[Toasty]

I'd rather not revive the old religion topic because there was far too much flaming, and this one has a bit of a different purpouse. This topic is for informing others about what exactly your religion is. Describe, to the best of your knowledge, what you believe in. But also, tell what you believe other religions are like. Don't force your opinions, tell them. This topic's sole purpouse is for other people to get a clearer picture of what other people believe, and what certain religions actually teach. I'll start off.

I'm a christian, and the basis of what I believe, is that there is a god. God has a son, named Jesus, who was the son of Marry. God did not have sex with Marry for this to happen. There is also the holy spirit. These make up the Holy Trinity: God the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. To be considered a christian, you have to believe that god exists, and the Jesus has died for your sins. If you do not believe that, you are not a christian. No amount of good deeds and whatnot will get you into heaven. The only thing that will get you there is believeing that god exists, and the Jesus, his son, has died for your sins. However, you are expected to be a good person. Even if you aren't, you can still go to heaven as long as you truely believe in god. The more you live for god in your life on earth, the more "jewels on your crown," for lack of a better description, you will recieve once you get to heaven. Christians are expected to generally be good people, and sin as little as possible. However, everyone on earth has sinned. The only being to set foot on this planet and not sin, is Jesus himself. Jesus came to forgive our sins so that we may be able to go to heaven.

Judgement day, the day when god brings all believers into heaven, will happen once at least one person from every tribe and every nation has heard the word of god. At this point, there really aren't many people left to preach to, so according to the bible, it's quite possible that God will return sometime soon. However, it all depends on how quickly we reach those people. On Judgement day, a huge earthquake will split the earth in two. That, however, is only the beginning of things worse to come. One of wich will spoil 2/3 of earth's water supply, another of wich will spoil 2/3 of earth's food supply. It's been a while since I read up on this in Revelations (the last book of the bible which describes all this) but I believe that after 7 years, God will return to save anyone else who might have converted to christianity in that time. During that 7 years, however, life for any christians who have converted will be very hard. An Anti-Christ will rise up and become a sort of "Ruler of the World," and sometime after he does, all nations will attack Israel.

But also, there are many things that the bible has predicted, that have actually happened in our lifetime. Now of course, there are many ways for people to refute that these things were predicted, or to say that they were easy to predict because they were bound to happen, but there are many predictions that are presice to the exact day of occurence. Many of these are actually hidden in the bible, and you would not see them simply by reading through it. Christian scientists and mathmeticians have actually discovered a "bible code" of sorts that depicts such things as President Regan's assasination. I'd love to go into more details, but I have to find my source again.

And that's a brief outline of what a christian is, believes in, and a few other things.

So, go ahead and tell us what you believe in.


[EDIT] I was on myspace just a bit ago, and I found this piece of a bulliten one of my friends posted interesting:

Quote

.....God vs. Science

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

[Split Infinity]

Yeeaahh...I don't really feel like reading a bible remix whenever I look in here.

[Toasty]

Then this isn't the topic for you. Please, if you aren't going to say anything relative to the topic, don't say anything at all.

[Split Infinity]

But what was wrong with the other topics that wouldn't just be emulated here?

[Someone Else]

God and religion may have been created 5000 years ago as a way to explain the world. Now we have science to explain nearly every perceivable topic.

Religion just feels "outdated" to me.

[gsninja]

Religion's never going to be outdated for me. Science can perceive many things, but not everything. I remember watching a program on the History channel. The host of the show was trying to "decipher the Bible" with scientific explanations. That really annoyed me. Science can't accurately explain EVERYTHING.

[Someone Else]

Yeah, I don't think science will ever prove how existence came to be. Similarly, I don't like how The Bible says God created the universe either. I felt something was fishy in "Genesis".

I'm still agnostic. D: You can't disprove that God exists.

[Neo]

There is no way you can prove or disprove the existance of God, that it why it is called Faith. People believe, meaning they do not know. If we would know God existed, there would be no faith.

Science is based upon theories, and they are defined as facts, until a better theory comes along and we replace the facts and truths. Both Faith and Science are ways to describe how everything around us exists, and how everything began. Faith and Science cannot be compared in any way, except for one thing; what was there before the beginning.

None can explain, not faith nor science. And that is why both are not trustworthy. I myself believe in theories, as they are the results of years of research and high-tech equipment. Most of our theories are "proven", most are in fact true. Most cannot be denied, even by non-atheists.

Then we return to the old question; what to believe. According to the bible, the earth was created within 6 days (plus one day of rest). Meaning man and creature lived side by side directly after eachother. But then there is science. It has been proven that animals have lived millions of years before even the first primal sapiens came to existance. So, again, I ask; what to believe.

I myself, as an atheist, cannot understand how believers can fully trust the bible, as we know that it was "forged" by the romans. We do not know how much they changed, how much they removed to included. How can a believer continue to deny that science is overal seen trustworthy.

Yes, now some may say that the 7 days represent something like 7 million years. But then again, it does not fit within the puzzle. The time between the creation of land, and the first living creatures simply does not fit within the "7 days/7 million years theory".

--

Evil is the absence of God? No, evil is evil. If there is no Evil, there is no Good. "Good" cannot exist without "Evil", nor can dark exist without light. There must be death, as there is life. These are opposites, and if one side of the opposite would not exist, the other cannot exist either. Think about that.

[Split Infinity]

That's a brilliant explanation there, Neo. That really made a lot of sense to me.

