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Homosexuality & Gay Marriage

#1   Caael 

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    Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:05 PM

    I dont understand why people are against it. I mean, if "God" gave us free will to do what we like, he must have known people would become gay at some point, and he wouldn't have made it possible if he was fine with it. If "God" deemed it wrong, then he shouldn't allow people to become gay.

    tl;dr- gays exist, "god" dont care

    Discuss.

    #2   Ironsight 

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      Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:07 PM

      I don't believe in God. I believe in errors of the mind. Which is what homosexuality is. Errors should not be encouraged.

      #3   Caael 

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        Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:08 PM

        I dont either, but I know somebody somewhere will bring up the god argument.

        #4   Split Infinity 

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          Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:17 PM

          Can only imagine who that will be...

          I don't have any moral issues with it, marriage is no longer considered a Christian ceremony these days, at least not exclusively. Vegas alone has demonstrated that.

          #5   Legolastom 

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            Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:27 PM

            View PostCaael, on Apr 9 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

            I dont understand why people are against it. I mean, if "God" gave us free will to do what we like, he must have known people would become gay at some point, and he wouldn't have made it possible if he was fine with it. If "God" deemed it wrong, then he shouldn't allow people to become gay.

            tl;dr- gays exist, "god" dont care

            Discuss.


            Well not even going to go into how flawed that view is of God but whatever.

            What I don't like about how Christians view gays is that a lot of American Christians are fundamentalists and believe every word of the Bible is the word of God and cannot seem to understand that it was written by man and has the flaws of man in it, it is also likely that those who wrote it put their own views into it. I mean the Bible and God in it say "Do not judge lest you be judged" (Don't know direct quote) and also that God loves all his creation etc but yet some exerts hate on homosexuals and all logic and reason is thrown out the window so some ignorant people who don't even understand their own religion can start an angry mob.

            Not like I am religious myself I hate the idea of religion.

            #6   Golden Legacy 

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              Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:41 PM

              Though my politics are secular, I'm (personally) religious and part of the reason why I do accept homosexuality is for what you mentioned, that God is supposed to love all human beings equally. Why would he be opposed to something he created, human beings who are supposed to be in his image?

              On a practical note, I hate the concept that some people claim, that being gay, bisexual, or lesbian is a "choice". No one chooses to become a citizen with secondary rights and suffering from discrimination.

              #7   Someone Else 

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                Posted 08 April 2009 - 08:27 PM

                View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 8 2009, 06:41 PM, said:

                On a practical note, I hate the concept that some people claim, that being gay, bisexual, or lesbian is a "choice". No one chooses to become a citizen with secondary rights and suffering from discrimination.

                Holy crap, quoted for truth. Run for president.

                #8   Toasty 

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                  Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:05 PM

                  View PostCaael, on Apr 8 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

                  I dont understand why people are against it. I mean, if "God" gave us free will to do what we like, he must have known people would become gay at some point, and he wouldn't have made it possible if he was fine with it. If "God" deemed it wrong, then he shouldn't allow people to become gay.

                  tl;dr- gays exist, "god" dont care

                  Discuss.



                  "God" said no because the whole idea of sex was not for enjoyment, but for producing babies. And since gay couples can't physically bear children, then they shouldn't marry.

                  And don't tell me that they can just marry and not have sex because we all know they'll be banging each other as soon as they go on their honeymoon.


                  And the whole point of having a free will is not to just allow us to do as we please without consequence, it's to allow us to choose for ourselves whether to do right or wrong.


                  I could go into an ass-load more detail, but this is about gay marriage so I'll leave it at that.


                  [EDIT] And GL, Christianity doesn't teach people to hate others gay or otherwise. What they do preach, is to spread the word/etc. and to not be gay yourself. God doesn't hate gays, and neither do I. I just don't approve of their decision.

                  #9   Split Infinity 

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                    Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:06 PM

                    View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 9 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

                    On a practical note, I hate the concept that some people claim, that being gay, bisexual, or lesbian is a "choice". No one chooses to become a citizen with secondary rights and suffering from discrimination.

                    I think it is, BUT... to an extent.

