[Drizzy Drake]

A moment of silence plz.


Moment over, okay, who wants cake!! Time to celebrate!! LET'S SMOKE--oh, sorry I thought I was posting in Coz's leaving topic. Wat?? Is it inappropriate to joke about it?

Anywho, I know this is a bit late, but it's still technically the eleventh so..

I still can't believe it's been 7 years. I was 10. That seems like so long ago. This tragedy, like Pearl Harbour is a day that will live in infamy.

It probably effected someone here in a close way.

Talk about how 9/11 effected you, and anything else. Handled correctly? How did you react?

I would also like everybody's thery on who planned the crashes. Was it really suicide bombers hijacking the plane, or did Bush plan the second greatest hoax in history(behind 2pac faking his own death Machiavelli style, of course)? I believe in the conspiracy theory, because it's just so much more interesting. plus the official story has more holes in it than an Afgan. oh, and loose change for the win.

Wow, yay makes you ramble on.

[Split Infinity]

Not being infected by American patriotism, I got over it long ago.

[Toasty]

It was terrorists. There's no conspiracy here. Science can even explain the "missing plane" that crashed into the Pentagon.

ANYWAY.

I don't really remember anything about that day. Only stuff on the news during the following days.

On a side note, if the twoers were completely full, the death toll would have been about equal to my city's population.

[Gio]

It was a tragedy. I was in the 6th grade when it happened. I remember where I was and exactly what i was doing.

[Nosferatu]

I was waking up and not giving a ****. Huzzah for not changing!

[My Best Wishes]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 12 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

It was terrorists. There's no conspiracy here. Science can even explain the "missing plane" that crashed into the Pentagon.

Yes, because the fuel used in Aeroplanes is hot enough to completely erase solid steel, cause that hasn't been disproven.

I don't really care either way, may sound bad. Sure it's bad people died, but I just hate how America kept using it as an excuse to invade the Arabs. Plus it was either the Government or Saudi's.
*High-five for Loose Change*

[Mallick]

Wow, 7 years ago. I was 8. I remember waking up at about 8AM my time, I wandered into the living room and found my dad sitting in amazement watching the television set. He explained what had happened and told me I wasn't going to school that day. That was probably all I cared about at first; having a day off. Then I watched as they replayed footage. Planes crashing into the towers, workers readying themselves to jump out of their office windows. I think I cried. It was truly a scary experience.

But that's long passed now, September 11th is just another day in my books.

[Nosferatu]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 12 2008, 12:13 AM, said:

It was terrorists. There's no conspiracy here. Science can even explain the "missing plane" that crashed into the Pentagon.

I love how this passed me by.
And which science? The science that uses science, or the scientists that said so?

Actual science proved that the beams in the towers would not have melted. Please prove proper science wrong.

I was so hoping to get through today without having to talk with an idiot about 9/11.

[My Best Wishes]

Agreed. I knew this was bound to happen as soon as I saw this topic.

I just remember being pissed off that my cartoons where cancelled that morning. I would've been 11.
Funny though, I don't remember a single person mentioning it at school today.

[Nosferatu]

I was actually kinda hoping for this topic to be made so I can laugh at idiots. Ironic eh?

Also Toasty, Loose Change doesn't involve reading so it might not kill you to watch it.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Loos...emb=0&aq=f#

[Drizzy Drake]

Anonymous, on Sep 12 2008, 03:45 AM, said:

Wow, 7 years ago. I was 8. I remember waking up at about 8AM my time, I wandered into the living room and found my dad sitting in amazement watching the television set. He explained what had happened and told me I wasn't going to school that day. That was probably all I cared about at first; having a day off...

But that's long passed now, September 11th is just another day in my books.

Moi aussi*. I think I lost interest after the first or second aniversary. It was just kinda like; okay, we get it, it was ****ty, but there's worse things going on in the world. I know it may be "harsh", but it's true.

But really it was faked/planned by bush and his associates (cheney etc.), so the death count is really much lower than they what the "official" death count is.

Bring it on non-believers!!!

PS. stupid txt limit makes me have to delete parts of posts.

[Mallick]

Vanessa Hudgens, on Sep 12 2008, 01:10 AM, said:

Bring it on non-believers!!!

Vanessa Hudgens said:

us non-believers.

contradicshuns all ova da place

[Split Infinity]

What does melting girders have to do with anything?

[My Best Wishes]

Because 'the towers collapsed due to extreme heat causing the steel structure (girders) of the building to melt and give way'. But Aero fuel cannot reach a hot enough temperature to melt solid steel, let alone disentrigate an entire 747 that 'crashed' into the Pentagon, and that field in Hicksville.

[Split Infinity]

What's your point then, that they filled the engines with napalm or something?

[TheEnglishman]

I didn't know what the Twin towers were until they were gone. I was only 10 but I think even then I got an idea of how big the whole event was.
But I think that it's beginning to become an event in history now, as oppossed to a recent tragedy. A few years ago, there was a lot more commotion when the date rolled around, now it just seems like another Rememberance day.

[Split Infinity]

I didn't know what they were at the time either. I thought it was just a really bad plane accident, then people started talking about Osama and wars against terrorism and I just got confused. Even today I don't really understand what's going on in Iraq.

[Caael]

watch, on Sep 12 2008, 08:40 AM, said:

Yes, because the fuel used in Aeroplanes is hot enough to completely erase solid steel, cause that hasn't been disproven.

I don't really care either way, may sound bad. Sure it's bad people died, but I just hate how America kept using it as an excuse to invade the Arabs. Plus it was either the Government or Saudi's.
*High-five for Loose Change*

*Hi-fives*

Loose change is awesome, and incredibly interesting.

[Aquamarine]

This isn't the biggest tragedy in history, actually I wouldn't even consider this a "tragedy", so must there be a topic for it each year? Must I see crappy programs about this incident each year?

Anyhow, I'm not going to voice my opinion on 9/11. I believe it's better that way.

[Eugine]

After 7 years, anyone who believes in these crazy theories imo is just... crazy. There are so many President Bush defectors who are so eager to make some money or damage his administration, atleast one person would have been writing a book now.
Plus, with so many credible organisations such as Popular Mechanics who debunks these claims I can't believe there is still a "9/11 truther" movement.

Come on, President Bush couldn't keep safe the name of one CIA operative, or manage anything well in his administration, but you guys are assume he can keep this secret for 7 years without any slip ups. If this '9/11 conspiracy' theory turns out to be true (it wouldn't), he is by far the best President eva.

Honestly, it's a nice story, and interesting... but in reality, it's just false.

[Golden Legacy]

Keep the discussion civilized folks.
---

I'm from NYC. I was a few miles away from where the Towers hit. Middle school, I remember the announcement came on, no one really knew what to say. In fact, I think class just went on, but the teachers were obviously distressed. Many people didn't believe it, I'll admit I thought it was a joke at first, everything seemed oddly... normal.

Then, we went home, and that is where I saw it with my eyes on the news. My parents were distressed, they seemed more impacted by it than I was to be honest.


My high school is a 5 minute walk from where the Towers once stood. I used to pass by there every once in a while, it seemed so empty but also so simple now. I remember their being a picture in my biology class, 7th floor, with a photograph by the windowsill depicting how the WTC looked from that exact same classroom. That was probably the only time I ever felt impacted by it.

[Mallick]

What's uncivil about the discussion?

[Golden Legacy]

Just in the off-chance that things might erupt, more of a disclaimer is what I meant.

[Saturos S.]

I just came home from tennis practice, so I went to sit on the couch to watch some animation serie (The Jetsons I think...) and suddenly my mother rushes is tells me to switch channels because of some plane and some tower. I change channel, see this smoking tower on CNN and go all "wow..."

[Aquamarine]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 13 2008, 09:04 PM, said:

Keep the discussion civilized folks.
---

I'm from NYC. I was a few miles away from where the Towers hit. Middle school, I remember the announcement came on, no one really knew what to say. In fact, I think class just went on, but the teachers were obviously distressed. Many people didn't believe it, I'll admit I thought it was a joke at first, everything seemed oddly... normal.

Then, we went home, and that is where I saw it with my eyes on the news. My parents were distressed, my mother in tears, my father just shaking his head and so somber.
My high school is a 5 minute walk from where the Towers once stood. I used to pass by there every once in a while, it seemed so empty but also so simple now. I remember their being a picture in my biology class, 7th floor, with a photograph by the windowsill depicting how the WTC looked from that exact same classroom. That was probably the only time I ever felt impacted by it.

Boo-****ing-hoo. When it happens to ****ing America it's all tears and head shaking, but when it happens to almost any other country nobody gives a ****ing damn.

How about living what I went through, you weak and pathetic nation. Having bombs like this falling for two or three months on end all around you, seeing every day on the news the rubbles of important buildings from your city and citizens lying dead in the streets, their faces unrecognizable because they were torn apart by bombs. Try going through the day as normally as you can but not knowing whether or not you and your loved ones will survive to see another dawn, when windows shatter in the middle of the night from the force of explosions, where families just like ours perished instantly. Try living months like this but not shedding a single ****ing tear, because you know it'll do no good. Try going through all of this, but also knowing that the world won't even know about what's really going on because a certain country will tell the world that they've been bombing only military sites.

And it's all thanks to you, the proud Americans, who cry their damned eyes out the moment someone touches your soil.

[Golden Legacy]

Aquamarine, on Sep 13 2008, 05:37 PM, said:

Boo-****ing-hoo. When it happens to ****ing America it's all tears and head shaking, but when it happens to almost any other country nobody gives a ****ing damn.

How about living what I went through, you weak and pathetic nation. Having bombs like this falling for two or three months on end all around you, seeing every day on the news the rubbles of important buildings from your city and citizens lying dead in the streets, their faces unrecognizable because they were torn apart by bombs. Try going through the day as normally as you can but not knowing whether or not you and your loved ones will survive to see another dawn, when windows shatter in the middle of the night from the force of explosions, where families just like ours perished instantly. Try living months like this but not shedding a single ****ing tear, because you know it'll do no good. Try going through all of this, but also knowing that the world won't even know about what's really going on because a certain country will tell the world that they've been bombing only military sites.

And it's all thanks to you, the proud Americans, who cry their damned eyes out the moment someone touches your soil.

Okay, first of all, don't you dare assume I'm just another "American" who thinks that 9/11 was the worst tragedy in the world and that only the USA has suffered, and is some benevolent nation that God is watching over.

I. am. not. like. that.
Can we make this clear? I find what you said insulting.

The only reason 9/11 had even a minor impact on me was because I'm from NYC, and my high school was right next to the site. That's why it impacted me,and just slightly. I don't really feel anything when I think about it now, and I go on with my life.

I am in COMPLETE agreement with you. 100%. To ignore all other tragedies and victims and violence in the world - many caused by the USA itself - and make out Americans as the only victims is a sick and low sentiment that I abhor.

[Split Infinity]

If you want to make a Serbian Bombings topic, no one's stopping you, Aqua.

[Eugine]

Since everyone is doing it, I'll do it.

I was in my first year of my secondary school, only had about 5 days worth of classes when my Mathematics teacher came in class to alert us of the attacks. I guess I was too young to understand the complexity of the issue (plus, honestly, I think my teacher gave us wrong information :wacko:), so it didn't bother me until I was at home. I honestly cannot remember my sentiments.

I can tell my current sentiments though: Kill all dem terrorists who did this atrocious crime.

Aqua, you lived through that? How about telling us more?

[Toasty]

watch, on Sep 12 2008, 12:40 AM, said:

Yes, because the fuel used in Aeroplanes is hot enough to completely erase solid steel, cause that hasn't been disproven.

I don't really care either way, may sound bad. Sure it's bad people died, but I just hate how America kept using it as an excuse to invade the Arabs. Plus it was either the Government or Saudi's.
*High-five for Loose Change*

Nosferatu, on Sep 12 2008, 12:47 AM, said:

I love how this passed me by.
And which science? The science that uses science, or the scientists that said so?

Actual science proved that the beams in the towers would not have melted. Please prove proper science wrong.

I was so hoping to get through today without having to talk with an idiot about 9/11.

The science that uses science says that the beams FAILED. That doesn't mean MELTED.
Anyone with a brain worth two cents should realise that the steel beams were under a lot of stress, even if they were near the top, and that the heat casued by the fire from the planes would be enough to cause them to fail, especially after the fire retardent was blown off of them.

The towers were designed to withstand a small, personal sized plane (like a crop duster) crashing into them. Not an airliner.

[Eugine]

Well, I don't know the specifics to be honest, but if someone wants to believe a guy who doesn't have a college degree; someone who was arrested and discharged from the military (supposedly honorably) and some graphics designer who's best work is a low quality video on Google. (All have no expertise in this field at all, but decided to make a video because they hate their own government [proof: one wants to 'expunge' himself from the military system completely]) vs "many media outlets, independent researchers, and prominent members of the scientific and engineering community", who are the best in the world... GO AHEAD :wacko:

[Toasty]

Though I'm not sure how trustworthy the wiki-article is since I'm not quite sure how some of that information could have been obtained, I'm inclined to believe it.

Though the reason why a plain wasn't found at the Pentagon, is because when an unstopable force meets an immovable object, the force obliterates itself. Even though the Pentagon was severely damaged, the plain hit so hard that it practically vaporized itself. It was in a nosedive aswell, so it couldhave easily had enouhg speed. That's a suggestion I've heard from a science teacher about what happened, but I can't remember what actual scientists believe it is.

[Golden Legacy]

^ That simply boggles the mind trying to think about it, very much non-instinctive... however, I've long since given up debating 9/11 and its possible "truth". It's how 9/11 would be used to enter an era of illicit warfare and violence that angers me more.

[My Best Wishes]

I really hate talking about 9/11 with other people. I can't be ****ed arguing this anymore, pretty sure I did that in the last topic.

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 13 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

^ That simply boggles the mind trying to think about it, very much non-instinctive... however, I've long since given up debating 9/11 and its possible "truth". It's how 9/11 would be used to enter an era of illicit warfare and violence that angers me more.

Mind boggling in that you don't get it, or mind boggling in that you get it, but it doesn't make any sense?

[Golden Legacy]

The latter. I understand what you're saying, it just sounds so ludicrous.

[Gio]

While I don't believe any of the conspiracy theories, I do have to admit that Loose Change is a pretty interesting little video.

I am pretty tired of all the negativity towards the day that we remember the people who died. I think if people in other countries have a problem with us remembering what ,most Americans consider a tragedy where many lost their loved ones, that they should just ignore it rather than complaining about it.

I would like to hear more about what aqua has been through though.
And while i disagree with all the conspiracy theories. keep throwing them out there because i still find them interesting.

And now for my story. I was in 6th walking to class from lunch when someone told me that the world trade center had been crashed into. Then I remember going home and watching it on TV. And that is pretty much it.

[Ironsight]

I think I was in 3rd grade, I'm not sure. I just remember my teacher telling the class that some towers were blown up. Being 8 at the time, and never having heard of the towers before, I didn't really care much.
When I got home, my mom was watching the news. I watched some people run around in the streets, and clips of people jumping from the tower windows, some on fire.

So I guess they're building another monument in the towers' place?

[Toasty]

Something like that.