[Ironsight]

Im sort of a Christian i guess. But I've never been to Church before, and I dont beleive that God made humans, rather, i think that God created the bacteria that eventualy evolved into the firts lifeforms. I also dont beleive that God made the universe. Im not exactly sure how what I think I guess.

[Eugine]

Imma Christian ^___^. Though I've stopped defend or promote my faith so long ago. People can believe whatever they want.

[Blue]

Yeah, I'm christian. I go to church once in awhile, but I mostly go to my church's college group. Before most people would think that I'm the good little christian boy, but I hated it. Now I am my own person, but I still have god and Jesus. I feel the bible and church though is just extra, it's there when your confused. I find it funny though, I never read the bible much but when there's discusion about certain things, I usually help people figure out the bottom line. It always surprises me.

Any ways, I believe Jesus is the son of god, died for our sins, and rose from the grave. I do believe in Hell, it exists. I believe in Demons, ask one of my friends, she was exorcised. It helped her a lot too. I do believe though that there is often confusion about demon possesion and scytzophrenia. One of my mothers friends was thought to have been possessed, but a psych from the church studied her and found out that she just need medication. I believe in angels and miracles, cuz, hey, there has been some crazy stuff that has happened that really can't be explained. If I think of anything else I'll let you guys know.

[Nyktos]

Agnostic atheist. I believe that there could be a god, that it's theoretically possible, and I sure as hell wouldn't say "there is not god," but at the same time, I also believe that the concept of a god is inherently flawed and simply doesn't make sense. I also believe that morals are a human construct designed to force one's beliefs on others, but at the same time acknowledge that humans need morals.

I'm tempted to write a response completely shredding the quote in the OP, but I won't, because frankly I've debated religion often enough to realize that it's impossible to convince someone that they're wrong if you're arguing based on facts and they're arguing based on faith.

[Laharl]

me is atheist, me also got many warns in the old religion topic XD

The western religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) dont interest me in the slightest, they just use their faith as an excuse to be at each others throats and commit atrocities.

More a fan of the Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism who dont lynch those not of the correct faith, have a greater sense of spirituality about them and are generally a lot more peaceful

[Moonear]

Laharl, you are completely wrong about Islam. We are taught not to exclude others, but to invite them to our religion. It's called Da'wah. There are only few Muslim people that go around suicide bombing and making videos about how they're going to exterminate the Jews and Christians and make war with nonbelievers. Islam is a religion of peace, and we believe in one God. These terrorists have brought us a bad name and we are not happy about it. Islam does not condone any act of violence. When Judgement day comes, I think that all these horrible people will be called on their actions and will be sent to the Hellfire.

[Folcon]

As I've said before (I think), I don't take part in any established religion, I just live my life the way I see fit. Regardles of weathe there is a Heaven and Hell, and where I might go if there is, I worry about living my life for the "here and now" as opposed to the "Hereafter." I just don't see why I should conform to what other people say about religion and change my way of thinking to get into some hypothitcal paradise. Heck, I'm more interested in the 'heathen' religions of the old school world. i love the old Greek and Norse gods. In some cases I almost worship them considering how much mythology I read. But the simple fact is, I live my life not but the docterns of religion, but by what my heart says. I follow the golden rule and treat others the way I want to be treated and I live by the Scout Law which states, "A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Curtious, Kind, Obediant, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reveerent." This is what I live by, and how I live, and while I respect other religions and have studied them in high school, I have no real religious beleafs. Regardless of wether there is a Hevean or Hell awaiting us after death, or just oblivion, I'll live my life the way I want to and not worry about untill my time comes. Besides, as a race known as the Kender, which exist in the Dragonlance series say, "Death is nothing more then the first step of the next great adventure."

[Platinum Sun]

Mainly I'm posting because that college quote was impressive and it will be with me for a long time. (And because Toasty and I have had "disagreements" regarding religion in the past, so I'd like to see how our perspectives have evolved.) Regardless, here's my philosophy condensed into post form:

Personally I am among, if not the world's biggest skeptic. I don't really believe in what the bible says from a historical perspective. I place too high a value on logic to believe that any of that stuff actually happened. Yet the Bible's description of God and the principles of living that those stories are meant ot extol; those I can get behind. For some reason I believe that there is some higher power out there. It might not be your god, the God, or even a god, but there's something. From what Toasty says, that makes me not a christian and there's a chair waiting for me in hell. If that's how it is then so be it. God gave me intelligence and a respect for imperical thought. If that takes me to hell, then I am doing his work.

[Someone Else]

Nyktos, on Oct 29 2007, 07:08 PM, said:

Agnostic atheist. I believe that there could be a god, that it's theoretically possible, and I sure as hell wouldn't say "there is not god," but at the same time, I also believe that the concept of a god is inherently flawed and simply doesn't make sense. I also believe that morals are a human construct designed to force one's beliefs on others, but at the same time acknowledge that humans need morals.

I feel the same way, but you could actually put it in words. :P I've been brought up to have mostly "Good" morals, but at the same time I'm not very religious or spiritual for that matter.

If there is Heaven, and Heaven accepted people who had good morals but still weren't spiritual, I'd be one who was accepted. Of course, The Bible would say otherwise... but just sayin'.

[Ironsight]

I honestly dont know enough about christianity. It's sad I know. I've never been to church before. So I realy don't know what I am. I'll still call myself a Christian though.