                    When you live in a stigma-free society (like ours is slowly becoming) you're less likely to mentally suppress the idea of being attracted to someone of the same gender, so that mental option is more likely to remain open. It's why we've had this sudden wave of people coming out in the last decades, and why it was such a rare case until now.

                    #10   Legolastom 

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                      Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:10 PM

                      And would you say being Gay is wrong Toasty? Why is that? Because homosexuals kill people? Or just because that nifty little book of yours said so.

                      #11   Split Infinity 

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                        Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:11 PM

                        View PostToasty, on Apr 9 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

                        And don't tell me that they can just marry and not have sex because we all know they'll be banging each other as soon as they go on their honeymoon.

                        Plenty of straight couples abstain, no reason 'they' can't.

                        #12   Ironsight 

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                          Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:26 PM

                          View PostLegolastom, on Apr 8 2009, 10:10 PM, said:

                          And would you say being Gay is wrong Toasty? Why is that? Because homosexuals kill people? Or just because that nifty little book of yours said so.

                          ...didn't he just explain why he thought it was wrong?

                          #13   Golden Legacy 

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                            Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:30 PM

                            View PostToasty, on Apr 9 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

                            "God" said no because the whole idea of sex was not for enjoyment, but for producing babies. And since gay couples can't physically bear children, then they shouldn't marry.

                            And don't tell me that they can just marry and not have sex because we all know they'll be banging each other as soon as they go on their honeymoon.
                            And the whole point of having a free will is not to just allow us to do as we please without consequence, it's to allow us to choose for ourselves whether to do right or wrong.
                            I could go into an ass-load more detail, but this is about gay marriage so I'll leave it at that.
                            [EDIT] And GL, Christianity doesn't teach people to hate others gay or otherwise. What they do preach, is to spread the word/etc. and to not be gay yourself. God doesn't hate gays, and neither do I. I just don't approve of their decision.

                            Toasty, this is about both homosexuality and gay marriage, both of them are relevant.

                            And yes Toasty, I am aware of what Christianity preaches, myself being a follower of the Abrahamic faiths. Unfortunately, many people who are do try to spread hatred against them, or teaching (preaching?) that they are inherently 'disgusting' or 'wrong'.

                            View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 9 2009, 01:06 AM, said:

                            I think it is, BUT... to an extent.

                            When you live in a stigma-free society (like ours is slowly becoming) you're less likely to mentally suppress the idea of being attracted to someone of the same gender, so that mental option is more likely to remain open. It's why we've had this sudden wave of people coming out in the last decades, and why it was such a rare case until now.

                            This is a legitimate observation. I think your point deals more with people revealing themselves to be gay - which has increased in recent times - as opposed to homosexuality flat out being a modern phenomenon, which it is not (having been noted for millennia).


                            EDIT: And yes Legolastom, you are being a little rash in attacking the Bible. We should argue about the views people have, regardless of where they come from.

                            #14   Ironsight 

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                              Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:33 PM

                              View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 8 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

                              I think it is, BUT... to an extent.

                              When you live in a stigma-free society (like ours is slowly becoming) you're less likely to mentally suppress the idea of being attracted to someone of the same gender, so that mental option is more likely to remain open. It's why we've had this sudden wave of people coming out in the last decades, and why it was such a rare case until now.

                              People are coming out of the closet like it's a ****ing fad now.

                              EDIT: In fact, given my experience with the people at my school, I'm pretty sure homosexuality IS a fad to most of them.

                              #15   Toasty 

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                                Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:35 PM

                                View PostLegolastom, on Apr 8 2009, 10:10 PM, said:

                                And would you say being Gay is wrong Toasty? Why is that? Because homosexuals kill people? Or just because that nifty little book of yours said so.



                                Because man+man=/= babies. If you couldn't tell that from my post, then go get some reading glasses.


                                View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 8 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

                                Toasty, this is about both homosexuality and gay marriage, both of them are relevant.

                                And yes Toasty, I am aware of what Christianity preaches, myself being a follower of the Abrahamic faiths. Unfortunately, many people who are do try to spread hatred against them, or teaching (preaching?) that they are inherently 'disgusting' or 'wrong'.