[Caael]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 13 2008, 10:44 PM, said:

Okay, first of all, don't you dare assume I'm just another "American" who thinks that 9/11 was the worst tragedy in the world and that only the USA has suffered, and is some benevolent nation that God is watching over.

I. am. not. like. that.
Can we make this clear? I find what you said insulting.

The only reason 9/11 had even a minor impact on me was because I'm from NYC, and my high school was right next to the site. That's why it impacted me,and just slightly. I don't really feel anything when I think about it now, and I go on with my life.

I am in COMPLETE agreement with you. 100%. To ignore all other tragedies and victims and violence in the world - many caused by the USA itself - and make out Americans as the only victims is a sick and low sentiment that I abhor.

Even i found what he said insulting, and it wasnt even directed at me

[Laharl]

if i'm brutally honest i was more interested in the Large Hadron Collider than whatever anniversary it is of WTC

[Aquamarine]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 13 2008, 11:44 PM, said:

Okay, first of all, don't you dare assume I'm just another "American" who thinks that 9/11 was the worst tragedy in the world and that only the USA has suffered, and is some benevolent nation that God is watching over.

I. am. not. like. that.
Can we make this clear? I find what you said insulting.

The only reason 9/11 had even a minor impact on me was because I'm from NYC, and my high school was right next to the site. That's why it impacted me,and just slightly. I don't really feel anything when I think about it now, and I go on with my life.

I am in COMPLETE agreement with you. 100%. To ignore all other tragedies and victims and violence in the world - many caused by the USA itself - and make out Americans as the only victims is a sick and low sentiment that I abhor.

GL, I've been visiting this place for 3 years now, so I know what many of you are like. I KNOW full well that you're not what I described in my post. I agree with your views on almost every single topic, and I've always found that surprising. I am sorry I insulted you, that wasn't the intention of my post. I promised myself I wouldn't share my views here, but some posts just got my blood boiling and I honestly couldn't stop myself.

Split Infinity, on Sep 14 2008, 12:55 AM, said:

If you want to make a Serbian Bombings topic, no one's stopping you, Aqua.

Why would I want to make it? It's been 9 years since the bombings took place, and us Serbs are not like Americans; we don't go around complaining each and every year about what happened. We don't dedicate every anniversary, even years later, to what happened. It's all in the past. It's over and done with, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

[Split Infinity]

I think perhaps the point of it is to remind America that they're just as vulnerable as any other country, albeit most countries have become a lot more secure since that day.

[Eugine]

Actually, it's more about remembering the dead and allowing people to grieve.

Anyway, Aqua, you may have grown up in a war zone, but most New Yorkers didn't... This is why it is so hard for people to forget 9/11 and move on; it was a complete shock to most.

Plus, 9/11 will never be forgotten and should not be forgotten because that was the day most Americans and the world realised Jihadist terrorism is real and powerful. Also, 9/11 was the day Americans really fought back through Flight 93. This was the day the fight started in ernest.

[Lightning Star]

Aquamarine, on Sep 13 2008, 02:37 PM, said:

Boo-****ing-hoo. When it happens to ****ing America it's all tears and head shaking, but when it happens to almost any other country nobody gives a ****ing damn.

How about living what I went through, you weak and pathetic nation. Having bombs like this falling for two or three months on end all around you, seeing every day on the news the rubbles of important buildings from your city and citizens lying dead in the streets, their faces unrecognizable because they were torn apart by bombs. Try going through the day as normally as you can but not knowing whether or not you and your loved ones will survive to see another dawn, when windows shatter in the middle of the night from the force of explosions, where families just like ours perished instantly. Try living months like this but not shedding a single ****ing tear, because you know it'll do no good. Try going through all of this, but also knowing that the world won't even know about what's really going on because a certain country will tell the world that they've been bombing only military sites.

And it's all thanks to you, the proud Americans, who cry their damned eyes out the moment someone touches your soil.

Gee, sounds like someones a bit resentful? Take it up with your people, not out on ours.


But I find it funny, that when America goes in to help countries like the ones you describe, they push us away and tell us to mind our own f*cking buisness, and suddenly we're the bad guys because we feel bad and want to help? Seriously, you know why you hate america so much? Is because we have the power to deflate your precious little egos and make you look like complete bastards that you really are.

And why the f*ck do you care if we cry about losing our loved ones or not? Seriously, if it doesn't affect you, then all you're doing is making yourself look like a insensitive prick. And I'm speaking to all the arrogant european/aussie/canadian 14 year-old boys who think they know the answers to all life's questions and the universe itself (and btw, you really don't.)

And sorry, GL, didn't mean for this to go "uncivilized", but you should know that any topic that deals with America or religion is going to become a disaster zone, because obviously the world just hates America so much, that's why we're still a world power and have problems with people wanting to get into our country so bad that they go through illegally. Because we're such a horrible, pathetic country that the children of those countries Aqua mentioned have smiles on their faces when they see american soldiers, because they know they can sleep in peace and that someone is going to try and make their lives better. Because we're such a country of pansies, we're the only one who would stand up to Saddam Husein and finally deliver justice for his wrongs.

Oh yes, America is such a horrible country... e.e

[Saturos S.]

Icy, on Sep 14 2008, 06:27 PM, said:

Gee, sounds like someones a bit resentful? Take it up with your people, not out on ours.


But I find it funny, that when America goes in to help countries like the ones you describe, they push us away and tell us to mind our own f*cking buisness, and suddenly we're the bad guys because we feel bad and want to help? Seriously, you know why you hate america so much? Is because we have the power to deflate your precious little egos and make you look like complete bastards that you really are.
And why the f*ck do you care if we cry about losing our loved ones or not? Seriously, if it doesn't affect you, then all you're doing is making yourself look like a insensitive prick. And I'm speaking to all the arrogant european/aussie/canadian 14 year-old boys who think they know the answers to all life's questions and the universe itself (and btw, you really don't.)

And sorry, GL, didn't mean for this to go "uncivilized", but you should know that any topic that deals with America or religion is going to become a disaster zone, because obviously the world just hates America so much, that's why we're still a world power and have problems with people wanting to get into our country so bad that they go through illegally. Because we're such a horrible, pathetic country that the children of those countries Aqua mentioned have smiles on their faces when they see american soldiers, because they know they can sleep in peace and that someone is going to try and make their lives better. Because we're such a country of pansies, we're the only one who would stand up to Saddam Husein and finally deliver justice for his wrongs.

Oh yes, America is such a horrible country... e.e

It's not so much what you do as a nation, it's your attitude towards the rest of the world. An attitude you just perfectly exampled.

[Golden Legacy]

@Icy: The point Aqua's making is it took an event on the scale of 9/11 to "wake up" America to the reality of the world. Tell me, how many Americans before 9/11 really knew what it was like to have genuine tragedy befall your nation?

You point out that the USA contributes aid and relief when natural disasters or civil conflicts erupt. That's certainly true (though, it's not only the USA that does this) - however, do Americans really put a "face" to the victims? You brought up the issue of Iraq, and let's be clear here, for all the bad Saddam did, America's basis of war with Iraq is a complete facade. Violence and bloodshed is all that "we" have brought onto the Iraqi people. But do you think the Americans really care? Do you think Americans - they, we, whatever - actually care about the Iraqi civilians, the thousands that have been murdered, the millions displaced, the families that yearn for schools and simple running water for their children, but no longer have available because the country's been torn apart.

Do you think Americans care? How many racists are in America, how many people here disgustingly talk about Muslims and Arabs and spew out hate, and yet you think they genuinely show "affection" for the Iraqis? Don't make me laugh.

Further, notice how all the insurgents appeared after we invaded. Notice how the civil war erupted after we decided to go and "liberate" the Iraqi people.

These aspects were notably absent before President Dubya decided to play 'big boy' and make daddy proud.

It is not America's duty to act as a police force in the world. Your notion that other nations come crawling to us for aid and help is distorted - the USA is expected to contribute, certainly, but only because it is a fully developed Western nation and to keep up ties with the rest of the world. Not out of benevolence, necessarily, but a simple obligation that all nations that are able to provide.

[Aquamarine]

Icy, on Sep 14 2008, 06:27 PM, said:

Gee, sounds like someones a bit resentful? Take it up with your people, not out on ours.
But I find it funny, that when America goes in to help countries like the ones you describe, they push us away and tell us to mind our own f*cking buisness, and suddenly we're the bad guys because we feel bad and want to help? Seriously, you know why you hate america so much? Is because we have the power to deflate your precious little egos and make you look like complete bastards that you really are.

And why the f*ck do you care if we cry about losing our loved ones or not? Seriously, if it doesn't affect you, then all you're doing is making yourself look like a insensitive prick. And I'm speaking to all the arrogant european/aussie/canadian 14 year-old boys who think they know the answers to all life's questions and the universe itself (and btw, you really don't.)

And sorry, GL, didn't mean for this to go "uncivilized", but you should know that any topic that deals with America or religion is going to become a disaster zone, because obviously the world just hates America so much, that's why we're still a world power and have problems with people wanting to get into our country so bad that they go through illegally. Because we're such a horrible, pathetic country that the children of those countries Aqua mentioned have smiles on their faces when they see american soldiers, because they know they can sleep in peace and that someone is going to try and make their lives better. Because we're such a country of pansies, we're the only one who would stand up to Saddam Husein and finally deliver justice for his wrongs.

Oh yes, America is such a horrible country... e.e

... Wow. Like SS said, you're the perfect example of an American.

I'm going to hold back any mean words I have for you(and trust me, I have a LOT of them on my mind right now) and all of my anger and simply say that ignorant people are ignorant. I will do my best for this to remain a civilized discussion, out of respect for GL.

Have you even read my post? Ok, in case you haven't, I'll quote a part of it: "seeing every day on the news the rubbles of important buildings from your city and citizens lying dead in the streets, their faces unrecognizable because they were torn apart by bombs." Please, tell me... Is killing civilians in the middle of our capital city, and countless other smaller ones, supposed to help us? Did America bomb hospitals, TV stations , bridges and schools because ther were helping us? Hm?

The reason you said what you said is because you live in a country in which the media is completely controlled by the government. You can only find out what they want you to find out. You're going to hear the shocking truth now: the children of those countries DO NOT "have smiles on their faces when they see american soldiers, because they know they can sleep in peace and that someone is going to try and make their lives better". The children of those countries despise America with every ounce of feeling they've got. Their greatest dream is to see America absolutely and utterly obliterated, along with the whole American nation. From such a young age. Because they all know that America didn't bomb their country, killing thousands of innocent civilians and destroying their homes, to help them. No, because the peoples of other countries are able to use their brains and eyes.

As for me being an insensitive prick, I guess I am. I feel very, VERY sorry for all the countries and all the people ever to have suffered any form of attack by America. But I am an insensitive prick, I do agree... Because those feeling are just one side of the coin. Flip it, and you would see what else I feel.

But you said it correctly: the whole world hates America. If only you knew what 'hate' means. You think you know, but you have no idea.

[Eugine]

Wait Aqua, where are you getting your information from? And what exactly are you talking about? You know, I'm sure you're the only one who's familiar with Serbian history here...

And lol, the whole world hates USA? Then like Icy said, why does it have the most immigrants? And come on, the US media is biased (pro-American, but wow, why shouldn't it?), but not government controlled... Would you like your local Serbian stations to be anti-Serbia?

I honestly don't see what's so bad about the USA, but w/e. It's done some bad yeah, but I think the good outweighs the bad.

Oh, and stop sounding so angry... Are your views mainstream or radical in Serbia? Cuz, if it is mainstream, wow... Toasty and company better not vacation in Serbia! They will be killed lmao. THEY ARE WARNED.

[I'm Always BROKE]

Media in general is government controlled. Always. And as Eugine said, why shouldn't it? As a government I can understand that you want your people to believe what you're doing is the right thing.

Sure, 9/11 shouldn't have happened, and it's terrible for the American people that they had to loose their lives, family and friends. But clearly, the things that America have done / is still doing are not the right thing either. As said in this thread before, the American soldiers kill innocent Iraqi people as well. Sure the media tells you that the soldiers are there to "help" the innocents, but this help isn't wanted.

I've seen many interviews on TV with the victims of war that they where much better off with Saddam still governing over Iraq, because at least then the people knew who was the enemy. If someone got killed, it was because he or she didn't followed Saddam's rule. But in war, a whole nation is in chaos. People get killed without clear reason why, which'll lead the survivors to blame America for the murders cause afterall, they started the war.

I'm not saying that Saddam shouldn't have been stopped, cause he had to. But I think that executing him was a very bad idea, because America could've tried to negociate with the Taliban or whoever the hell is 'ruling' over Iraq to finally stop this useless war.

Anyways, I'm not very knowlegdeable about this subject, but I do have a great detest against the war in the Middle East and I don't think that 9/11 is the worst thing in history as many Americans seem to decribe it...

[Aquamarine]

Eugine, on Sep 14 2008, 08:16 PM, said:

Wait Aqua, where are you getting your information from? And what exactly are you talking about? You know, I'm sure you're the only one who's familiar with Serbian history here...

I'm not getting this 'information' from anywhere. It's personal experience. My country was bombed in 1999. It wasn't a war, just a bombing. It wasn't even close as awful as a real war. And only because of this bombing had so many civilians dies, and the Serbian people hate America so much. I doubt I can even begin to imagine what the Iraqi people think of America. Some things about what happened to us and them are similar, except that what's happening to them is about 20 times worse than what happened to us.

And lol, the whole world hates USA? Then like Icy said, why does it have the most immigrants? And come on, the US media is biased (pro-American, but wow, why shouldn't it?), but not government controlled... Would you like your local Serbian stations to be anti-Serbia?

First off, saying that the whole world hates the USA doesn't mean that every single individual in the entire world hates it, you idiot. The people that don't hate it go to live there, but also often people that DO hate it do the same. They simply feel that a better life for them and their families is more important than their beliefs.

I honestly don't see what's so bad about the USA, but w/e. It's done some bad yeah, but I think the good outweighs the bad.

Tell me, what do you think of Fidel Castro? You see, my view of him is exactly what your above sentence says about America.

Oh, and stop sounding so angry... Are your views mainstream or radical in Serbia? Cuz, if it is mainstream, wow... Toasty and company better not vacation in Serbia! They will be killed lmao. THEY ARE WARNED.

The anger of my posts was absolutely genuine, 100%. My views are somewhere in between mainstream and radical. And you're right, Toasty and company shouldn't visit Serbia, not that there's much reason for them to do so. They definitely wouldn't be killed, but they wouldn't have a good time because most Serbs would be frowning down upon them and would be unfriendly. However, GL would have a great time here, everybody would like him

[Eugine]

Alright, I'll read up on the 1999 bombing. Always good to learn new stuff. Must I say, there are good news in Iraq. I honestly cannot link the article, but I read an article that said Iraqis were finally turning against those terrorists, and defending their land. The article even had a quote from a small boy who said he wanted to be an American just to join the US military. There are ill discipline US soldiers though =)

But anyway, I honestly do not understand how someone can migrate to a country they hate. This creates terrorism, like the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot. Ah well, one can only hope the intelligence agencies are doing their jobs well.

Regarding Fidel, I have the same opinion honestly. I think he means good for Cuba, but his party needs to realise democracy (and I do not mean European democracy, too much socialists) > dictatorship anyday. Cuba would have been a much better place if it was a democracy imo.