[Laharl]

ihatekraden, on Oct 30 2007, 07:30 PM, said:

Laharl, you are completely wrong about Islam. We are taught not to exclude others, but to invite them to our religion. It's called Da'wah. There are only few Muslim people that go around suicide bombing and making videos about how they're going to exterminate the Jews and Christians and make war with nonbelievers. Islam is a religion of peace, and we believe in one God. These terrorists have brought us a bad name and we are not happy about it. Islam does not condone any act of violence. When Judgement day comes, I think that all these horrible people will be called on their actions and will be sent to the Hellfire.

somehow i'm thinking i'm not, does Islam say to worship only Allah and is that not disregarding other faiths? Suicide bombings have nothing to with my view, such actions are not commited by Jews ir Christians yet i still condemn the two faiths. You assume i dislike Islam because of this, too many muslims use this a shield to defend their religion. In practice Islam encourages worship the Allah and discourages belief in other faiths. Your last sentence is something i'd expect to see in mythology, not something that has been spoonfed to the masses and is widely believed.

Take this however you want, if you're offended i really couldnt give a damn.

[Eugine]

As my education and my reflection continues, my views on Christianity and organised religion is slowly changing. Recently, I have even told myself to be spiritual, but not religious because of countable historical evils of Christianity.

Let me explain why my views are slowly changing.

Firstly, I have African ancestry, meaning my ancestors were forcibly converted to an European religion. I have no reason to be a Christian when considering culture. Too bad Europeans did a marvelous jop on brainwashing my ancestors. Secondly, Christianity was used to justify slavery. I do not want to be part of any religion which justifies slavery.

Moving on from race.
Churches seem so much of a company rather than a place of comfort in this day and age. The leaders seem so hypocritical, and far from a true believer in God. With recent stories such as pastors buying expensive cars, going on trips with Church money, you begin to wonder.

Anyway, I have no problem with religion. I honestly believe it's a cohesive force which holds the world together... but recently I have come to the conclusion that I have no reason to follow any specific religion.

Btw, officially I'm still a rogue Christian. I know in about 10 years most likely I'll just be spiritual.

[Toasty]

I couldn't find the religion topic, so I thought I'd post this here.

The bible predicted, 2,500 years ago, that some day Israel would once again become a nation. 60 or so years ago, that happened. It also predicted that some day Russia (or whatever country it was 2500 years ago) would form an alliance with Iran (or whatever country IT was 2500 years ago). Putin, Russia's leader, is, or already has, signed a multi billion dollar weapons treaty with Iran, thus makeing them allies.

It also says that Babylon (present day Iraq) will become the wealthiest, powerfulist, most peaceful nation in the end of times, but will shortly thereafter be thrown in to complete peril. Well, despite what many believe, Iraq is already on its way. You can actually drive around Iraq safely without the need of military escort.

It also stated that there would be an invisible mark that would distinguish christians from non-christians. Scientists/engineers have developed an RFID chip, similar to that used to locate lost pets, that would store all of your important informaiton (credit card numbers, social security number, etc.) in it, and allow you to be located. They intend for it to be implanted into people's hands. No one would be able to see it, but it'd definately be there. How non-christians would be distinguished from christians with it is beyond me, but something tells me that there'd be something in the paperwork needed to get one implanted that would turn christians away.
Who knows.

But the first prophecy I listed HAS happened, and WAS predicted in the bible 2500 years ago. The second is either about to happen, or has happened, and was predicted around the same time as the first.

You can't tell me that's a coincidence. Both were predictions in the bible that were there long before either event happened, and though the descriptions in the bible are a bit vague, it's blatantly obvious that these predictions came, or definately will come true.

Also, the bible doesn't mention anythign about America during the end times, meaning that America will likely not have much influence on the rest of the world, militarily or politically. Well, our country is on it's way towards collapse, and nobody seems to be doing anything about it. Only talking at the most.


I just thought that this would be some interesting information to read.

[Ironsight]

I say that America and China will someday go to war. By your logic, if I'm right I'm jesus' second incarnation.

[Eugine]

Did you write that Toasty? If yes, sources plz =)
Actually just gimme some sources regardless (as in the Bible verses which predicts)

[kate]

Nostradamus made a bunch of predictions that came true, so is he God?

Oh and yesterday I predicted that I would fail my chem exam and I totally did. I'm not saying you all should worship me, but I highly recommend it.

Jewish ftw. Except for the bacon thing. That kinda sucks.

[Toasty]

DS, what does that have to do with this? The bible was written by Jesus's desciples, along with other followers of god. Technically speaking, the predictions that were made before christ's birth and after his death came from them, but god was the one who told them. Obviously, none of them were the second incarnation.

Eugine, on Apr 25 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

Did you write that Toasty? If yes, sources plz =)
Actually just gimme some sources regardless (as in the Bible verses which predicts)

Don't know the exact verses, but obviously revelations has some. Besides that, Ezekiel, Psalms, Daniel (chapter 9 has something, there might be more), and Thesselonians has stuff on the rapture. Matthew has verses on where Jesus gave the desciples some signs of what will happen in the end of days. These predictions are likely to be found near the end of Matthew.

And Nostredamus did make predictions, and some of them did come true, but many of them were very similar to predictions already found in the bible. Though his prediction that the king of france would be killed in a jousting tournament 4 years before it happened was correct, it was far more vague than the predictions in the bible.