                                Well I can't speak for Islam since I've never even been to a Masque (sp?), but I have yet to physically go to a church and hear gay hate messages being preached.

                                That's not to say that no Christian church does it, but I don't consider any that do to be real churches.

                                To be frank, I don't consider any church that spreads hatred about anything (besides the devil and whatnot) to be a christian church.


                                View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 8 2009, 10:11 PM, said:

                                Plenty of straight religious couples abstain, no reason 'they' can't.


                                Seeing as most religions are anti-gay, I can't imagine that a significant number of gays are religious. To add on to that, the number of non-religious people who abstain are very few in number.

                                You do the math.

                                #16   Split Infinity 

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                                  Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:38 PM

                                  View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 9 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

                                  This is a legitimate observation. I think your point deals more with people revealing themselves to be gay - which has increased in recent times - as opposed to homosexuality flat out being a modern phenomenon, which it is not (having been noted for millennia).

                                  Well that's the crux of the debate, isn't it? We really can't know for sure whether it's because of their newfound tolerance, or whether people are allowing themselves to be converted, so to speak.

                                  #17   Legolastom 

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                                    Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:49 PM

                                    View PostToasty, on Apr 9 2009, 06:35 AM, said:

                                    Because man+man=/= babies. If you couldn't tell that from my post, then go get some reading glasses.


                                    So its because they cannot have babies? Well what about a man and woman that cannot have a child? Would they be "Wrong" as well?

                                    #18   Nosferatu 

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                                      Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:50 PM

                                      I'll just leave this post here for the sake of having posted here. I think my opinions are fairly obvious by now.

                                      #19   Toasty 

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                                        Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:55 PM

                                        View PostLegolastom, on Apr 8 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

                                        So its because they cannot have babies? Well what about a man and woman that cannot have a child? Would they be "Wrong" as well?


                                        No, numbnuts, Men and women are supposed to be able to produce babies. That's how things work. Being sterile is entirely different from man on man sex.

                                        #20   Split Infinity 

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                                          Posted 09 April 2009 - 12:04 AM

                                          This isn't about sex...

                                          #21   My Best Wishes 

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                                            Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:09 AM

                                            View PostLegolastom, on Apr 9 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

                                            And would you say being Gay is wrong Toasty? Why is that? Because homosexuals kill people? Or just because that nifty little book of yours said so.

                                            Because if we all rooted men then none of us would be here.

                                            View PostLegolastom, on Apr 9 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

                                            So its because they cannot have babies? Well what about a man and woman that cannot have a child? Would they be "Wrong" as well?

                                            From a Evolutionary point of view, yes.

                                            I love it how people are allowed to express their views on religion, but religious people aren't allowed to express their views.

                                            My opinions on the topic. I do not support Gay Marriage. I do not agree with Homosexuality. I do not believe that our sexual orientation is hard-wired into us. It annoys me that ******s want equal treatment and rights and all that but they intentionally alienate themselves from society.

                                            And yes, my religion plays a part in my opinions, albeit a small part. If you seek something to criticise try my cultural upbringing, my blue collar work environment or my evolutionary instincts for a change.

                                            On a side note, would a gay guy sleep with a girl that used to be a guy?

                                            #22   Split Infinity 

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                                              Posted 09 April 2009 - 03:34 AM

                                              Probably the same chance of a straight guy sleeping with a guy that used to be a girl.

                                              So why exactly do you see it as wrong for someone to be attracted to their own gender? I mean, from a moral standpoint. You say that people like that are intentionally alienating themselves, but wouldn't you do the same if you were straight in a gay society? No way I'd try and conform to that.

                                              #23   My Best Wishes 

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                                                Posted 09 April 2009 - 05:55 AM

                                                View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 9 2009, 07:34 PM, said:

                                                Probably the same chance of a straight guy sleeping with a guy that used to be a girl.

                                                So why exactly do you see it as wrong for someone to be attracted to their own gender? I mean, from a moral standpoint. You say that people like that are intentionally alienating themselves, but wouldn't you do the same if you were straight in a gay society? No way I'd try and conform to that.