Oh, and as long as Serbia has close ties to Russia, expect bombing from USA whenever a conflict occurs. Dunno how anyone can support that country honestly... So terrible (ie Russia).

[Aquamarine]

Read up all you like, the fact is you won't find half of what is true.

LOL, the article thing made me laugh. Ever crossed your mind that the article might be, oh, I dunno... Bull ****? Probably not, you're just another one of the victims of the American media. It's a shame most of these victims are incapable of using their brains.

And we are in obvious disagreement about the Russia thing. Well, I don't exactly idolize Russia. Serbian politicians are becoming more and more pro EU, and because of that Russia is threatening to cut off all gas supplies to Serbia, which would pretty much mean each and every person in the country is screwed. So our hands are tied. The EU is the best way to go, but I would choose Russia over the USA without a second thought, even if that meant Serbia remained a relatively undeveloped country. Morals and beliefs are sometimes more important than even how you live. That's why I can't really understand the people that go to live in a country they hate either.

[Golden Legacy]

Diddy Kong, on Sep 14 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Sure, 9/11 shouldn't have happened, and it's terrible for the American people that they had to loose their lives, family and friends. But clearly, the things that America have done / is still doing are not the right thing either. As said in this thread before, the American soldiers kill innocent Iraqi people as well. Sure the media tells you that the soldiers are there to "help" the innocents, but this help isn't wanted.

Not to mention the mighty, benevolent, good-hearted American soldiers go around looting and raping, killing unnecessarily and having a rather fun time murdering the same people they should be liberating.

Quote

I've seen many interviews on TV with the victims of war that they where much better off with Saddam still governing over Iraq, because at least then the people knew who was the enemy. If someone got killed, it was because he or she didn't followed Saddam's rule. But in war, a whole nation is in chaos. People get killed without clear reason why, which'll lead the survivors to blame America for the murders cause afterall, they started the war.

I'm not saying that Saddam shouldn't have been stopped, cause he had to. But I think that executing him was a very bad idea, because America could've tried to negociate with the Taliban or whoever the hell is 'ruling' over Iraq to finally stop this useless war.

Another great point. Whatever delusions people have, all taking down Saddam has done is give more fuel to extremists about how evil Americans are. The nation fell apart, and the stability that was under the Saddam era - however much the man had to "be stopped" - far outweighs any of the benefits that might have been gained with him gone.

Iraq had among the best higher education in the Middle East. Among the largest reserves of oil, the highest standards of living in the urban areas, a rich history dating back thousands of years. Food and water were affordable, housing was available readily, industry and jobs were prosperous and growing - and all that has been erased. Congrats America.

Eugine, on Sep 14 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

Oh, and as long as Serbia has close ties to Russia, expect bombing from USA whenever a conflict occurs. Dunno how anyone can support that country honestly... So terrible (ie Russia).

You lost all my respect with this comment.

[I'm Always BROKE]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 14 2008, 11:53 PM, said:

Not to mention the mighty, benevolent, good-hearted American soldiers go around looting and raping, killing unnecessarily and having a rather fun time murdering the same people they should be liberating.

I hope you are sarcastic with that comment?

Golden Legacy, on Sep 14 2008, 11:53 PM, said:

Another great point. Whatever delusions people have, all taking down Saddam has done is give more fuel to extremists about how evil Americans are. The nation fell apart, and the stability that was under the Saddam era - however much the man had to "be stopped" - far outweighs any of the benefits that might have been gained with him gone.

Iraq had among the best higher education in the Middle East. Among the largest reserves of oil, the highest standards of living in the urban areas, a rich history dating back thousands of years. Food and water were affordable, housing was available readily, industry and jobs were prosperous and growing - and all that has been erased. Congrats America.

The only reason why I said that Saddam should've been stopped was to avoid conflict with pro-American people here as Toasty and Icy but... The things you said with this post has made me lost all faith in the what the Americans think are the benefits of this war...

As you nicely summarised: Congrats America.

[Caael]

Executing Saddam was americas way of saying " Look how tough we are, you better back off"

[Eugine]

I could swear it was the Iraqis who hanged Saddam, but w/e, no one here really regards the facts =)

[Split Infinity]

Icy, on Sep 15 2008, 02:27 AM, said:

And why the f*ck do you care if we cry about losing our loved ones or not? Seriously, if it doesn't affect you, then all you're doing is making yourself look like a insensitive prick. And I'm speaking to all the arrogant european/aussie/canadian 14 year-old boys who think they know the answers to all life's questions and the universe itself (and btw, you really don't.)

Okay, I wouldn't have said anything if I wasn't sure you were referring to me. I'm not taking any sides here, what did I do wrong?

[Mallick]

Icy, on Sep 14 2008, 09:27 AM, said:

tl;dr

America is a horrible country.

QFT

[Gio]

Eugine, on Sep 14 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

I could swear it was the Iraqis who hanged Saddam, but w/e, no one here really regards the facts =)

Yep, I was thinking that the whole time I was reading those posts.

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 14 2008, 02:53 PM, said:

Not to mention the mighty, benevolent, good-hearted American soldiers go around looting and raping, killing unnecessarily and having a rather fun time murdering the same people they should be liberating.


Another great point. Whatever delusions people have, all taking down Saddam has done is give more fuel to extremists about how evil Americans are. The nation fell apart, and the stability that was under the Saddam era - however much the man had to "be stopped" - far outweighs any of the benefits that might have been gained with him gone.

Iraq had among the best higher education in the Middle East. Among the largest reserves of oil, the highest standards of living in the urban areas, a rich history dating back thousands of years. Food and water were affordable, housing was available readily, industry and jobs were prosperous and growing - and all that has been erased. Congrats America.


You lost all my respect with this comment.

Your respect seems painfully easy to lose GL. Just saying.


Anyway, anyone who thinks that all Iraqis (or even most) hate America's guts and wish Saddam was back, are on crack.

Most Iraqis are glad that they finally have a chance to rule themselves. As it stands right now, the country is pretty stable. Almost stable enough to warrant a withdrawl of US troops (save for a few that should stay at an outpost/embacy to keep tabs, like what we have in every other country we've entered). Iraq will recover and prosper, and become an even more prosperous and thriving nation under a democracy than it was under a dictatorship. That is an absolute garuntee.

Sadaam was killed because he violated numerous international laws (including committing genocide), not because Amnerica wanted to proove a point. So you all need to shut the hell up, and quit saying that everything America does is motivated by selfishness and greed. If you want to hate someone, hate Russia. Their government is probably the most sinister in the world right now.


Aqua, I realize that what happened to your country was worse than what happened to the WTC. It certainly doesn't help that your country was attacked by a government and not terrorists. But just because you think you've had it worse doesn't warrant hatred towards the US. Nor should you hate America for the bombings. If you want to hate someone, then hate the government that Serbia had in 1999, that did whatever they did to warrant an attack from the US.

A lot of people died in the WTC bombings, and 9/11 was made a holiday to grieve for the people who were killed. No one ever stopped any other nation from commemorating a disaster, so quit saying that we whine too much. The holiday is there for the people who lost family members to grieve. It's there out of a sense of respect, not because we wanted to say "Oh hey world, we just want to remind you all again this year that we were attacked by terrorists". So quit complaining, and start paying your respects to the people who were killed or injured in the Serbian bombings. There's nothing wrong with having a little respect for the dead and injured.




By major beef with people who don't live in America, and hate us, is that they've never lived here and form their opinions solely on what the news says, and what America does regarding other countries. America, by far, gives more money to charity and disaster victims than any other country. And yet people still complain when we don't help.

I'm not saying America is perfect, but were sure as hell not as bad of a country as so many people make us out to be.

[Mallick]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 14 2008, 10:14 PM, said:

Your respect seems painfully easy to loose GL. Just saying.

Ur spellin sux, juss saying.

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Sep 15 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Plus, 9/11 will never be forgotten and should not be forgotten because that was the day most Americans and the world realised Jihadist terrorism is real and powerful. Also, 9/11 was the day Americans really fought back through Flight 93. This was the day the fight started in ernest.

Only if you believe that's what actually happened.

Icy, on Sep 15 2008, 02:27 AM, said:

And why the f*ck do you care if we cry about losing our loved ones or not? Seriously, if it doesn't affect you, then all you're doing is making yourself look like a insensitive prick. And I'm speaking to all the arrogant european/aussie/canadian 14 year-old boys who think they know the answers to all life's questions and the universe itself (and btw, you really don't.)

**** yea Australia gets a mention! Shame I'm 18 not 14, damn not even 15 minutes of fame for me.

Icy, go watch the movie 'The Kingdom'. It's a damn good movie, Jamie Foxx, Jason Bateman etc, really good. But pay attention to the themes in it, and be mindful of how confronting it is, showing the treatment that these young people go through in their childhoods and how it's blamed on USA. Damn good movie, based on real events as well (well the start is anyway, and the overall gist)

Also, do me a favour and watch this clip, it's from a Topgear episode (British car show, very entertaining, I love it, not sure if Americans have seen it)
Topgear
Please, try and refute that, because that **** wouldn't happen in any other Western Country.
And just cause
Rick Roll

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 15 2008, 03:14 PM, said:

Aqua, I realize that what happened to your country was worse than what happened to the WTC. It certainly doesn't help that your country was attacked by a government and not terrorists. But just because you think you've had it worse doesn't warrant hatred towards the US. Nor should you hate America for the bombings. If you want to hate someone, then hate the government that Serbia had in 1999, that did whatever they did to warrant an attack from the US.

By major beef with people who don't live in America, and hate us, is that they've never lived here and form their opinions solely on what the news says, and what America does regarding other countries. America, by far, gives more money to charity and disaster victims than any other country. And yet people still complain when we don't help.

I'm not saying America is perfect, but were sure as hell not as bad of a country as so many people make us out to be.

Go invade Korea then you dumbass, you did it to Iraq. Oh wait, they have Oil, and WMD, well actually they don't have WMD but you're entire population thought they did, whoops, your bad.
So you'll help with Iraq (several years after it's happened, and you set off the whole reigon by pissing off some Arabs and suppling others with weapons, also leaving Afghanisation with over $1 Billion in money and arms, and you trained Osama) but you won't help Rwanda or Korea, or free those poor Chinese.

(Boxing day Tsnamui Aid)
"Nations all over the world provided over US$7 billion in aid for damaged regions, with the governments of Australia pledging US$819.9 million (including a US$760.6-million aid package for Indonesia), Germany offering US$660 million, Japan offering US$500 million, Canada offering US$343 million, Norway and The Netherlands offering both US$183 million, the United States offering US$35 million initially (increased to US$350 million), and the World Bank offering US$250 million. Also Italy offered US$ 95 million, increased later to US$ 113 million"

"Asia you went through so much, we're going to give you $35 Million, oh what's that rest of the world? Why yes we are the richest country in the world, but what do you mean that's not enough?"
Sit down, and shut up Toasty. Or neck the **** up, either way.

[I'm Always BROKE]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 15 2008, 07:14 AM, said:

Your respect seems painfully easy to lose GL. Just saying.
Anyway, anyone who thinks that all Iraqis (or even most) hate America's guts and wish Saddam was back, are on crack.

Most Iraqis are glad that they finally have a chance to rule themselves. As it stands right now, the country is pretty stable. Almost stable enough to warrant a withdrawl of US troops (save for a few that should stay at an outpost/embacy to keep tabs, like what we have in every other country we've entered). Iraq will recover and prosper, and become an even more prosperous and thriving nation under a democracy than it was under a dictatorship. That is an absolute garuntee.

Sadaam was killed because he violated numerous international laws (including committing genocide), not because Amnerica wanted to proove a point. So you all need to shut the hell up, and quit saying that everything America does is motivated by selfishness and greed. If you want to hate someone, hate Russia. Their government is probably the most sinister in the world right now.
Aqua, I realize that what happened to your country was worse than what happened to the WTC. It certainly doesn't help that your country was attacked by a government and not terrorists. But just because you think you've had it worse doesn't warrant hatred towards the US. Nor should you hate America for the bombings. If you want to hate someone, then hate the government that Serbia had in 1999, that did whatever they did to warrant an attack from the US.

A lot of people died in the WTC bombings, and 9/11 was made a holiday to grieve for the people who were killed. No one ever stopped any other nation from commemorating a disaster, so quit saying that we whine too much. The holiday is there for the people who lost family members to grieve. It's there out of a sense of respect, not because we wanted to say "Oh hey world, we just want to remind you all again this year that we were attacked by terrorists". So quit complaining, and start paying your respects to the people who were killed or injured in the Serbian bombings. There's nothing wrong with having a little respect for the dead and injured.

Your not making it easy to LIKE America either... Seriously, who the **** you think you are to say something like that? You should be ashamed for thinking like this. "Yeah we throw bombs, so what!? They provoked us! Go hate your own government for disagreeing with us, the almight USA!"

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 15 2008, 07:14 AM, said:

By major beef with people who don't live in America, and hate us, is that they've never lived here and form their opinions solely on what the news says, and what America does regarding other countries. America, by far, gives more money to charity and disaster victims than any other country. And yet people still complain when we don't help.

I'm not saying America is perfect, but were sure as hell not as bad of a country as so many people make us out to be.

Ohh and you don't form your opinion on what the news says? And as for America giving money to charity, sure they do but not far enough as what you could've given seeing the statistic watch posted. Even MY tiny country donates US$183 million, that's about half of what the US gave which is about 200 times the size of The Netherlands....

[Aquamarine]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 15 2008, 07:14 AM, said:

Your respect seems painfully easy to lose GL. Just saying.

Well, he does seem to lose respect for good reasons though.

Anyway, anyone who thinks that all Iraqis (or even most) hate America's guts and wish Saddam was back, are on crack.

Maybe I'm on crack, but at least I'm not as thick as a log.

Most Iraqis are glad that they finally have a chance to rule themselves. As it stands right now, the country is pretty stable. Almost stable enough to warrant a withdrawl of US troops (save for a few that should stay at an outpost/embacy to keep tabs, like what we have in every other country we've entered). Iraq will recover and prosper, and become an even more prosperous and thriving nation under a democracy than it was under a dictatorship. That is an absolute garuntee.

Toasty, don't you get it?! Of course you're going to believe that, since that is what your government wants you to believe.

Sadaam was killed because he violated numerous international laws (including committing genocide), not because Amnerica wanted to proove a point. So you all need to shut the hell up, and quit saying that everything America does is motivated by selfishness and greed. If you want to hate someone, hate Russia. Their government is probably the most sinister in the world right now.

Oh, bloody hell... Well, like with Eugine, I'm in a BIG disagreement with you there. I have a great respect for the Russian government, mostly because they actually do so much good for the Russian people. Putin singlehandedly rescued such a huge country from absolute poverty. Not to mention that Russia minds its own business all the time, and doesn't participate in wars that don't have anything to do with them and for only personal gain. Plus, of course, they've helped Serbia out on numerous occasions, and now our politicians are simply casting aside the generosity Russia has been known for for over twenty years here.

Aqua, I realize that what happened to your country was worse than what happened to the WTC. It certainly doesn't help that your country was attacked by a government and not terrorists. But just because you think you've had it worse doesn't warrant hatred towards the US. Nor should you hate America for the bombings. If you want to hate someone, then hate the government that Serbia had in 1999, that did whatever they did to warrant an attack from the US.