There was another guy who was around in the late 1900's who was psychic, but he was only actually able to use his 'powers' for good. I.E if someone asked him somethign related to the health of a loved one, he would be able to do it with ease. If it was for something more selfish, like which stocks to put money in, he wouldn't be able to do it.

[Laharl]

Toasty, i hate to break this to you, but the bible was written around 500 AD. So unless it has a time machine, its very difficult to make predictions 2500 years

[Split Infinity]

Toasty, on Apr 26 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

There was another guy who was around in the late 1900's who was psychic, but he was only actually able to use his 'powers' for good. I.E if someone asked him somethign related to the health of a loved one, he would be able to do it with ease. If it was for something more selfish, like which stocks to put money in, he wouldn't be able to do it.

Toasty, on Apr 20 2008, 12:57 PM, said:

Besides, if people were psychic, then scientists and doctors would's already found that out. They'd be able to notice changes in the brain's wave patterns when "communicating" to other people.

There's a conflict occurring here.

[kate]

There's a level of hell for people who claim to see the future. Seer's, psychics, whatever. So if this guy was using his powers for good that seems kinda unfair. Somehow I don't think an omnipotent being would be that jealous of what His little ants are doing.

Has anyone pointed out that while I'm sure some of the bible is true, some of the books were probably just written by guys on alot of acid?

Oh and revelations. Funny stuff. "and then the thunder said some stuff but I can't tell you what it was because....God told me not to. Yeah."

[Toasty]

Split, those are two different things. One is communicating between people "psychicly" and the other is predicting the future. Two completely different things.

Laharl, on Apr 26 2008, 01:47 AM, said:

Toasty, i hate to break this to you, but the bible was written around 500 AD. So unless it has a time machine, its very difficult to make predictions 2500 years

That might've been when all of the books were finally put together, but as for when these predictions were written, that was about 2500 years ago.

And kate, I have no idea what it's all about. The bible says that no one can predict the future, only god. Therefor, those who seem to predict the future are either demon possesed, or being told the future by god (as in the people who wrote the books of the bible). Not sure where this guy fits in.

And besides all of that, it doesn't change the fact the bible specifically said that Israel would once again become a nation before it actually happened. It also said that [Russia] and [Iran] would beome allies, and they have.

You can't tell me that that's all just a coincidence.

[Split Infinity]

Toasty, on Apr 27 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Split, those are two different things. One is communicating between people "psychicly" and the other is predicting the future. Two completely different things.

I didn't say anything about communication, just psychic in general.

As for activities in Iran, I don't believe them to be coincidences; rather, actions that could have been influenced by the Bible itself.

[Toasty]

Split, the bible didn't influence Putin to put forewad an arms treaty with Iran. As far as I know, he doesn't read the bible.

[Split Infinity]

Where exactly does it say this in the Bible, anyway?

[Eugine]

Yeah, I'm taking those stuff with a grain of salt until I can see the verses. Oh, and I think Russians are Christians.

[kate]

Yeah, they are eug. And toasty, yes I can tell you they're coincidences. They're coincedences. Bam, just did it. Look, I'm sure it's very freaky that they predicted something and then it happened, but the world is vast and in 2500 years (or so you say) a couple of things they predicted were bound to happen. It's just probability. Just like despite the odds, some people do win the lottery.

I'm not saying God didn't tell some people some stuff and then it totally happened. That would be awesome because the world's kinda lost it's faith these days and a sign from God would be nice. Still, it's not indisputable evidence unfortunately. An angel coming and saying "yo guys, get your act together. Srsly." Would be evidence, this is just classified under spooky coinkydink. That being said, faith is all about reading into things in your own way and choosing to believe something despite there being no hard evidence, so you can go ahead a believe that this is proof. It's just not proof that will change the thinking of anyone =/

Just wondering, did you happen to find any verses that predicted things in the Americas? Or what about Australia? See one of my issues with this is that it's predicting things in the middle-east/eastern Europe. Considering at the time that's all the people thought existed in the world, it seems too convenient that God, who would have known that the America's existed, would only give prophecies about the middle-east. If it were about America, that would prove it wasn't just some guy making it up, because he couldn't have known about America. I dunno...I hope you do find something actually.

[Laharl]

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z254/laharl_the_slayer_07/1203781626177.gif

[Toasty]

Tell you all what. When Iraq becomes the most powerful nation in the world, will you all believe me then? The bible predicts that Babylon (Iraq) will be rebuilt and become the world power. So if that happens, then will any of you take these predictions with more than a grain of salt?

And Eugine, I listed the books where these predictions could be found.

[kate]

iraq...the nation that is currently war torn without any semblance of a stable government. The place that America has finally admitted they are completely fscked when it comes to finding a solution for it. That world power? Yeah ok I will believe the predictions if that happens, if you agree to admit the predictions are wrong if it doesn't happen. Of course you have the upper hand here because you can just say it will happen eventually.

Oh and you didn't answer my question, were there any predictions made about places outside europe and the middle-east?

[Laharl]

@Toasty: my mind hurts trying to figure out how your's works. seriously. you spout nonsense and not only believe it yourself, but expect others to do the same :/

[Toasty]

And I'm not the first person to be told something like that from someone like you.

[kate]

lol, think about it this way toasty, if it turns out you're right and there is a God, then you get to laugh at laharl and tell him 'I told you so'. If it turns out laharl is right and there isn't a God, then he gets to la-oh no wait, he doesn't get to do anything because he'll never even know he was right since there isn't anything after death...yay.