                                                From a moral view? It isn't right, it goes against society, and while that necessarily doesn't make it bad, it also goes against our instincts, if everyone were gay then the human race would cease to exist.

                                                Alienating is a bad word but it's all I could think off. A guy at work said it well but I can't remember how he phrased it, basically the gist was they want to be equal and have the same rights as everyone, but they talk in a manner which is an instant indicator of their sexual preference.

                                                Also, anyone want to try and defend this?
                                                In November 2008, the United States Postal Service delivered envelopes containing white powder to two LDS temples and a Catholic fraternity, prompting a hazardous materials response and a federal investigation. Although the FBI stated that there was no evidence linking the incidents to Proposition 8 opponents, news sources speculated that these were hate crimes directed at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the Knights of Columbus for their support of Proposition 8. The white powder scares were reported on November 13, 2008 at Salt Lake City's Temple Square, the Los Angeles California Temple, and at a printing plant belonging to the Knights of Columbus (a Roman Catholic fraternity) in New Haven, Connecticut.[184][185]

                                                Ten LDS church buildings in the Sacramento region and seven houses of worship in Utah were vandalized in the ten days following the November 4 election, more than expected for an entire year. The FBI is investigating whether civil rights charges can be brought against the perpetrators and whether the acts of vandalism are hate crimes.[186] At a Mormon church in Orangevale, vandals spray painted in red letters on the front sign and sidewalk: "No on 8" and "No on Prop 8".[187] On November 11, a Book of Mormon was burned on the doorstep of a Latter-Day Saint chapel in Littleton, Colorado, which is being investigated as a hate crime.[188] It was reported that yard signs supporting Prop. 8 were rearranged into the shape of swastika at a Roman Catholic church in Riverside.[183]


                                                For people who want equality and tolerance, they have a funny way of showing it.

                                                #24   Split Infinity 

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                                                  Posted 09 April 2009 - 06:11 AM

                                                  View Postwatch, on Apr 9 2009, 09:55 PM, said:

                                                  From a moral view? It isn't right, it goes against society, and while that necessarily doesn't make it bad, it also goes against our instincts, if everyone were gay then the human race would cease to exist.

                                                  I just want to point out that's a kneejerk argument that's obviously not going to happen, and honestly, we already have too many god damn people on the planet to begin with. Less reproduction can only be a good thing.

                                                  View Postwatch, on Apr 9 2009, 09:55 PM, said:

                                                  Also, anyone want to try and defend this?
                                                  -copypasta-

                                                  For people who want equality and tolerance, they have a funny way of showing it.

                                                  You're starting to sound like the people who blamed all of Islam for 9/11.

                                                  #25   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                    Posted 09 April 2009 - 12:27 PM

                                                    Back

                                                    Forth

                                                    Repeat

                                                    Yeah, not getting into this again.

                                                    #26   Mo Cappy Ton 

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                                                      Posted 10 April 2009 - 07:31 PM

                                                      I don't believe it's any of my business whether someone is gay or not, so I stopped really caring. If two(or however many) people love eachother and want to get married then get married.

                                                      Sry if thats a run-on sent.

                                                      Can anyone explain what albiet/albeit means?

                                                      EDIT - this post is my first and I would like to dedicate it to SwedishFish.
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                                                      #27   Split Infinity 

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                                                        Posted 10 April 2009 - 07:37 PM

                                                        Wiktionary said:

                                                        Contraction of all be it (“‘even if it be so that’”).

                                                        albeit (plural albethey)

                                                        Despite its being; although.
                                                        He has a very good idea, albeit a strange one.


                                                        #28   Swedishfish 

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                                                          Posted 10 April 2009 - 07:47 PM

                                                          Myself, if the gay people wanna be gay, let them be gay, if they wanna be straight, let them be straight. Just because your a homophobe(sp?) doesn't mean you have to ban gay marriage.