Oh trust me. I DO hate the government we had in 1999. Thank GOD they were put to a stop by us. Not by you. By us. The government just couldn't hold out against the overwhelming rebellions.

And my hatred isn't warranted only by what happened in '99. It also stems from the fact that I've got eyes that I can see with and a brain that can proses what I see.

A lot of people died in the WTC bombings, and 9/11 was made a holiday to grieve for the people who were killed. No one ever stopped any other nation from commemorating a disaster, so quit saying that we whine too much. The holiday is there for the people who lost family members to grieve. It's there out of a sense of respect, not because we wanted to say "Oh hey world, we just want to remind you all again this year that we were attacked by terrorists". So quit complaining, and start paying your respects to the people who were killed or injured in the Serbian bombings. There's nothing wrong with having a little respect for the dead and injured.
By major beef with people who don't live in America, and hate us, is that they've never lived here and form their opinions solely on what the news says, and what America does regarding other countries. America, by far, gives more money to charity and disaster victims than any other country. And yet people still complain when we don't help.

I began writing up an answer to this, but have decided against it.

I'm not saying America is perfect, but were sure as hell not as bad of a country as so many people make us out to be.

No... You're worse.

[Laharl]

Aquamarine, on Sep 14 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Why would I want to make it? It's been 9 years since the bombings took place, and us Serbs are not like Americans; we don't go around complaining each and every year about what happened. We don't dedicate every anniversary, even years later, to what happened. It's all in the past. It's over and done with, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

i guess you're not Serbian then, because you've done an awful of complaining in this thread

[Toasty]

Quote

Maybe I'm on crack, but at least I'm not as thick as a log.

I'd rather be thick than be on crack. That said, I'm not that thick.

Toasty, don't you get it?! Of course you're going to believe that, since that is what your government wants you to believe.

Aqua, don't you get it? Of course you're going to say that, because you hate America with a burning passion. I don't simply believe what the government wants me to believe. Most of the soldiers that come back from Iraq say the opposite of what the media says. They say that the Iraqi's are glad that Saddam's gone, and that they have a Republic. Any sane person in their right mind could see that even though things might be worse right now than they were under a dictatorship, they'll get better. A lot better than they were under Saddam's reign.

Oh, bloody hell... Well, like with Eugine, I'm in a BIG disagreement with you there. I have a great respect for the Russian government, mostly because they actually do so much good for the Russian people. Putin singlehandedly rescued such a huge country from absolute poverty. Not to mention that Russia minds its own business all the time, and doesn't participate in wars that don't have anything to do with them and for only personal gain. Plus, of course, they've helped Serbia out on numerous occasions, and now our politicians are simply casting aside the generosity Russia has been known for for over twenty years here.

Hitler saved Germany from collapse too. Look how that turned out. It's not what a country does that makes them good, it's what their intentions behind what they do, are. A lot of Serbs hate America. It only makes sense for Russia to support them, and bring them over to their side. As for Russia minding their own buisness, try looking at Georgia. They invaded Georgia with little/no provocation. Georgia did nothing (besides becomming energy independant from Russia) to warrant the invasion.

Russia may have done some good things for people, but their government is not motivated by good intentions.

Oh trust me. I DO hate the government we had in 1999. Thank GOD they were put to a stop by us. Not by you. By us. The government just couldn't hold out against the overwhelming rebellions.

And my hatred isn't warranted only by what happened in '99. It also stems from the fact that I've got eyes that I can see with and a brain that can proses what I see.

Albeit with a fair bit of bias.

Because of what happened in '99, you've seen most things that America has deon from a negative perspective. Instead of thinking that 9/11 was for honoring the victims, you think it's just a way from America to whine about being attacked. Instead of thinking that America invaded Iraq to take out Saddam and give the Iraqi's a chance at a fair method of govorning, you think it's just to flex our muscles, or maybe even just for oil. I could go on, but my point is, is that your bias can (and has) become more intense over time, just because the seed was sprouted back in '99. Hatred grows and thrives, but love can easily wane. That's why being biased towards a positive look on things rarely grows and becomes more slanted.

I began writing up an answer to this, but have decided against it.

Enlighten me as to why, would you?

America may not always give the most charity to disaster victims, but generally speaking, we've given more than anyone else. I also suppose I should replace "News" with "Media" because it's not just the news. And though I may

No... You're worse.

Matter of opinion. Mine may be biased because I live in America and "blindly follow what my government tells me to do," but I wouldn't jump off a cliff if they said it was a good idea.

Some of you may think I'm harsh or insensitive, but it's foolish to think that America is tyrant. We're nothing like Hitler and the Nazis. Or even the Soviets.

[Split Infinity]

No... You're worse.

[My Best Wishes]

Quote

America may not always give the most charity to disaster victims, but generally speaking, we've given more than anyone else. I also suppose I should replace "News" with "Media" because it's not just the news. And though I may

Prove it. And don't include aid to places like Isreal or Egypt or any Arab nation you bought over to your side.

America should at least fix their own nation before they try to help the rest of the world, and leave them to dyi. Get rid of your internal terrorism, class inequality, racism, absolute **** corrupt healthcare and crap education. And fix those insane gun laws.

[Eugine]

lol wow... The hate is extreme =)

Internal terrorism? Prove it.
Class inequality? It's worse when you look at it on a worldwide scale. Plus, Americans have more money overall than other countries, but yeah, there is inequality.
Racism? I'll like to see a black man become Prime Minister of Australia =)
Corrupt healthcare? I can't put spin on that one lmao. Don't think government regulation is the answer though, but it needs some oversight tbh.
Crap education? America has the best higher education in the world. By far the best actually. Actually, it's unbeatable. I dunno what's wrong with their secondary school though... I think that simply injecting money into the system, while pulling out values and honor codes (mostly a liberal idea tbh) is killing their education.
Gun laws? What insane gun laws? Elaborate?

[Toasty]

I just spent a half an hour looking for anything related to disaster relief, and I didn't find any total sum for any country. So I can't prove that at the moment.

However, the rest of your statements are (arguably) exaggerated. Internal terrorism such as? The most I can think of is illegal immigrants or gangs causing trouble, and criminals in general. As far as that Top Gear thing goes, it would only be terrorism if it was unprovoked. Which it wasn't. Rednecks tend to be hotheaded, but you'd probably get a similar response if you did something similar in parts of Ireland. Though of course, that would be a stereotype. Just like the one given to rednecks. Class inequality? If everyone had the same/similar income, it wouldn't be a democracy. Racism is barely around anymore. It's there, but it's only become more "prominent" in the news where everything about it is exaggerated. Racism is bad, but confusing the term "black hole" as a racist comment is worse. The only part of healthcare that's corrupt is Medicare, that I know of. It's not cheap, but then again, most things for Americans these days aren't.
And you think banning all guns is a bad idea? All that does is keep guns out of the hands of citiczens who go though all the procedures to won and fire a gun. Not the people who aquire them illegally, and then use them on un-armed citiczens. It's foolish to think that banning guns altogether will work, because things just aren't that black and white.

Though the education is pretty crap as far as Highschool and lower is concerned. Universaties here however are generall great.

[Golden Legacy]

Eugine, on Sep 15 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

lol wow... The hate is extreme =)

Internal terrorism? Prove it.
Class inequality? It's worse when you look at it on a worldwide scale. Plus, Americans have more money overall than other countries, but yeah, there is inequality.
Racism? I'll like to see a black man become Prime Minister of Australia =)
Corrupt healthcare? I can't put spin on that one lmao. Don't think government regulation is the answer though, but it needs some oversight tbh.
Crap education? America has the best higher education in the world. By far the best actually. Actually, it's unbeatable. I dunno what's wrong with their secondary school though... I think that simply injecting money into the system, while pulling out values and honor codes (mostly a liberal idea tbh) is killing their education.
Gun laws? What insane gun laws? Elaborate?

Internal Terrorism
http://en.wikipedia....klahoma_bombing

Class Inequality
Top 1% of American population owns 60% of the wealth.

Racism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six
http://en.wikipedia....ooting_incident

The four assassination attempts on Barack Obama's life already.
People who lie and can't bring themselves to vote for a minority.

Healthcare
47 million Americans without insurance, including 15 million children.

Education
Admittedly fantastic higher education, but secondary education and below is god awful. You can thank Bush's "No Child Left Behind Act" for weakening the education system, disgustingly low standards.

And keep your Christian "values" and creationist "morals" out of education.

Gun Control
Conservatives don't mind the Bush administration suspending the right of habeus corpus - giving them control to hold people in jail without charges or testimony, one of the most fundamental rights of a democracy - but they passionately defend the right to shoot deer and wildlife to honor their "rich heritage".

http://en.wikipedia....School_massacre

[Eugine]

Well, when he said 'internal terrorism', I assumed he was talking about the government itself killing Americans (like the 9/11 conspiracy theories)... But anyway GL, you'll find haters in every country. Look at the Iraqis who kill their own people...

I honestly think wealth inequality is a big problem, but um, I don't agree with Obama's solution of income redistribution.

Racism is everywhere GL, lol. It isn't sanctioned by the government though, and that's the most important thing... Plus, I always point to Obama when people assume racism is SO BAD in USA.

I'm sure that healthcare figure includes illegals, but w/e. It's a problem yeah...

Atleast the man tried lol, give him some credit. But yeah, your education system needs some overhaul badly. But honestly, I think honor codes should be returned to secondary schools... You know, not Christian values, but Eagle Scout values of the sort.

Come on GL, those people were caught on the battlefield. I strongly agree with President Bush on that issue tbh. Why should people who were caught trying to KILL US soldiers be treated the same as a POW or an American citizen? Plus, it is proven that some of those terrorists who were released from those camps were caught on the battlefield firing against US soldiers AGAIN. I don't agree with torturing innocents, but terrorists do NOT deserve the same rights as a normal citizen.
Edit: Those people do not represent a country, so the US military cannot classify them as a POW.

[Ironsight]

If I had a dollar for every time somebody used a highschool shooting as the base for their gun control argument, I'd have a ****load of dollars.

[Golden Legacy]

Eugine, on Sep 15 2008, 11:14 PM, said:

Well, when he said 'internal terrorism', I assumed he was talking about the government itself killing Americans (like the 9/11 conspiracy theories)... But anyway GL, you'll find haters in every country. Look at the Iraqis who kill their own people...

Violence erupted after we invaded. We took sides in a civil war, a civil war that manifested itself in response to America's invasion.

Quote

I honestly think wealth inequality is a big problem, but um, I don't agree with Obama's solution of income redistribution.

I'm getting sick of this. Stop spewing out your right-winged junk about Obama being a socialist.

He wants to end the Bush tax cuts that have favored the wealthy, and give those tax breaks to the middle class that deserves it more.

That's supporting 95% of the population, as opposed to the elite 1%.

Typical conservative mantra: "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer".

Quote

Racism is everywhere GL, lol. It isn't sanctioned by the government though, and that's the most important thing... Plus, I always point to Obama when people assume racism is SO BAD in USA.

Racism is just as rampant in the USA. The difference here is that it's hushed up, as opposed to Europe and other places where it is rampant and obvious. But, it's to the same degree. In fact, I'd say it's worse in the USA, since people are over-sensitive to it. Complain of racism? You're pulling the "race card".

Miley Cyrus, on Sep 15 2008, 11:21 PM, said:

If I had a dollar for every time somebody used a highschool shooting as the base for their gun control argument, I'd have a ****load of dollars.

Aww, does the wittle conservative want to have guns? Does he want to be a "big boy"?

Quote

I'm sure that healthcare figure includes illegals, but w/e. It's a problem yeah...

Are you another one of those who blames illegals for everything? For the record, that figure is solely American citizens.

Quote

Atleast the man tried lol, give him some credit. But yeah, your education system needs some overhaul badly. But honestly, I think honor codes should be returned to secondary schools... You know, not Christian values, but Eagle Scout values of the sort.

The entire education system needs an overhaul. Nothing to do with values, but how society treats school and trains kids to think school is a daily burden.

Quote

Come on GL, those people were caught on the battlefield. I strongly agree with President Bush on that issue tbh. Why should people who were caught trying to KILL US soldiers be treated the same as a POW or an American citizen? Plus, it is proven that some of those terrorists who were released from those camps were caught on the battlefield firing against US soldiers AGAIN. I don't agree with torturing innocents, but terrorists do NOT deserve the same rights as a normal citizen.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, America!
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/pilot...list/index.html

[Split Infinity]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 16 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

And you think banning all guns is a bad idea? All that does is keep guns out of the hands of citiczens who go though all the procedures to won and fire a gun. Not the people who aquire them illegally, and then use them on un-armed citiczens. It's foolish to think that banning guns altogether will work, because things just aren't that black and white.

The number of situations in which a civilian has successfully defended themselves with a firearm is negligable, compared to how many times they were killed for trying to gain the upper hand.

[Gio]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 15 2008, 10:01 PM, said:

Class Inequality
Top 1% of American population owns 60% of the wealth.

It is called Capitalism. And just to set the record straight, government controlled healthcare is a socialist belief.

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Sep 16 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

lol wow... The hate is extreme =)Internal terrorism? Prove it.Class inequality? It's worse when you look at it on a worldwide scale. Plus, Americans have more money overall than other countries, but yeah, there is inequality.Racism? I'll like to see a black man become Prime Minister of Australia =)Corrupt healthcare? I can't put spin on that one lmao. Don't think government regulation is the answer though, but it needs some oversight tbh.Crap education? America has the best higher education in the world. By far the best actually. Actually, it's unbeatable. I dunno what's wrong with their secondary school though... I think that simply injecting money into the system, while pulling out values and honor codes (mostly a liberal idea tbh) is killing their education.Gun laws? What insane gun laws? Elaborate?

Thanks to GL for doing most of it for me.

KKKFirst line on the page-"Ku Klux Klan (KKK) is the name of several past and present secret domestic terrorist organizations in the United States"

Class Inequality GL answered.

KKK also falls under racism.Racism in USA
See gangs, Black, Latino, Whites and more modern, Arabs.Yes Racism also exists here in Australia, I won't deny it. But check things like the Race Riots a few years ago, not provoked by Aussies.

Corrupt Healthcare, go watch Sicko by Mike Moore. What kind of Western country doesn't have basic public healthcare, Cuba has better healthcare then USA.

Education:According to a recent US government report, The State of Literacy in America, released by the National Institute for Literacy (NIL), there has been a significant growth in illiteracy in America. Over 90 million US adults, nearly one out of two, are functionally illiterate or near illiterate, without the minimum skills required in a modern society.The report is a devastating portrait of the social conditions in capitalist America, the country generally portrayed as the most advanced in the world. Out of 191 million adults in the US, as many as 44 million cannot read a newspaper or fill out a job application. Another 50 million more cannot read or comprehend above the eighth grade level.

Gun Laws:School Shootings are one and I don't really want to expand on it because of the vast amount of deaths anyway.Gun Deaths in AmericaIn 2001 it totaled 29,573. In Australia in 2003 there were 290, now Australia has a population of say 20 Million, while that statistic came from a population of 285,317,572, so take that into account I need to times 290 Aussie deaths by 14.26 to equal the population differences out, that bring us to 4137, 25436 less then America.