Meanwhile I sit back and laugh at both people who try to change others to believe in something they refuse to, and people who claim to believe in nothing when really it's just to cover up their fear.

By the way you still haven't answered my question, but that's fine, I don't really care anymore. Now let's talk about how we all came from adam and eve and the incest involved in that :P

[Toasty]

I'm not trying to convert anybody in particular. I put this out there to read, and to be interpreted in your own ways. I don't expect to convert Laharl, as he's hard-core athiest.

I'm actually not very surprised by anyone's response.

[Split Infinity]

Once again, I completely agree with Kate (how do you do that? XD). The Bible predicts a lot of things, so over the course of two millenia some of them are bound to happen. An alliance between two random nations really isn't that incredible or unbelievable...

And you still haven't answered my question.

[Toasty]

Toasty, on Apr 25 2008, 11:34 PM, said:

Don't know the exact verses, but obviously revelations has some. Besides that, Ezekiel, Psalms, Daniel (chapter 9 has something, there might be more), and Thesselonians has stuff on the rapture. Matthew has verses on where Jesus gave the desciples some signs of what will happen in the end of days. These predictions are likely to be found near the end of Matthew.

And 2500 years isn't that much time if you go on the belief of the universe being made billions of years ago.

Sure, there's a chance that this could've randomly happened, and there's a chance that all the other "coincidences" could've just randomly happened. But as each prophecy in the bible is fulfilled, the chances that these just randomly happened become far slimmer.

Honestly. What are the chances that all of the predictions that have come true so far, could've been predicted by the bible? And on top of that, the fact that they WERE predicted by the bible, and that they happened, has to have some kind of meaning. Doesn't it?

[Split Infinity]

Elaborate on these other coincidences...

[Toasty]

Any predictions that are found in the bible that have been proven to have come true. Like the rebuilding of Israel, the seven day war where pretty much everyone surrounding Israel attacked at once, the arms treaty between the Russians and the Iranians, and Iraq recently stated that they were trying to gather their ancient cultural artificats so they can become a cultural gathering center os sorts. Interpret it as you will, but that sounds a lot like the beginning of the rebuilding of Babylon depicted in the bible to me.

Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 has the prediction of Iran and Russia making a pact. And Russia and Iran have NEVER been interested in eachother. Not in the past 2500 years at least.

[kate]

Israel, Iran, Iraq, Russia. What about, gee, I dunno, the most important superpower in the world today? Any predictions about the US? What about Japan, anything about their awesome video game producing powers or does God only like to focus on political treaties. What about the holocaust? You'd think he'd give some warning to the chosen people before 90% of them were obliterated from Poland. Convenient that 2500 years ago they didn't know about those areas of the world, some might say it's a coincidence. And since coincidences hold such huge significance to you, would you care to explain that?

[Eugine]

Toasty I heard lots of Bible prophecies, but never really researched them. Since I am a natural skeptic (don't ask me why I believe in God, and is Christian despite being a skeptic plz lolz. I just feel complete when I do. x.x) can I get the specific verses plz? I'll really like to talk to some well informed Christians about this, and saying "near the end of Matthew" isn't really specific x.x

I should do some research on this...

[Toasty]

Well I'm too lazy to find a bible and the verses myself sooo....XD

I'll see if I can find the verses. If I can't find them myself, I'll ask my pastor.

[Gio]

kate, on Apr 28 2008, 07:27 PM, said:

Israel, Iran, Iraq, Russia. What about, gee, I dunno, the most important superpower in the world today? Any predictions about the US? What about Japan, anything about their awesome video game producing powers or does God only like to focus on political treaties. What about the holocaust? You'd think he'd give some warning to the chosen people before 90% of them were obliterated from Poland. Convenient that 2500 years ago they didn't know about those areas of the world, some might say it's a coincidence. And since coincidences hold such huge significance to you, would you care to explain that?

I do believe some where in the bible it talks about a the fall of a western super power. I think that is pretty easy to figure out what country is going to fall.

[Laharl]

that "Western superpower" is mostly likely Rome

[Eugine]

Continuing with Laharl's point, most of the time people associate events in their lifetime with predictions. I watched a documentary which said if you look at ancient predictions, you can basically associate them with any generation x.x

I heard a prediction that Nostradamus predicted a black guy will eventually become President of USA and that he is the antichrist.
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&amp...stradamus+obama

[Laharl]

damn, some of those are gold Eugine XD

my personal favourite

"Aprile" said:

I think Obama is the anti-christ a lot of people support this clown, but his time is not yet. Hillary will win and then in 2012 Obama will return and the people will trust him more. After he wins, not only things in the USA will change, but in the world. The democrats are said to serve 3 terms, until 2016, then who knows. But hey, let's just wait if things written on the bible do happen. The 9/11/2001 is written in the bible among other catastrophies, including the mountain (asteroid) that is coming to the USA. Scientists say its coming to New York City, but in the bible it speaks that it's going to land in the ocean.

"Paul B" said:

How did you escape the lunatic asylum?

never has the line between sanity and madness been more obvious XD

[kate]

Omg, I didn't know these prophecies were so unspecific as to say "a western superpower will fall"...Yeah it's obvious that it's talking about america because america is the superpower. What about when Britain was a superpower, then it could be interpreted as western Europe.