Gio, on Sep 16 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

It is called Capitalism. And just to set the record straight, government controlled healthcare is a socialist belief.

My friends, welcome to Australia, Cuba, Canda, New Zealand, England and France. **** I'm sure Serbia has free healthcare. Yes even those wicked French who would not take part in Gulf War 2, but never mind them, we'll get back at them by renaming our fried chips from French Fries to Freedom FriesOh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light...And Gio, all Western Nations are Capitalist, why do you think Communism was defeated. But not all Western Nations are that unbalanced. You wanna see what I'm talking about? Go check out Flint, Michigan.

Edit- I did a double post because I didn't see Gio's post. Hence the crap layout of the post.

[Ironsight]

watch, on Sep 15 2008, 08:42 PM, said:

My Yes even those wicked French who would not take part in Gulf War 2, but never mind them, we'll get back at them by renaming our fried chips from French Fries to Freedom Fries

The name never stuck, they're still called French fries.

[Eugine]

You screwed up my post watch :(.

Anyway, you (and to an extent GL) are really unfair, and wrong. Both of you guys are using radicals, ie people who are not mainstream with American culture as examples as to why America is bad. In every country you'll find nuts, no doubt abot that, but to say the KKK is an example of why America is a bad country is insane. The KKK has 8,000 members. Do they represent the American people fairly? Hell no.
I'm not saying there isn't racism in USA... There is, but to say America is a racist country is insane. America is the only country where people of all race can succeed. And that is a fact.
And before you come down on USA, you better take a look at your country. Still treating those indigenous Australians unfairly? I bet yah are. Now that's institutional racism.

You know what, this is insane. I'm too annoyed to respond to your post, but GL, Obama do believe in income redistribution. About 40% of Americans do not pay ANYFORM of taxes. Obama do not want to give them tax breaks (cuz how could they? They pay NO taxes), but he wants to take the money from the rich and give the poor money through checks. There's a difference with giving the poor tax breaks and giving them checks, the latter IS income redistribution.

[Gio]

watch, on Sep 15 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

My friends, welcome to Australia, Cuba, Canda, New Zealand, England and France. **** I'm sure Serbia has free healthcare. Yes even those wicked French who would not take part in Gulf War 2, but never mind them, we'll get back at them by renaming our fried chips from French Fries to Freedom FriesOh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light...And Gio, all Western Nations are Capitalist, why do you think Communism was defeated. But not all Western Nations are that unbalanced. You wanna see what I'm talking about? Go check out Flint, Michigan.

Edit- I did a double post because I didn't see Gio's post. Hence the crap layout of the post.

But after you pair that with redistribution of wealth and many other things going on in this country you get socialism.

[Split Infinity]

It's not socialism, it's welfare.

[Eugine]

As much as the Europeans want to deny it, their system is socialistic. Come on, just look at Itality... If you can find ONE capitalistic party there, tell me.
Italy is probably the worst when it comes to income redistribution. The government freakin' takes control of private property whenever it wants.

Edit: And Split, it IS socialism.

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Sep 16 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

You screwed up my post watch :(.

Anyway, you (and to an extent GL) are really unfair, and wrong. Both of you guys are using radicals, ie people who are not mainstream with American culture as examples as to why America is bad. In every country you'll find nuts, no doubt abot that, but to say the KKK is an example of why America is a bad country is insane. The KKK has 8,000 members. Do they represent the American people fairly? Hell no.
I'm not saying there isn't racism in USA... There is, but to say America is a racist country is insane. America is the only country where people of all race can succeed. And that is a fact.
And before you come down on USA, you better take a look at your country. Still treating those indigenous Australians unfairly? I bet yah are. Now that's institutional racism.

I will admit I do use radical examples, but that's all I have available to me. I'm not American, I have no American relatives, I've been there once. I was 4.
And the KKK are remnants of the mutual feelings once shared by Whites in the South against Blacks. Check Civil War, Rosa Parks, Freedom Riders, when the Black and White schools were integrated (can't think of the word). What other nation in the world had 4 different toilets for people.

I would not say America is the only nation where people of all race can succeed. I had written a whole part about Arabs and 9/11 and being treat unfairly and all that but it didn't flow very well.
Check Australia Eugine, the 3rd largest Greek population in the world outside of Greece and Cyprus. Not to mention heaps of other nationalities, my old school had more foreigners then whites.

And yes Eugine I am well aware of my Countries faults. I'll list them for you.
Racism against Wogs, Arabs, Asians, Blacks, Whites. Everyone is racist here, if you think Australia isn't racist you are delusional.
Inequality, parts of Australia are wealthier then others, and this applies in some aspects to classes.
Our government supports America. That's a massive problem.
I can't really think of anything else, maybe Split and Lemon could chime in here.

And at least we apologised to our Aboriginals Eugine. We admitted our wrong doings, has America done that? Have they apologised to the Blacks for 200 years of slavery, lynchings and deprivation of basic rights? Have they apologised to the Native Indians for taking their land, destroying their population and putting them in reservations?

Still treating our Aboriginals unfairly? What's that? We gave them the land they wanted and money. And when it comes to the point we need to replace petrol with special petrol you can't sniff, introduce a harsher welfare system so they can't spend it all on grog and send in teams to stop the rampant sexual and physical abuse of children, then it's gone to far and it's obvious they can't handle their own affairs.

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 15 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

Violence erupted after we invaded. We took sides in a civil war, a civil war that manifested itself in response to America's invasion.


I'm getting sick of this. Stop spewing out your right-winged junk about Obama being a socialist.

He wants to end the Bush tax cuts that have favored the wealthy, and give those tax breaks to the middle class that deserves it more.

That's supporting 95% of the population, as opposed to the elite 1%.

Typical conservative mantra: "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer".


Racism is just as rampant in the USA. The difference here is that it's hushed up, as opposed to Europe and other places where it is rampant and obvious. But, it's to the same degree. In fact, I'd say it's worse in the USA, since people are over-sensitive to it. Complain of racism? You're pulling the "race card".


Aww, does the wittle conservative want to have guns? Does he want to be a "big boy"?


Are you another one of those who blames illegals for everything? For the record, that figure is solely American citizens.


The entire education system needs an overhaul. Nothing to do with values, but how society treats school and trains kids to think school is a daily burden.


Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, America!
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/pilot...list/index.html

GL, WHENEVER there is a change in government (i.e. communism to capitalism, etc.) there are people who disagree Civil war will be brought about in almost every instance of it. We have given them a Democracy, which is something that most Iraqi's are greatful for. A civil war doesn't last forever. Besides that, you'd still be mad even if we pulled out before the civil war was finished, because you'd claim that we went in there, messed things up, and left 'em for dead. Quit trying to make the Iraq war look bad, because at this point in time, it's actually starting to look like it was a good idea. On top of that, I'll repeat myself yet again, most Iraqi's are glad that we've given them a democracy.


Obama is borderline Socialist, GL. The farther left winged you get, the more socialist you get. Liberal ideals give the government more power. Socialist ideals in turn give it even more power. Redistribution of wealth (which is something Obama would like to do), is a socialist idea. The government is controlling the cashflow. That's what it is.

I will repeat myself again. Tax breaks are good no matter which class recieves them. You used to say about my stance on things, that "it's not that black and white." Well, this isn't either. The less taxes you have to pay on an item, the more likely you are to buy that item, am I right? And when you buy things, you're putting money back into the economy. Well, wouldn't it make sense then to drop the taxes for everyone? Seeing as the upper-class are the most likely to spend the most money, it makes perfect sense to give them tax cuts. I am not, however, saying that the rest of the cticzens shouldn't recieve taxcuts. Lower taxes for them means easier lives for them, and since they make up the largest portion of the population, they do a fair amount of the purchasing aswell.

Taxcuts should not be inacted for any single class, nor should any single class be left out of a tax cut. In general, it makes the most sense to reduce taxes for all citiczens, because lower taxes promote spending of wealth, and in turn, boost the economy (not to mention that even if taxes are lower, if there's more spending going on, you're likely to see just as much, if not more, of a decrease in government deficit).

Increased taxes for anyone =/= lower deficit or boosted economy.

Quote

Typical conservative mantra: "the ambitious and hard-working get richer, the lazy get poorer".

Fix'd


If racism was just as rampant, I wouldn't see groups of friends with black, white, and mexicans in them nearly as often as I do at school. I can't remember the last time I saw or heard a racist remark that wasn't a joke between friends. Racism is not as rampant here as it is in any other country. However, it's been policed far more heavily lately. To the point where it's becomming rediculous.


Yeah, I DO want to be a "big boy," so I can shoot at a burglar's feet if he tries to break into my gosh darned house. It is FAR wiser to put guns in responsible civilian's hands, than to take away that right and leave them only for those who wish to obtain them illegally for illegal activities. Such as breaking into houses.

Taking away the right to bear arms only makes sense if you can take away the guns all together. Unfortunately, something liike that is borderline impossible.

So quit making the dim-witted assumption that taking guns away from civilians is a good idea, because our fore-fathers gave us that right for a reason. Even though the world we live in today is entirely different, the reasons for the right to bear arms are still applicable.


Even so, 47million out of 303,824,000 is only 1/6 of the population at best. Not bad for a private-healthcare-dominated market (which is by far better than government run healthcare, which is what most countries who offer "free healthcare" have).


I'll agree with you on this one. The education system needs an overhaul. Kids need to be allowed to fail. They also need to be able to drop out of highschool regardless of whether or not they're 18. Just letting them ride their way through regardless of their grades is an absolutely stupid idea. And as far as the standardized tests go, even though they represent a better idea of the student's overall knowledge and should be used somewhat as a basis for college entry (which would be benificial in my case, since I'm smart and lazy), they need need to be less important. Though I hate to say it since my work ethic usually produces B's at best, the actual grade needs to be more important than the tests. An above-average mind might be needed to get to the top, but good work ethic will keep you afloat no matter what rung on the ladder you're able to reach. Besides that, and employer would rather have someone with a good work ethic that they can train, than some lazy person who already knows how to do the job pefectly.

And teachers in general need to learn how to make a class interesting for every individual. The more interested and engaged you are in what's being taught, the easier the work will seem, and the better your grades will be.


No, you give one out of a handful of people. That kind of thing doesn't actually happen that often. There's ways to figure out if you're on that list, and there's ways to make clean your good name aswell.


Quit saying that America is such a bad place, because I doubt you've even been to more than a handful of states yourself. Personally? I've lived in three, spent at least 4 days to a week in probably 5 others (two weeks in at least two), and have passed through (driving, not flying) numerous others. Everything from north-western states to south-eastern ones (I lived in Florida for 3 years, and we always passed through Georgia on our way to my Aunt's house in Tennesee when we visited. I'm currently living in Washington, and I visit Oregon 3-6 times a year, and Idaho at least once a year). My family even went on a cross-country road trip a year or two ago from here to Tennesee.

From what I've seen, there's a fair share of stupid people, or people who're just rude and have no manners or sense of morals. However, there's far more people who have a good sense of right from wrong, and actually realise that America isn't the only country in the world.

[My Best Wishes]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 16 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

Taking away the right to bear arms only makes sense if you can take away the guns all together. Unfortunately, something liike that is borderline impossible.

So quit making the dim-witted assumption that taking guns away from civilians is a good idea, because our fore-fathers gave us that right for a reason.

Your fore-fathers committed treason by writing your constitution.

[Eugine]

lol, you really hate America do you? I think the Founding Fathers are great but w/e.

And how so watch?

[Toasty]

watch, on Sep 15 2008, 10:01 PM, said:

Your fore-fathers committed treason by writing your constitution.

Treason against a real tyrant is a good thing. In case you didn't notice.

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine I really don't hate America. I hate the stereotypical American, the beer drinking redneck, the Paris Hiltons and Britney Spears. I hate the greedy corporations like Nike, I hate the crap that comes out of America like the crap movies (not all) and the rap and Hip-hop. I hate America policing the World, I hate George Bush.
And I just love stirring people like Toasty and Icy up.
I think some parts of America's awsome, I can't wait to get there and hit up Cali and Utah. I wanna go to NYC and check out the landmarks and go to pubs and clubs there, and have a good time like all the Sitcoms I watch.

At the time of the Founding Fathers America was an English Colony. By writing up their constitution they were seceding, much like the South from the North.

[Toasty]

I hate all of those too except for George Bush. And occaisionally, the world needs to be policed. The UN sure as hell doesn't work like it's supposed to, so sometimes, America (being the world superpower/big brother) needs to step in and keep the peace between the other countries (quarreling siblings). Sometimes it's not enitrely needed, and can even turn out poorley (Vietnam), but other times, it turns out to be beneficial to not only the US and the countries involved, but to other countries not direclty involved aswell (the invasion of Iraq).

Most of the Paris Hilton's and Britney Spears' live in California, btw. And New York has the Bronx, where most Rap and Hip-Hop origionated.

And the Founding Fathers had a good reason for detaching from England. England was trying to force the colonists to live how they wanted them to ive, not how the colonists wanted to live. The Founding Fathers created the Constitution to give the colonies a chance at a fair lifestyle free of oppression.

[My Best Wishes]

You can spin it anyway you want Toasty, you don't need to explain it, I know the story. But the fact is your Fore-Fathers commited Treason.
The same way the first Australians were Convicts.

[Toasty]

Watch, the fact is, is that it was a good thing.

Is treason against the Nazis a good or bad thing? It's a similar situation.

[My Best Wishes]

Yes it's a good thing, but it's still Treason. Like how stealing to feed your family can be considered the right thing to do, but it's still stealing.

[Toasty]

Watch, will you quit being so stubborn?

Haven't you ever heard that rules were meant ot be followed, unless they hinder justice itself? The law against treason was preventing the colonies from having justice.

[My Best Wishes]

How the **** am I being stubborn. I get what you're saying. The colonies commited Treason because of the unfair and unjust actions by the British and all that ****.
What I'm saying is that your actions are what they are, no matter your good/bad intentions.

Seriously how is this even still going.

[Toasty]

Intentions are what matter the most. It'd be far better to want to save someone's life because you care about them, rather than to just bake yourself look good. That's my point.

And this is still going because you don't understand that.

[Split Infinity]

So it's better to let the person die rather than save them for the glory?

[Toasty]

No. Thre comes a point where the action should be done regardless of intentions.

But, my point is that treason is perfectly fine and acceptable if it's against an oppressive ruler who is preventing the oppressed from having justice.

[My Best Wishes]

It's still an illegal act! If I blew up a carload of people because one person in that car would eventually kill 1000 people, it wouldn't change the fact I killed a carload of people, despite my intentions for the greater good.

[Toasty]

That's a carload versus a 1000. I'd try and wate for a more oportune time than blowing up the car, but if that was the absolute only option, it'd be better than leting the 1000 people die.

[EDIT] Here's a video of a soldier talking about the war in Iraq, and how Obama doesn't understand why we're there.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TG4fe9GlWS8

GL, feel free to scoff at the music and claim that he's payed by the government to say this.

Though truthfully, they didn't have to use a guy with a missing limb. They could've just put a guy in uniform instead.

[My Best Wishes]

So that's one Soldier, used for a purpose because he supported McCain, as opposed to the soldiers who wrote to Michael Moore about the Iraq war. Different people, different view points Toasty, it flows both ways.