Which brings up another matter, if the prophecy was "Russia" under the name that it was back then and "Iran" under the name back then would form some sort of deal, why didn't God say: Russia and Iran will trade arms, yeah I know you don't know what that means yet but it's a prophecy so you don't have to. If it wasn't going to happen until now, why use the names they were called back then?

[Zeypher]

Religion was created by the Man to control the people of the land.

I'm not sure what I believe...I'm agnostic or something like that.

[Gio]

kate, on Apr 29 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

Omg, I didn't know these prophecies were so unspecific as to say "a western superpower will fall"...Yeah it's obvious that it's talking about america because america is the superpower. What about when Britain was a superpower, then it could be interpreted as western Europe.

I think your right. It is supposed to be America, and it says that in revalation. That means it will be towards the end times and I think we can all agree that fall of Britain as a superpower wasn't followed by the end times.

kate, on Apr 29 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

Which brings up another matter, if the prophecy was "Russia" under the name that it was back then and "Iran" under the name back then would form some sort of deal, why didn't God say: Russia and Iran will trade arms, yeah I know you don't know what that means yet but it's a prophecy so you don't have to. If it wasn't going to happen until now, why use the names they were called back then?

Because God worked through the people who wrote the bible with visions, and these people wouldn't know the future names of these places just by seeing visions that were put in their head.

[kate]

did their visions involve a map? How else would they know what place they were looking at anyways? How would they know about the fall of a western superpower if they didn't know about the west? And if God was just like "it's some place in the west", couldn't he have named it or the other places?

and are you saying our world is going to end once America falls? Really? Wow, this must be the only generation that has thought the world was going to end after some event. Oh, no wait, try every generation. Like y2k, some christians said that was going to be the end. Not so much.

and once again, why only these political things? Why not the holocaust? Why not Hiroshima?

I have no problem with people having visions and prophecies and whatnot. You trying to explain them is what bugs me. Whatever happened to "God works in mysterious ways". Now apparently he's all figured out because you guys have answers for everything. Stop trying to prove faith. It's called faith for a reason and frankly I think you lessen it by trying to add some element of evidence to it. What God did he did for certain reasons, all of which we can't expect to understand. And you know what? If this prophecy thing is all a load of hooey and was just some guys on shrooms, heck if the whole bible is wrong, that doesn't make God any less real. So stop baiting the atheists, because they've got the advantage in these situations. You have your faith. Stop spewing about it.

[Gio]

Not once did I try to prove my faith. Like you say it is called faith for a reason. I choose to live by my faith a show my faith through the way I live my life.

Gio, on Apr 29 2008, 08:16 PM, said:

I think your right. It is supposed to be America, and it says that in revalation. That means it will be towards the end times and I think we can all agree that fall of Britain as a superpower wasn't followed by the end times.

I told you what the bible said and then By saying this I stated what I think. It may be true it may not be, but in no way did I try to prove anything. I gave a part of the bible, I stated how i interpreted that part, but in no way did I try and prove it.

Btw I am not spewing anything.
You asked a question

Quote

(kate @ Apr 28 2008, 07:27 PM) *
Israel, Iran, Iraq, Russia. What about, gee, I dunno, the most important superpower in the world today? Any predictions about the US? What about Japan, anything about their awesome video game producing powers or does God only like to focus on political treaties. What about the holocaust? You'd think he'd give some warning to the chosen people before 90% of them were obliterated from Poland. Convenient that 2500 years ago they didn't know about those areas of the world, some might say it's a coincidence. And since coincidences hold such huge significance to you, would you care to explain that?

Quote

I do believe some where in the bible it talks about a the fall of a western super power. I think that is pretty easy to figure out what country is going to fall.

and I answered

[kate]

lol I actually wasn't talking about you Gio, you're pretty cool when it comes to religion. I didn't mean to be offensive either, just Toasty said "you can't claim this is coincidence" indicating that it was factual evidence. I don't think factual evidence applies to religion, that's all

[Gio]

kate, on Apr 29 2008, 09:32 PM, said:

lol I actually wasn't talking about you Gio, you're pretty cool when it comes to religion. I didn't mean to be offensive either, just Toasty said "you can't claim this is coincidence" indicating that it was factual evidence. I don't think factual evidence applies to religion, that's all

I is sorry I gots so defensive then.

[Toasty]

Both the hollocaust and hiroshima were predicted in the bible. There was a verse somewhere depicting peoples faces melting off. Well, people's faces DID melt in hiroshima. If their faces didn't, their eyes did. I can't remember the specifics of the one depicting the hollocaust though.

And Kate, obviously there's going to be people from all sorts of religions that will believe the end of the world will come from some recent even. Just because SOME christians thought that Y2K was the apocalypse, doesn't mean they ALL did.

Anyway, some of these predictions can only be found in the origiona hebrew version of the bible because of the exact symbols used. When put into a single strand, the old testament 304,805 (hebrew) letters long. Using skip code (i.e. skipping only a certain number of letters, like cirlcing every third letter in a sentance to find a hidden message, for example), predictions like WWI, WWII, even the kennedy assasination, all are found in the bible doing this. It's not like they're randomly placed either. The symbols for each word are spaced evenly apart, and when the single line of symbols is arranged so that the words create a crossword, of sorts, other information relating to the event, or person, is revealed.

If you don't believe me, read a book called "The Bible Code" by Michael Drosnin, who claims to be a non-religious reporter. Or at least he wrote it from a non-religious point of view.