Will They Ever Trust Us Agin
More Letters
And yes Michael Moore would have been selective about the letters they published, but do you think the McCain administration would have used an anti-Iraq war solider to promote McCain?

[Toasty]

Neither would use someone who's against their ideals to promote their ideals. My point, is that there are soldiers, and people in Iraq, that support what the war is for.

What I find annoying though, is how people will insist that the war was a bad idea, and that it was a complete waste, when it has such obvious benefits. There's alwasy going to be people against a war. There were even people who were against getting involved in WWII, even after Pearl Harbor. You just heard more about the war being bad, because the Left is full of a bunch of pansy dim-wits who also, unfortunately, didn't want the war, and control most of the media.

Even if there's a thousand people who support something, if all you ever hear about is the ten who don't, then the number who do support it won't matter. People will still think that there's more people who don't support whatever's going on.

[My Best Wishes]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 16 2008, 04:49 PM, said:

Neither would use someone who's against their ideals to promote their ideals. My point, is that there are soldiers, and people in Iraq, that support what the war is for.

What I find annoying though, is how people will insist that the war was a bad idea, and that it was a complete waste, when it has such obvious benefits. There's alwasy going to be people against a war. There were even people who were against getting involved in WWII, even after Pearl Harbor. You just heard more about the war being bad, because the Left is full of a bunch of pansy dim-wits who also, unfortunately, didn't want the war, and control most of the media.

Even if there's a thousand people who support something, if all you ever hear about is the ten who don't, then the number who do support it won't matter. People will still think that there's more people who don't support whatever's going on.

And there are soldiers who are against the war as well, quite a number by the looks of it.
And the people who support the war are probably all like these people.

And Toasty, I'm sure the government may have some control of the media in your country, but I'm damn sure your government doesn't control mine or England's media.

[Saturos S.]

Eugine, on Sep 15 2008, 01:37 AM, said:

I could swear it was the Iraqis who hanged Saddam, but w/e, no one here really regards the facts =)

The new Iraq government came to power by Saddam being kicked out by the Americans. Of course they were going to kill him for his popularity sake, and if not then the Americans could have pressured them to.

Eugine, on Sep 16 2008, 06:11 AM, said:

As much as the Europeans want to deny it, their system is socialistic. Come on, just look at Itality... If you can find ONE capitalistic party there, tell me.
Italy is probably the worst when it comes to income redistribution. The government freakin' takes control of private property whenever it wants.

Edit: And Split, it IS socialism.

Italy is politically the most f'd up country there is in Europe. Way to pick one, they reform their government every year (they never make it to the four years) because of popularity shifts, opposition etc.

Our system is more socialistic than the American, sure. That's because we give more health insurance policies etc. to the poor, old, wounded etc. We actually have a health plan.

----

Iraq war concerned, if the idea wasn't a mistake itself. The execution surely was, politically as well as on the battlefield.

[Gio]

watch, on Sep 15 2008, 11:51 PM, said:

I will admit I do use radical examples, but that's all I have available to me. I'm not American, I have no American relatives, I've been there once. I was 4.
And the KKK are remnants of the mutual feelings once shared by Whites in the South against Blacks. Check Civil War, Rosa Parks, Freedom Riders, when the Black and White schools were integrated (can't think of the word). What other nation in the world had 4 different toilets for people.

I would not say America is the only nation where people of all race can succeed. I had written a whole part about Arabs and 9/11 and being treat unfairly and all that but it didn't flow very well.
Check Australia Eugine, the 3rd largest Greek population in the world outside of Greece and Cyprus. Not to mention heaps of other nationalities, my old school had more foreigners then whites.

And yes Eugine I am well aware of my Countries faults. I'll list them for you.
Racism against Wogs, Arabs, Asians, Blacks, Whites. Everyone is racist here, if you think Australia isn't racist you are delusional.
Inequality, parts of Australia are wealthier then others, and this applies in some aspects to classes.
Our government supports America. That's a massive problem.
I can't really think of anything else, maybe Split and Lemon could chime in here.

And at least we apologised to our Aboriginals Eugine. We admitted our wrong doings, has America done that? Have they apologised to the Blacks for 200 years of slavery, lynchings and deprivation of basic rights? Have they apologised to the Native Indians for taking their land, destroying their population and putting them in reservations?

Still treating our Aboriginals unfairly? What's that? We gave them the land they wanted and money. And when it comes to the point we need to replace petrol with special petrol you can't sniff, introduce a harsher welfare system so they can't spend it all on grog and send in teams to stop the rampant sexual and physical abuse of children, then it's gone to far and it's obvious they can't handle their own affairs.

Has anyone here realized that getting a scholarship for a white male is much harder to do than for anyone else in the United States. This would be because of organizations like the NAACP. But if there were an organization in the country for the advancement of white people it would be racist. Don't get me wrong I am not saying the NAACP is a bad thing, I am just saying that racism goes both ways in this country.

watch, on Sep 16 2008, 12:01 AM, said:

Your fore-fathers committed treason by writing your constitution.

Your right, but I still laughed.

[Golden Legacy]

In school now, don't have time to respond, but:

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 16 2008, 12:56 AM, said:

GL, WHENEVER there is a change in government (i.e. communism to capitalism, etc.) there are people who disagree Civil war will be brought about in almost every instance of it. We have given them a Democracy, which is something that most Iraqi's are greatful for. A civil war doesn't last forever. Besides that, you'd still be mad even if we pulled out before the civil war was finished, because you'd claim that we went in there, messed things up, and left 'em for dead. Quit trying to make the Iraq war look bad, because at this point in time, it's actually starting to look like it was a good idea. On top of that, I'll repeat myself yet again, most Iraqi's are glad that we've given them a democracy.

When I get back home I'm going to link you to a firsthand experience of Iraq from a Christian Arab. Essence here is while people may not have liked Saddam, at least they had a decent infrastructure, water, food, education, etc.


If Obama is a socialist, then Bush is a fascist. I would gladly take the former.

Quote

So quit making the dim-witted assumption that taking guns away from civilians is a good idea, because our fore-fathers gave us that right for a reason. Even though the world we live in today is entirely different, the reasons for the right to bear arms are still applicable.

Ahh, the American forefathers! Slaveowners. Mistresses. Never intended to give women the right to vote. Blacks were sold as property. Presenting the head of a Native American would get you land. "All Men are created equal" only works for white Christian males.

Quote

Typical conservative mantra: "the ambitious and hard-working get richer, the lazy get poorer".

Since 1980, the average wealth of the top 1% richest of the USA has increased by 455%.
In that same time period, the middle-class family has seen its income drop by 4-5%.

So, the elite 1% richest are working 455% harder?

Quote

Quit saying that America is such a bad place, because I doubt you've even been to more than a handful of states yourself. Personally? I've lived in three, spent at least 4 days to a week in probably 5 others (two weeks in at least two), and have passed through (driving, not flying) numerous others. Everything from north-western states to south-eastern ones (I lived in Florida for 3 years, and we always passed through Georgia on our way to my Aunt's house in Tennesee when we visited. I'm currently living in Washington, and I visit Oregon 3-6 times a year, and Idaho at least once a year). My family even went on a cross-country road trip a year or two ago from here to Tennesee.

And here I will prove how gravely foolish you are to make assumptions about others.

I have traveled to 18 states (spent a week at least in each), worked and given community service in 7 of them (2 weeks minimum) or traveled with the family to them, and have lived in 3 states. New York and Massachusetts and Vermont up north, all the way south to Georgia and Florida, each and every state that borders the entire eastern coast of the United States, and as far west as Iowa, Michigan, and Minnesota.

Don't you dare make assumptions about others. Don't you dare assume you have a better handling of perspective. And don't you dare tell me I don't know how Americans are. I've spent time with them, more than you have, in more states, and its more than one person can handle, let me tell you. If it weren't for places like NYC or Boston that have some sense of culture and education, one only knows how much worse America would be.

[Legolastom]

Toasty I used to have respect for you but ****ing hell, you are a disgusting ignorant excuse for a human being.

[Gio]

That was definitely a bit over the top.
Heck this whole topic is. I am out.

[Saturos S.]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 16 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

Ahh, the American forefathers! Slaveowners. Mistresses. Never intended to give women the right to vote. Blacks were sold as property. Presenting the head of a Native American would get you land. "All Men are created equal" only works for white Christian males.

But most of the world is guilty on having slaves and never intending women to vote.

[Eugine]

And the American consitution was written in a way that allowed the wrongs to be corrected. You know constitutional amendments...
And why do you act like if that was distinct to USA GL? It was everywhere...

So GL, since USA is so bad, which country do you think is the 'best' in the world?

[Saturos S.]

Eugine, on Sep 16 2008, 08:08 PM, said:

So GL, since USA is so bad, which country do you think is the 'best' in the world?

First off, don't '' best, it's suggesting you disagree to start with. Be more open.

And I don't think it's fair to label any country as the best, each and every country has it's flaws, those flaws are different to everyone. I certainly wouldn't label the Netherlands as the best country, because I know it's flaws, neither would I label America, because I know it's flaws. Basically, the country you think is the 'best' country in the world, you probably don't know well enough. I don't want to be unpatriotic, I love the Netherlands for a lot of things, but I don't want to be blind either.

~ 1402, since I missed the 1400 ~

[Split Infinity]

Eugine, if letting the poor starve to death because they can't afford bare necesseties is democracy well... that's not democracy.

Welfare is different to socialism in that the recipients don't earn nearly as much as the working classes. It's intended to provide them with a base to find their feet while at the same time encouraging them to find a better income.

[Golden Legacy]

Saturos Striker, on Sep 16 2008, 01:54 PM, said:

But most of the world is guilty on having slaves and never intending women to vote.

Eugine, on Sep 16 2008, 02:08 PM, said:

And the American consitution was written in a way that allowed the wrongs to be corrected. You know constitutional amendments...
And why do you act like if that was distinct to USA GL? It was everywhere...

I'm dispelling the notion that many Americans have about the USA that it's perfect, can do no wrong, and was founded on purely benevolent ideologies. That's all. I'm well aware that it's not limited to the USA, I just get sick of the backward minded idiots who think it's unpatriotic to know the truth about their country, however maimed and "not pretty" it is.

I don't have a "best" country either. All, most, many, etc. countries in the world should be respected, have their own cultures and peoples to honor. Believe me, it's not a loss for me at all to not be a wacko patriot who is blinded by "love" for the USA. Not only do I not mind, but being here and having witnessed firsthand the flaws here, it's only natural that this is the country I have criticisms of, that I speak out against issues that need to be addressed.

[Split Infinity]

Actually, Denmark is the best country in the world.

Just so you know.

[Ironsight]

Split Infinity, on Sep 16 2008, 03:54 PM, said:

Actually, Denmark is the best country in the world.

Just so you know.

Hell yeah! Go Denmark!

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 16 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

In school now, don't have time to respond, but:


When I get back home I'm going to link you to a firsthand experience of Iraq from a Christian Arab. Essence here is while people may not have liked Saddam, at least they had a decent infrastructure, water, food, education, etc.


If Obama is a socialist, then Bush is a fascist. I would gladly take the former.



Ahh, the American forefathers! Slaveowners. Mistresses. Never intended to give women the right to vote. Blacks were sold as property. Presenting the head of a Native American would get you land. "All Men are created equal" only works for white Christian males.



Since 1980, the average wealth of the top 1% richest of the USA has increased by 455%.
In that same time period, the middle-class family has seen its income drop by 4-5%.

So, the elite 1% richest are working 455% harder?



And here I will prove how gravely foolish you are to make assumptions about others.

I have traveled to 18 states (spent a week at least in each), worked and given community service in 7 of them (2 weeks minimum) or traveled with the family to them, and have lived in 3 states. New York and Massachusetts and Vermont up north, all the way south to Georgia and Florida, each and every state that borders the entire eastern coast of the United States, and as far west as Iowa, Michigan, and Minnesota.

Don't you dare make assumptions about others. Don't you dare assume you have a better handling of perspective. And don't you dare tell me I don't know how Americans are. I've spent time with them, more than you have, in more states, and its more than one person can handle, let me tell you. If it weren't for places like NYC or Boston that have some sense of culture and education, one only knows how much worse America would be.

I think I will. If you've even been to the western coast, from the sounds of it you haven't stayed there for long. I may have never been to the eastern coastal states (actually, I may have been to at least one), but my range of travel is wider than yours.


Bush is a facist? Name three "facist" policies that Bush has introduced. Conservatism is on the completely opposite end of the spectrum. The more left-winged you get, the more power the government has. The more right-winged you get, the more power the people have (though also with more of an emphasis on the military).


As for the 455% thing, most of those people already did the work. Now they're just reaping the benefits.

Though there's obviously people like, say, Britney Spears who got rich with out really a whole lot of effort (though I'm sure it wasn't entirely easy), you also have people like Bill Gates who did a lot of work to start up a company that now makes billions of dollars a year.

Britney Spears might have had it fairly easy, but Bill Gates worked to get Microsoft where it is today. And he's rich because of his work.

[Eugine]

Split Infinity, on Sep 16 2008, 06:27 PM, said:

Eugine, if letting the poor starve to death because they can't afford bare necesseties is democracy well... that's not democracy.

Really? Go look at the definition of democracy =)

Split Infinity, on Sep 16 2008, 06:27 PM, said:

Welfare is different to socialism in that the recipients don't earn nearly as much as the working classes. It's intended to provide them with a base to find their feet while at the same time encouraging them to find a better income.

And this has to do with what?

[Toasty]

Split Infinity, on Sep 16 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

Welfare is different to socialism in that the recipients don't earn nearly as much as the working classes. It's intended to provide them with a base to find their feet while at the same time encouraging them to find a better income.

the problem with that, is that people who get on wellfare either find that it's really hard to get back on their feet (becaus eof how welfare is set up), or they just don't even bother. I was friends with a kid in Florida who's parents lived on welfare because they were "too overweight to work." Yet they were perfectly capable of walking around and driving. They could have at least gotten desk jobs, but they didn't even try.

I don't even know why I was friends with the kid though. His parents spoiled him and he was a pansy little brat. His parents weren't all that great either.

[Split Infinity]

Eugine, on Sep 17 2008, 01:48 PM, said:

Really? Go look at the definition of democracy =)

And this has to do with what?

It's helping people so they can help themselves. The latter is democracy, is it not?

[Eugine]

Well, a democracy is not about feeding the starving or providing basic services for anyone, it is more about allowing the citizens the right to choose their government through free and fair elections. Of course in a democracy you have to protect the rights of citizens and ensure the law treats everyone equally.

Now, I think you're confusing democracy with the role of government. If the government role is to feed the poor then so be it, but it has nothing to do with democracy (for eg, providing welfare can be a 'role of government'.)

Actually, just Google the stuff...

[Toasty]

Split Infinity, on Sep 16 2008, 09:05 PM, said:

It's helping people so they can help themselves. The latter is democracy, is it not?

Giving people money doesn't allow them to help themselves. Showing people how to get money allows them to help themselves.

[Blue]

o.o;;
Well, I sure walked into a bad thread.
I don't know whether to say something about 9/11, or get into the argument.

[My Best Wishes]

Both would be nice, all the Yanks piss off whenever a thread like this starts up.
By the way, Eugine what side are you on? You used to always be anti-USA. Never coming to your house for dinner again, don't care what kind of cake your mum bakes this time.

[Split Infinity]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 17 2008, 03:35 PM, said:

Giving people money doesn't allow them to help themselves. Showing people how to get money allows them to help themselves.

Unfortunately the government can't afford a university education for every homeless person in the state.

[Toasty]

And therin lies the problem.

Waste money on people who are going to waste it, or spend money you don't have educating these people so they can enter the workforce?

[My Best Wishes]

How about you improve your school system so the next generation doesn't have the same problem. Or you could invade a bunch of poorly equipped 3rd world Militia and spend all your money on that.

[Blue]

Well all I'm going to say is this.
9/11 didn't faze me. I kept living my life as I would have if it never had happen. Except I'm paying out the ass for gas.

[Toasty]

Well gas is down to $3.83 here, or something like that.

And Watch, I don't know, maybe because protecting our asses (and many other's aswell) from terrorism takes higher priority?

School is important. Living is more important. You can't have a good school system if you're contantly under the threat of a terrorist attack.

[Split Infinity]

And when was the last time America was hit by a terrorist attack?

[My Best Wishes]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 17 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

Well gas is down to $3.83 here, or something like that.

And Watch, I don't know, maybe because protecting our asses (and many other's aswell) from terrorism takes higher priority?

School is important. Living is more important. You can't have a good school system if you're contantly under the threat of a terrorist attack.

Please Toasty. You're the worlds superpower, during the Cold War you had enough bombs to destroy the Earth like 6 times over, and that was at least 19 years ago. Imagine how many bombs and **** you have now, and you really expect me to believe a bunch of 3rd World peasants are a threat to you?

Split Infinity, on Sep 17 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

And when was the last time America was hit by a terrorist attack?

1993 WTC Bombing
Oklahoma City Bombing

[Split Infinity]

Right. Those were fifteen and thirteen years ago, and one of them wasn't even externally initiated. Since the security step-up nobody has even touched America, or Australia, or any other western country I can think of. You can't claim you're defending yourselves, especially when you have such a bloated nuclear stock.

[Toasty]

watch, on Sep 17 2008, 12:43 AM, said:

Please Toasty. You're the worlds superpower, during the Cold War you had enough bombs to destroy the Earth like 6 times over, and that was at least 19 years ago. Imagine how many bombs and **** you have now, and you really expect me to believe a bunch of 3rd World peasants are a threat to you?


1993 WTC Bombing
Oklahoma City Bombing

Yeah, I do, because we can't just go around bombing everything. It's inhumane, and just ends up killing a bunch of innocent people. During the months after 9/11, and even up to a year or more later, people kept on anticipating another attack. It doesn't matter how many bombs we have if we leave our guard open. Not only do we have to tighten security, but we have to track down the terrorist cells and eliminate them. By making Iraq an ally, we now have a foothold in the middle east from which to fight terrorism from.

Now that the war's almost over, we can focus more on problems closer to home.

As for residential terrorism, that doesn't happen very often, and when it does it's only a very small group at best. So don't go around saying that we need to get a grip on terrorism closer to home, because it's the foreign terrorists which pose a far greater threat.

[My Best Wishes]

I made a mistake, sorry Split, forgot the most recent terrorist attack.

Virginia Tech Masscare

Seung-Hui Cho kills 33 people, including himself, in the Virginia Tech massacre, the worst civilian shooting spree in United States history and the worst case of mass murder in the United States since 9/11. (Note: this may be commonly considered a general massacre and thus included in the List of massacres, but there had been several hints of Cho's attempt to kill, including a manifesto tape to NBC News describing his motives — an attempt to terrorize.

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 17 2008, 05:59 PM, said:

Yeah, I do, because we can't just go around bombing everything. It's inhumane, and just ends up killing a bunch of innocent people.

Yes. Because in the months after 9/11 before Afghanistan your nation didn't develop two entirely new bombs designed specifically for Afghanistan terrain.
Daisy Cutter
MOAB

[Toasty]

Again, watch, one person.

He didn't lead, nor was he a part of a larger group. He killed 33 people. The terrorists who were a part of the 9/11 attacks killed over 3,000.

National terrorism>>>>>residential terrorism. Don't be so foolish.

[My Best Wishes]

Toasty, it was one attack, and there's enough proof that it wasn't a Al-Qaeda to debate that it was.
Before you ask me what the proof is, go watch Loose Change. And yes I've read/seen the debunking stuff, and the popular mechanics or whatever they're called. I made up my mind after seeing both sides of the argument, like Michael Moore films.

And it was 33 people that died because of your **** sane gun laws.

“The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.”
Joseph Stalin

[Toasty]

So are you saying that it's worse to let one man die, than millions?

And our "**** sane" gun laws save more lives than they take. The origional reason for why the right to bear arms was put in place, was so that people could protect themselves if they needed to. Whether it was from a burglar, a tyranous government, or whatever.
Since Virginia tech, the gun laws have been strengthened, so no longer can a mentally-unsound person purchase a gun without proper authorization (or perhaps not even at all).

Loose Change is just a bunch of speculation put forth by a group of guys, none of which have a Ph. D in science or engineering. Even if Al-Qaeda wasn't behind the attacks, some other terrorist cell in the middle east was. For the umpteenth time, the United States Government did not attack the twin towers. And I don't say that just because that's what the government wants me to believe, but because it's absurd to think otherwise. Bush wouldn't orchestrate something like that just to take out Saddam, nor was it done to get oil (because unless you didn't notice, the United States hasn't recieved a drop of free or reduced-price oil since the beginning of the Iraq war).

And as for those two bombs that were designed, they were done so to reduce civilian casualties since our current weaponry created too much collateral damage. Not all bombs are designed to just "blow stuff up".

[Split Infinity]

Split Infinity, on Sep 16 2008, 01:27 PM, said:

The number of situations in which a civilian has successfully defended themselves with a firearm is negligable, compared to how many times they were killed for trying to gain the upper hand.

No, you're right Toasty. Guns are definitely the way to go. In fact, I bet if we had MORE guns in civilian hands, there'd be LESS shootings in your country.

[Eugine]

Well watch, I was never 'anti-America'/'pro-USA'. I actually think USA has lots of problems. (Foreign policy could use a bit more diplomacy, it should actually start tackling global warming, and sometimes its foreign policy creates blowback for eg)

I have a problem when you guys protray it as the big bad wolf which is far from true, so this is why I am defending the USA =)

[My Best Wishes]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 17 2008, 06:31 PM, said:

So are you saying that it's worse to let one man die, than millions?

And our "**** sane" gun laws save more lives than they take. The origional reason for why the right to bear arms was put in place, was so that people could protect themselves if they needed to. Whether it was from a burglar, a tyranous government, or whatever.
Since Virginia tech, the gun laws have been strengthened, so no longer can a mentally-unsound person purchase a gun without proper authorization (or perhaps not even at all).

No I didn't say that, **** me Toasty you are keen on putting words in other peoples mouth.
Stalin said it first of all, I quoted it to show how people rate the worth of someones life. If a fireman dies in a fire then it's a national tragedy, he gets a parade and crap, where say X amount of people die in a war and its not nearly as depressing or tragic according to the media.

"The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege

- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century

- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chigago were approaching the hightest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)

If Osama bin Laden had had more sense, instead of launching a terrorist attack, he would simply have provided financial backing to the NRA."

Source

[Golden Legacy]

In response to earlier (that if Obama is a socialist, then the Bush regime is fascist)
http://www.oldameric...y.org/14pts.htm


Also, if people have been paying attention to the economy, major restructurings and failures are taking place. The US government has just bailed out AIG, the largest private insurance firm in the world, with an $85 billion takeover and an 80% stake in the company. Fannie Mae and Freddie Max - the two largest mortgage companies in the USA, with combined assets of $6 trillion and over half the market - were taken over by the federal government as they were about to collapse.

What say you on all this?

watch, on Sep 17 2008, 07:10 AM, said:

No I didn't say that, **** me Toasty you are keen on putting words in other peoples mouth.
Stalin said it first of all, I quoted it to show how people rate the worth of someones life. If a fireman dies in a fire then it's a national tragedy, he gets a parade and crap, where say X amount of people die in a war and its not nearly as depressing or tragic according to the media.

"The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege

- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century

- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chigago were approaching the hightest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)

If Osama bin Laden had had more sense, instead of launching a terrorist attack, he would simply have provided financial backing to the NRA."

Source

BRILLIANT.

[Aquamarine]

*coughcoughexceptitwasn'tevenhimwhodestroyedthetowerscoughcough*

[Gio]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 17 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

In response to earlier (that if Obama is a socialist, then the Bush regime is fascist)
http://www.oldameric...y.org/14pts.htm
Also, if people have been paying attention to the economy, major restructurings and failures are taking place. The US government has just bailed out AIG, the largest private insurance firm in the world, with an $85 billion takeover and an 80% stake in the company. Fannie Mae and Freddie Max - the two largest mortgage companies in the USA, with combined assets of $6 trillion and over half the market - were taken over by the federal government as they were about to collapse.

What say you on all this?

I got mixed feelings about this. I mean I hate the fact that taxpayers money is being use, I also hate the idea of the government bailing out a private company, but on the other hand I understand why they have done so. I find Freddie and Fannie to be the most interesting part of the whole thing but I would rather let you guys try and figure out why.

[Eugine]

Well GL, after 8 years of being the President, I'm sure you can find an example to prove your case for or against Bush with anything.

Regarding the article (and not the links they provide... That will take ages)
1) It's acting like America suddenly became patriotic, and the flags were only used during Bush Presidency. America always was a patriotic country.
2) Those people are insane. America is fighting the war on terror, and if you guys want to give terrorists who were caught killing US soldiers the same rights as a US citizen so be it.
3) What does that have to do with George Bush lol? Those people are conservative commentators. Do you want them to sympatize with liberals? lol...
4) OMFG. They are insane. The US is currently fighting a WAR. Obviously the military will need more funding than during a peace time.
5) Wait, so this article is telling us that women rights were degraded during the Bush years? Cuz honestly, I see no evidence of Bush specifically targetting women. It was the norm before Bush... Plus, there's a female Secretary of State...
6) Do they point out that Fox and probably CNN are the ONLY media which supports the current President?
7) Fighting the war on terror here...
8) What President was an atheist?

You know what, that article is ridiculous. Most of that article doesn't even say WHY BUSH is a fascist, but offers a wider view on why America is fascst, which is false btw lol.

[Saturos S.]

Eugine, on Sep 18 2008, 05:22 AM, said:

Well GL, after 8 years of being the President, I'm sure you can find an example to prove your case for or against Bush with anything.

Regarding the article (and not the links they provide... That will take ages)
1) It's acting like America suddenly became patriotic, and the flags were only used during Bush Presidency. America always was a patriotic country.
2) Those people are insane. America is fighting the war on terror, and if you guys want to give terrorists who were caught killing US soldiers the same rights as a US citizen so be it.

Human rights are the same no matter what race, history or medical background you have. If that makes them insane, you're a rascist.

3) What does that have to do with George Bush lol? Those people are conservative commentators. Do you want them to sympatize with liberals? lol...
4) OMFG. They are insane. The US is currently fighting a WAR. Obviously the military will need more funding than during a peace time.

The war was pretty inefficient, therefore a lot of wasted money. Just give it to your investmentbanks, they need it more.

5) Wait, so this article is telling us that women rights were degraded during the Bush years? Cuz honestly, I see no evidence of Bush specifically targetting women. It was the norm before Bush... Plus, there's a female Secretary of State...
6) Do they point out that Fox and probably CNN are the ONLY media which supports the current President?
7) Fighting the war on terror here...

More inefficient fighting. yay?

8) What President was an atheist?

No idea, but I find it worrying that every single president has to be christian to be picked. Presidents should be picked for policies, not religion or race.

You know what, that article is ridiculous. Most of that article doesn't even say WHY BUSH is a fascist, but offers a wider view on why America is fascst, which is false btw lol.

Though the article itself is quite disagreeable. You'll always find a thing to label a country as fascist. The only fascistic side of the Nazis that I find similar to the Americans is the patriotism. That singing to the flag, American flag nearly being worshipped, kind of happened there as well. ... North Korea too by the way, China too... but if those are the countries America wants to be compared with, so be it.

[Toasty]

Saturous, THEY ARE TERRORISTS. It doesn't matter what nationality they are. Even if they're white male Americans. If they're terrorists, they HAVE NO RIGHTS. I completely fail to see how Eugine was being racist in any way with that comment.

Like someone said earlier, the war in Iraq was for a good purpouse. Just because it was handled [very] inneficiently, doesn't mean it wasn't worth it. But it sure as hell could've been handled better.

And not all Presidents have been Chrsitian. Though obviously, since more than three quarters of Americans claim to be Christian (51% Protestant, 28% Catholic), it's far more likely for a president to be Christian than any other denomination.



As far as gun control goes, putting guns in the hands of responsble civilians will offer more security and safety. The gun control laws right now aren't perfect, which is why the statistics are what they are. some people are careless with their guns and leave them loaded in places easily acessable to young children who then mess around with said gun and hurt themselves (or others).

What the law should be, is for all civillian arms to be locked in personal safes/cabinets and away from children. Any civilian owning a gun must take a safety refresher course and a psychological exam once (maybe even twice) every year. Any violation of either one of these will be punishable by law.

If that were enforced, and people followed it, those statistics would be far less severe.

It's important to keep guns in the hands of responsible civilians for safety purpouses. The main problem we have with gun control right now is keeping them out of irresponsible civilians.

Golden Legacy, on Sep 17 2008, 11:21 AM, said:

In response to earlier (that if Obama is a socialist, then the Bush regime is fascist)
http://www.oldameric...y.org/14pts.htm


Also, if people have been paying attention to the economy, major restructurings and failures are taking place. The US government has just bailed out AIG, the largest private insurance firm in the world, with an $85 billion takeover and an 80% stake in the company. Fannie Mae and Freddie Max - the two largest mortgage companies in the USA, with combined assets of $6 trillion and over half the market - were taken over by the federal government as they were about to collapse.

What say you on all this?

What say I? If it was possible to not bail AIG out and not end up with a ginourmous fallout, I would be against spending our tax money on it. I wish we didn't have to bail them out. Unfortunately, the consequences of letting them be were too grate. Though now, the government has a fair amount of control over AIG, which in effect, provides a platform for government-run insurance. Something I am against.

As for the fascist thing:

1) If that were true, every president in history would be facist, because every American President in history, when seen in public or on the news, almost always has an American flag in his general vicinity. And ever time a president is speaking on a podium, Liberal or Conservative, the presidential crest (or whatever you want to call it, can't remember it's official name) is on that podium.

2) Terrorists lost their human rights when they chose to terrorize and kill people. As for the "wrongfully imprisoned," like I said, those people were not[/i just pulled off the streets at random. They are where they are because of something they did. Now as for whether their actions justify their punishment or not, that is up for speculation.