Wikipedia article describing it

Here's the book on Amazon
It's a pdf file of sorts, and it has all 274 pages of it. Free to read.

[Eugine]

Oh yeah Toasty! I watched a documentary on the Bible Code. It was REALLY freaky. It was really accurate x.x
I suggest reading (or watching it) x.x
It was honestly non-biased, it showed the flaws of the Bible Code also.
And I agree with everyone here (and sort of Zeyp). I do believe religion is a form of control =)

[Toasty]

Religion can be used as a form of control (i.e. the recent incident in Texas), but I rarely find that to be the case.

And I found a few websites with a lot of information that trys to disprove the bible code, but I can't confirm whether what is said is the truth or not, as I don't have the programs used to find the events/names listed in the bible, or in Moby **** (which supposedly is used as prrof that "any book can be used to 'predict' future events," as moby **** has in it's text refrences to the assasinations of many famous people hidden in code).

Likewise, I can't prove myself that any events were predicted by the bible using this code, as again, I don't have the program to do so.

I'd like to get a hold of it though.

[kate]

I'm just saying, you can't claim that "people's faces melting off" is the same as "oh dudes there's going to be nuclear weapons that will be used to bomb a city in Japan at the end of WWII". At least you can't claim that and then turn around and tell us we can't claim it's all coincidence. To each his own. As much as it's possible that God gave these people visions, it's possible they were on hallucinogenic drugs that made them think God gave them visions.

The code in the Bible is fricken awesome, but codes have been made up by mathematicians in a billion different forms and somehow I don't think God gave them visions of how to make them. Heck standard galactic alphabet is a code and Commander Keen taught me that, not God. Although Commander Keen is pretty high up there.

[Laharl]

last time i checked, people melted when they came into contact with lava. Once again it is much more likely to b refering to a volcanic eruption rather than a nuclear blast in a country that wouldnt be discovered by westerners till the 1800s

[Split Infinity]

Toasty, on Apr 30 2008, 01:15 PM, said:

Religion can be used as a form of control (i.e. the recent incident in Texas), but I rarely find that to be the case.

It was the only case for a good chunk of the Middle Ages. Non-believers were slaughtered for their sins, people like Galileo were treated as criminals, and what the hey, they decided to throw in a witchhunt or two as well. Those foul temptresses we known as women...surely they must be hiding something behind their black cats and oversized cauldrens!

And despite all this, they eventually found out that the Church was just a mob of corrupt priests who were in it for the money. They practically went to people's houses asking for donations, supposedly guaranteeing them entry to Heaven. The world is a much better place when you have choice.

[Eugine]

Anything which has limitless control is deadly anyway. No one can justify the crimes Christianity has done though x.x

[Gio]

not many crimes can be justified.

[kate]

Whiiich is why I love religion and hate organized religion.

[Toasty]

Split, that's one reason why those were called "The dark ages." There were other things that made those times bad, but that was one of them.

I'm not going to deny that it's true that all that happened back then, but it doesn't happen very often nowadays, other than a few incidents now and then, and religious extremeists who completely blow their religion's standings out of proportion.

Laharl, on Apr 30 2008, 02:22 AM, said:

last time i checked, people melted when they came into contact with lava. Once again it is much more likely to b refering to a volcanic eruption rather than a nuclear blast in a country that wouldnt be discovered by westerners till the 1800s

Last time I checked, lava has never been used as a weapon, other than pushing people into it.

Now you're just trying to find even the smallest things to try and disprove this.

The nuclear bomb is the only weapon known to man to melt people's faces off by the masses.

[Split Infinity]

Who ever said that a weapon was involved? How do you know they're not just suffering in the fires of Hell? Or maybe, like Eugine has said before, it's simply a metaphor?

Sorry, but an obscure verse pulled out of the Bible doesn't prove anything.

[Laharl]

Toasty, on May 1 2008, 07:35 AM, said:

Now you're just trying to find even the smallest things to try and disprove this.

if you say so

perhaps you should stop warping obscure references to fit your own beliefs

[kate]

ooooh snap! He's right though, if you're going to claim an obscure reference is proof of God, we can nitpick. Or should we just blindly accept it because you told us to? Would you accept a physics formula to hold true universally if it wasn't proved?

[Golden Legacy]

Toasty, on May 1 2008, 02:35 AM, said:

The nuclear bomb is the only weapon known to man to melt people's faces off by the masses.

Go to this link, click CTRL + F, and type in 'melt'. See if you can handle it first off, and secondly, to show that nuclear bombs aren't the only such weapons.

That said, I think Kate said it remarkably well - trying to "interpret" God's language with actual "evidence" seems to lessen the pure, benevolent faith and emotion in God.

[Eugine]

That site really hates Israel.

http://www.goldensun-syndicate.net/forum/i...?showtopic=8611
... lol, wow. I was really biased back then weren't I? (probably sill is)

[Golden Legacy]

For some reason, I couldn't link to the image alone, so I had to link the entire site.

And no, just saying ahead of time that we are NOT having a Palestine/Israel debate here, revive that older topic you linked to if you want to discuss it.

[Caael]

Golden Legacy, on May 4 2008, 09:51 PM, said:

Go to this link, click CTRL + F, and type in 'melt'. See if you can handle it first off, and secondly, to show that nuclear bombs aren't the only such weapons.

That said, I think Kate said it remarkably well - trying to "interpret" God's language with actual "evidence" seems to lessen the pure, benevolent faith and emotion in God.

O_O

Wow...that site...it speaks to me like nothing before...why are these things happening...i'm at loss for words

[Zeypher]

If Caael has that reaction...I'm afraid to click that link >.>

[Ironsight]

tl;dr

[Golden Legacy]

I didn't mean to post the whole thing to be read, like I said. I was answering Toasty's point about weapons with the capability to "melt"... it was a trivial point really. If I could have just posted the image, I would have.

That said, the article IS worth a look-through when you have time, it really blew me away.


That said, back on topic, about religion.

I'm Muslim. Always have been. I do have Christian blood in me as well, and for my own curiosity I've attended mass before. I also consider myself to be spiritual in nature, which has always complemented my faith as well.

[Eugine]

Well, I was grown up in a very diverse family actually (well, in terms of religion)
My mom is Christian (pentecostal) while my dad is Atheist who tries to be religious and fails everytime.

I went to church until I was about 11 then stop for some reason, and since then, I honestly dunno which denomination to enter x.x
Gonna try the Catholic church this year, then if that doesn't work out, then I guess hard luck x.x

And I was Atheist at times lolz.

[Someone Else]

Atheist dad and Christian mom? Holy crap. :blink:

Still agnostic... ftl. Sometimes I WISH I were a believer but I just can't do it. I guess, a little bit like Eugine's dad. And yet I can't tell myself that everything just is by accident.

Thus, I'm agnostic.

[Ironsight]

Agnostic is what again?

[Someone Else]

Being agnostic means you don't think people can know whether God exists or not.

It's sort of a philosophy of doubt.

[Ironsight]

I see. I guess that means I'm Atheist now.

[kate]

Weeell my mom was protestant, now she's agnostic, and my dad is crazy anti religious. I think it's mostly out of fear and the way he was raised. I was atheist until I read the bible, then I was christian for several years. I attended Christmas mass but found it really cult-like (waaay too much chanting) so I didn't go again. Then after reading the new testament and seeing The Passion, I realized I didn't believe in the Christ part of Christianity, so I converted last year to Judaism. That being said, I don't celebrate hannukah or anything, since I don't like organized religion. Just if you ask me what I believe, it's easier to say I'm Jewish then to explain that I believe the same thing as jewish people but with some tweaks and without the ceremonies and whatnot.

and then they all begat some children and lived happily ever after. The End.

[Saturos S.]

Edit: Nevermind.

[Ironsight]

DarkSword, on May 4 2008, 09:30 PM, said:

I see. I guess that means I'm Atheist now.

Yup, Atheist.
The more I learned about it, the more stupid it sounded. One of the major things that turned me away from it was when I learned Christians beleive Women are ribs.

[Toasty]

What? What do you mean "women are ribs"?

[Caael]

Adam gave one of his ribs in exchange for eve...dont you know the story?

[Toasty]

Yeah, God took a rib from Adam and used it to create Eve. It doesn't mean we think women are ribs. Unless DS just forgot a few words there, it doesn't make any sense.

[Ironsight]

No, I didn't say you think women are ribs, I said that's what most Christians believe.

[Eugine]

Why do you act so condescending? I'm sorry, but I dislike Atheists like you who feel they are smarter than Christians because they see they finally seen the 'light' on how stupid the Bible is.
Continue to live in your bubble.

[Ironsight]

I never said I was any smarter than Toasty, or anyother Christian. Rib women is a little hard to take on faith for me, so I gave mine up.

[Eugine]

No you implied that you were smarter than every Christian alive.

Miley Cyrus, on Sep 24 2008, 01:48 AM, said:

The more I learned about it, the more stupid it sounded. One of the major things that turned me away from it was when I learned Christians beleive Women are ribs.

[Blue]

Why do we have any religious debates in this forum? The anti-christians here are all condescending and insulting, only using insults to back anything that they say. Any time some one says that Creationism has a point they just call them back water **** monkeys. No seriously, stop making Religion threads, its not worth talking about here anymore.

[Ironsight]

Eugine, on Sep 24 2008, 01:10 PM, said:

No you implied that you were smarter than every Christian alive.

Really? Then I must be using the wrong words, because I know that I'm not smarter than every christian alive. I'm not vain enough to say something like that on purpose.

[Toasty]

Most athiests I've crossed paths with thought they were smarter than christians. I don't think that's what DS meant though.

Anyway, I still don't get what you mean by "women are ribs". Are you referring to God taking one of Adam's ribs to make Eve, or something else?

[Ironsight]

Super Crazy Conservative White B, on Sep 24 2008, 11:20 PM, said:

Anyway, I still don't get what you mean by "women are ribs". Are you referring to God taking one of Adam's ribs to make Eve, or something else?

Yes, that's what I meant. The idea just didn't fit right in my mind. It sounded pretty unbelievable to me.

[Toasty]

Well, there's a lot of pretty unbelievable stuff in the bible. But it's believable if you believe that there's a God out there who can do anything.

Though a question arises: Why would God need to take a rib from Adam to make Eve?
My guess would be that it's to show that Men and Women come from the same being, the only differences being their gender. But that's my opinion.

Crazy? Yes. Impossible? Only if you don't believe in God.

[Split Infinity]

Guys, anyone who has a different opinion to someone else naturally thinks they're smarter. It's human nature, you dummies. :3