3) Obama identifies big oil as an enemy responsible for global warming. He rallies global warming activists by identifying big oil as a common enemy. He's also against the war in Iraq, and identifies pretty much anyone who supports the war as an enemy, unifying those who are against the war against a "common enemy"

4) I fail to see how promoting the good of our military is a bad thing. As for the domestic agendas being neglected, if that were true, the government wouldn't have even bothered heloing out the victims of Gustav, and the whole Katrina incident would have turned out even worse than it did.

5) Being anti-gay is not sexism (most of the time, it's even referring to two men as a couple, not two women). Having a female as the head of congress is not sexism. Having a femal vice president is not sexism. Having a female actually running for president is not sexism.

6) If anyone has control over the mass media, it's the Liberals. Most of Hollywood, who is in fact responsible for almost all movie productions everywhere, is vastly left-winged. CNN even used to be known as the "Clinton News Network". The only slightly right-winged news or media I can think of, is maybe Fox News, The Dark Knight, and maybe even the Narnia movies. The latter even being more religious than pollitical.

7) To think that having a secure nation is unimportant, is to think that it's perfectly safe to leave your car, house, and workplace unlocked and unprotected at all times. National Security is very important. If we were more "nationally secure" before the 9/11 attacks, then they probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. We don't live in a perfect world, so unfortunately, we need ot put locks and alarm systems on things we deem valuable to use so that we can protect them.
If you don't mind being invaded by illegal aliens and terrorists who'll ultimately destroy America, then fine by me. But I personally can't stand for that.

8) Seperation of church and state is there to seperate the State from the Church. Not vise versa. Having the morals that are often promoted in many religions being instilled in not only citiczens, but government officials, is far from being a bad thing. They don't have to follow any particular religion if they don't want to, but if everyone followed at least most of the ten commandments found in the Christian bible (and the Jewish and Islamic bible aswell), we'd have a far less corrupted government, and a far better standard of living.
Forcing a religion upon the populous is wrong, as having a free will is very important. But there is nothing wrong with promoting religious ideals such as the Ten Commandments.

9) So probing for contracting fraud in Iraq and Afghanistan is a bad thing? If we have companies that are over there helping to rebuild Iraq (which I assume we do because of the second link in this section), then wouldn't it be a good thing that we made sure they weren't frauding the Iraqi people? That actually sounds more like protectin the interests of the Iraqi civilians rather than the corporations themselves.
In general, though, corporations are being cracked down upon for supporting illegal aliens as workers. That isn't protecting the coporations, that's protecting out National Security, and to an extent, even the illegal aliens (who often experience poor living and working conditions here in the US).

10) Notice how all of these links here (except for one) are about preventing Unions from using their money on pollitical agendas. I personally support Unions to an extent, because they offer benefits, but also problems. The unions are there to protect the workers rights. But sometimes, the unions try to exploit those rights. The restriction of Unions using their money for pollitics is to prevent them from funding any party in general. Whether it's Conservative, Liberal, or (god help us) special interest groups. This in effect prevents any campaign from overly benefitting from Unions by supporting them. The workers themselves should still be able to send money the party they support, as is a right as an American civilian. But the Unions, who own a lot of funds, could become cash-cows for pollitical parties. This is to keep either side of the isle from exploiting the unions for pollitical purpouses.

11) Our educational system is pretty poor right now. I can't really come up with much to refute this, other than the "no child left behind" act was intended to promote education among kids by increasing their chances of passing a grade level. According to this section, that's the oposite of fascism.

12) Yet for some reason, when our border patrolsmen try to stop illegal aliens from bringing drugs into the country, the border patrolsmen get thrown in jail. A big "WTF" is in order there. There may come a point where the police can have too much power, but if the police themsleves are getting thrown in jail for upholding the law, I don't think we have a problem with them being too powerful.

13) Corruption, huh? How about Clinton and his numerous impeachments? What About Nanci Pilosi telling the Democrats in Congress behind closed doors to lie about their stances on off-shore drilling if it meant they could get re-elected into office? Or what about Chrsitine Gregoire, the Washington State Governor, who demanded three recounts because she lost the vote the first two times? Only winning after votes which shouldn't have even been counted (they were either illigitimate or too late to have been considered applicable) were added to the totall? Even then, she didn't win the election by much.
If you want to talk about corruption, even if it's only by a little, you'll likely find more of it on the left side of the isle.

14) I think I can pretty much quote my point about Governor Gregoire for this one.


In general, facism gives the government more power than the people. Specifically speaking, it puts more power in a select [i]group of people. Liberals may not be fascist, but most of the bills they support give the government more power (i.e. distribution of wealth, government run health care, etc.).

So GL, before you claim that Bush is a fascist, take a closer look at your own party first.

[Aquamarine]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 18 2008, 11:09 AM, said:

Saturous, THEY ARE TERRORISTS. It doesn't matter what nationality they are. Even if they're white male Americans. If they're terrorists, they HAVE NO RIGHTS. I completely fail to see how Eugine was being racist in any way with that comment.

Really? Excellent, because I've always considered America, its government and soldiers to be the worst terrorists known to man. By worst I mean most dangerous and most powerful. I've been using the word 'terrorist' for Americans since I was like, 12 years old.

Great, so if I ever see an American I'll just beat him up so badly he barely survives. Nobody will be able to do anything to me because he's a terrorist and he has no rights.

[Eugine]

Wait, I never said they should not have human rights... They should... I simply said they should not be given the same rights as a US citizen.

[Split Infinity]

I think the point Toast and Eug are trying to make is that Iraqi terrorists should be punished for opening fire on Americans, not that they should be treated as an inferior race or anything.

[Aquamarine]

Wow... That would mean that Americas punishment would be eternal and unimaginable.

[Eugine]

Exactly.
Look at this -

A terrorist is caught in Afghanistan firing against soldiers. Or even more important in a raid a high operative of Al Qaeda is caught. He is transported to Cuba...

Should he be given a lawyer? Should he be given the same rights as a US citizen who were caught robbing a store? Should he be given Habeas corpus? I honestly do not think so...

[Golden Legacy]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issue...t/detention.htm
http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/3700975.stm

Absolutely sickening.
And before the fundamentalists start arguing back, we're talking about people who are taken as prisoners with absolutely no charge, having committed no acts of violence, and are citizens that have never partaken in war - ranging from men, women, the elderly, right down to 8 year old children.

[Eugine]

The fist article is too long ^.^
Regarding the BBC News article... Didn't Bush condemn the soldiers? I doubt those soldiers were following official US army policy. Terrible though yeah, but I think they were reprimanded.

Golden Legacy, on Sep 17 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Max - the two largest mortgage companies in the USA, with combined assets of $6 trillion and over half the market - were taken over by the federal government as they were about to collapse.

What say you on all this?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Weblogs/TWSF...FPView.asp#8735
^___^

If you have an article to rebute mines link away. Obama may well have some answering to do if the liberal press finally start asking him some hard questions, after all, he may be directly involved in this mess... I'm telling yah, Obama is a dirty politician wrapped in fake change.
He's still awesome when he uses a teleprompter and read other people's speeches though =)

[Golden Legacy]

Eugine, on Sep 18 2008, 10:44 AM, said:

The fist article is too long ^.^
Regarding the BBC News article... Didn't Bush condemn the soldiers? I doubt those soldiers were following official US army policy. Terrible though yeah, but I think they were reprimanded.

Right. If it were any other nation in the world doing that to our innocent civilians, you wouldn't be talking.

And have some decency and at least skim the source, won't you? It's very telling of the situation, much more than the BBC article I provided.

To requote what I posted:

Quote

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issue...t/detention.htm
http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/3700975.stm

Absolutely sickening.
And before the fundamentalists start arguing back, we're talking about people who are taken as prisoners with absolutely no charge, having committed no acts of violence, and are citizens that have never partaken in war - ranging from men, women, the elderly, right down to 8 year old children.

And to Eugine's post:

Quote

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Weblogs/TWSF...FPView.asp#8735
^___^

If you have an article to rebute mines link away. Obama may well have some answering to do if the liberal press finally start asking him some hard questions, after all, he may be directly involved in this mess... I'm telling yah, Obama is a dirty politician wrapped in fake change.
He's still awesome when he uses a teleprompter and read other people's speeches though =)

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/09/15/1...ivatives/print/
[Phil Gramm, look him up, McCain relies on the guy as his chief economic advisor]

http://news.muckety.com/2008/09/10/obama-a...reddie-mac/4941
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archiv...ie_freddie.html

And seriously, those smileys get annoying after a while.

[Gio]

Eugine, on Sep 18 2008, 09:44 AM, said:

The fist article is too long ^.^
Regarding the BBC News article... Didn't Bush condemn the soldiers? I doubt those soldiers were following official US army policy. Terrible though yeah, but I think they were reprimanded.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Weblogs/TWSF...FPView.asp#8735
^___^

If you have an article to rebute mines link away. Obama may well have some answering to do if the liberal press finally start asking him some hard questions, after all, he may be directly involved in this mess... I'm telling yah, Obama is a dirty politician wrapped in fake change.
He's still awesome when he uses a teleprompter and read other people's speeches though =)

Hey you figured out why I think freddie and fannie are interesting stories. Way to go : )

edit: And yes we all know that both McCain and Obama were connected, but Obama raised the 2nd most money, and only in 3 to 4 years.

[Golden Legacy]

Missed this post:

Aquamarine, on Sep 18 2008, 08:34 AM, said:

Really? Excellent, because I've always considered America, its government and soldiers to be the worst terrorists known to man. By worst I mean most dangerous and most powerful. I've been using the word 'terrorist' for Americans since I was like, 12 years old.

In my eyes, Bush ought to be tried and executed as a war criminal and terrorist, I see no difference between Bin Laden and him.

[Eugine]

Yeah GL, sure both are connected in some way, but Obama is faaar more connected and more involved in this mess.
The difference being Obama is directly connected while McCain knows people who are connected...

And lol, GL Bush isn't that bad...

[Golden Legacy]

Eugine, on Sep 18 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

Yeah GL, sure both are connected in some way, but Obama is faaar more connected and more involved in this mess.
The difference being Obama is directly connected while McCain knows people who are connected...

Nope.

http://www.propublica.org/article/fannie-f...ama-mccain-910/
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/09/...IE_GRAPHIC.html

McCain has received more for the 2008 campaign alone. Obama may have received money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac since he entered the senate, but McCain has received this funding for this single year ALONE.

(and even then, it's still more than Obama - 169,000 to his 122,000).


At any rate, at least what the economic chaos has done is shift the focus back on the real issues at hand.

EDIT: read this.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...e_meltdown.html

Skim through the first part and start reading from "The Bush economy".

[Eugine]

So, it's wrong for people in Fannie and Freddie to donate to either campaign individually? The difference with the Obama situation is that he got more donations from the company itself while McCain simply got from individuals in the company.

And you know, that second article actually proves my point to be honest. Obama is now protraying himself as the prosecutor of greedy CEOs and top executives, and criticising McCain anyway possible, but when you look at his record the man appointed the former CEO of the same company he is criticising to his VP selection team. Doesnt that create some conflict of interest? He just recognised that Jim Johnson is greedy? He sure didn't think so a while ago.

[Golden Legacy]

To my knowledge, there is a legal limit on how much an individual can contribute to a campaign - that is 2300 USD. The way corporations can donate in such large amounts is that the money can be considered "divided up" on behalf of all the employees, so that on average none of the individuals pass the limit, but the company on a whole can bring it forward.

That's how PACs and special interest groups work.

At any rate, I'm not denying that Obama has links. Same as McCain (again, I point you to Phil Gramm, involved with Enron, both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and was McCain's chief economic advisor - until Gramm resigned when he called the current state of the economy a "mental recession" and that the USA had become a "nation of whiners").

Besides, it's only natural for the campaigns to be vocal about current affairs. Both McCain and Obama are siezing the opportunity to highlight their own economic philosophies. It's a shift of momentum - and a welcome one - from the conventions and the Palin craziness, at least, so we should all be grateful for that.

At any rate, good Lord, this deserves to be in the other topic. Can we go back to the America bashing now?

[Eugine]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 18 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

At any rate, good Lord, this deserves to be in the other topic. Can we go back to the America bashing now?

hahaha.

I do think America needs to be more diplomatic. And Bush sure needs to do something about this economic problem. This problem destroyed the Russian stock market...

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Sep 18 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

In my eyes, Bush ought to be tried and executed as a war criminal and terrorist, I see no difference between Bin Laden and him.

That's because you're neo-liberal.

And Aqua, I'd really like to meet you in person some day.

[My Best Wishes]

I'd like to meet Aqua, guy seems to have some game, be awesome to club with him.

As for the Terrorists argument.
So pretty much, you INVADE THEIR COUNTRY, then kill and rape the people (some soldiers not all, don't twist my words) then when the population tries to resist it, you call them terrorists, deport them, and try them according to your laws.
Well I see nothing wrong with it. :)

[Aquamarine]

Ashley Tisdale, on Sep 19 2008, 05:51 AM, said:

And Aqua, I'd really like to meet you in person some day.

Right back at you.

watch, on Sep 19 2008, 08:20 AM, said:

I'd like to meet Aqua, guy seems to have some game, be awesome to club with him.

Again, right back at ya. =)

For different reasons, obviously.

[Someone Else]

Aquamarine, on Sep 18 2008, 05:34 AM, said:

Great, so if I ever see an American I'll just beat him up so badly he barely survives. Nobody will be able to do anything to me because he's a terrorist and he has no rights.

Even me? =[

[Golden Legacy]

watch, on Sep 19 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

As for the Terrorists argument.
So pretty much, you INVADE THEIR COUNTRY, then kill and rape the people (some soldiers not all, don't twist my words) then when the population tries to resist it, you call them terrorists, deport them, and try them according to your laws.
Well I see nothing wrong with it. :)

Simply and brilliantly well said.

[Aquamarine]

Wind Dude, on Sep 19 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

Even me? =[

Hey, I never said I would beat up every single American I saw. I definitely wouldn't do that to GL, if anything I would buy him a drink.

...

But yeah, even you. :)

[Toasty]

watch, on Sep 18 2008, 11:20 PM, said:

I'd like to meet Aqua, guy seems to have some game, be awesome to club with him.

As for the Terrorists argument.
So pretty much, you INVADE THEIR COUNTRY, then kill and rape the people (some soldiers not all, don't twist my words) then when the population tries to resist it, you call them terrorists, deport them, and try them according to your laws.
Well I see nothing wrong with it. :)

I wouldn't care if the soldiers who were raping people etc. were attacked. But the insurgents were also attacking the good soldiers aswell.

If there's a soldier who's committing crimes over there, chances are he'll get sent back to the US and put on trial, and then punished. It's like schoolyard fights. The kid who started it may deserve getting beat up, but even the kid who's defending himself will get suspended if he partakes in the fight. Either way, the kid who started would get punished.
If the Iraqi people let the US government punish their own soldiers, there would be no nedd to fight any insurgents, as there wouldn't be any insurgents.

That said, bad US soldiers are by far not the sole reason for why Iraqi's become insurgents. There's very many of them who don't want a democracy, and would rather have another dictatorship. Not because things were so good under Saddam, but because if the group they're a part of (the insurgents don't all work together by the way, they have groups) succeeds, they'll probably end up getting a high spot in the government, and gain power that they would probably end up abusing to the dismay of many Iraqi citiczens.

[Caael]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1089/1225317352499om7.jpg