                                                          #29   Ironsight 

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                                                            Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:27 PM

                                                            View PostSwedishfish, on Apr 10 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

                                                            Myself, if the gay people wanna be gay, let them be gay, if they wanna be straight, let them be straight. Just because your a homophobe(sp?) doesn't mean you have to ban gay marriage.

                                                            Since when did being against gay marriage make me homophobic?

                                                            #30   Golden Legacy 

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                                                              Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:16 PM

                                                              If gay marriage was allowed, would you stay up at night shaking with the knowledge that homosexual couples are being legitimately recognized as spouses?

                                                              #31   Ironsight 

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                                                                Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:33 PM

                                                                It was allowed in California for a while (before the people voted a second time that marriage was a man+woman thing), and during that time I don't remember staying up at night over it.

                                                                #32   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                  Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:40 PM

                                                                  I meant that rhetorical to segue into my next point - what difference would it make then? You ate, slept, went to school when gay marriage was allowed. You eat, sleep, and go to school now that it's banned. Either way, your life still goes on.

                                                                  #33   Toasty 

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                                                                    Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:42 PM

                                                                    So? It's about keeping a standard of morals.

                                                                    Some ass-hat liberal was spouting a bunch of nonsense earlier about how "there is no place for traditional morals in this day and age" or something like that.

                                                                    Basically, he says underage sex, vandalism, rage, discrimination, and uncalled for hatred are all acceptable.

                                                                    #34   Split Infinity 

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                                                                      Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:59 PM

                                                                      View PostToasty, on Apr 11 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

                                                                      So? It's about keeping a standard of morals.

                                                                      And this is where religion jumps into it. There's absolutely no reason that a person with gay-tolerant beliefs should feel morally unjustified towards the gay population.

                                                                      Murder, violence, discrimination; they're all universally condemned because they defy the basic model of human morality, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. How does being gay step outside of that model? It's not hurting anyone, it's just a simple exertion of free will. That extends to gay marriage.

                                                                      #35   My Best Wishes 

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                                                                        Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:15 AM

                                                                        View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 11 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

                                                                        If gay marriage was allowed, would you stay up at night shaking with the knowledge that homosexual couples are being legitimately recognised as spouses?

                                                                        Does it help you sleep at night knowing that gay people can get married?

                                                                        #36   Someone Else 

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                                                                          Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:26 AM

                                                                          View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 10 2009, 10:59 PM, said:

                                                                          Murder, violence, discrimination; they're all universally condemned because they defy the basic model of human morality, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. How does being gay step outside of that model? It's not hurting anyone, it's just a simple exertion of free will. That extends to gay marriage.

                                                                          Yeah, I was gonna say something like that.

                                                                          You all say that gay dudes getting married is immoral. But honestly, I think the real evil here is taking away basic human rights. Taking away their right to marry is discrimination, segregation, it's immoral.

                                                                          I had something else to say but I'm sleepy, so I forgot it... might post more later.

                                                                          #37   Toasty 

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                                                                            Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:52 AM

                                                                            To a religious person, it's immoral. To a non-religious person, it's not immoral.

                                                                            I already explained somewhere why religious people (at least christians), consider homosexuality to be immoral.

                                                                            #38   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                              Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:55 AM

                                                                              View PostToasty, on Apr 11 2009, 01:42 AM, said:

                                                                              So? It's about keeping a standard of morals.

                                                                              Some ass-hat liberal was spouting a bunch of nonsense earlier about how "there is no place for traditional morals in this day and age" or something like that.

                                                                              Basically, he says underage sex, vandalism, rage, discrimination, and uncalled for hatred are all acceptable.

                                                                              That's a bit of a huge step forward. You can't equate your dislike of 'liberalism' with automatic underage sex, vandalism, rage (lol), discrimination (?). I think what was being said is that morals and standards change over time - there was a time in history when a black person in chains would have been seen as perfectly acceptable, with little moral consequence.

                                                                              View Postwatch, on Apr 11 2009, 02:15 AM, said:

                                                                              Does it help you sleep at night knowing that gay people can get married?

                                                                              This is probably meant as a response to my rhetorical question to DS', so I apologize on that front. To answer though, it honestly wouldn't make a difference to me really. Granted, this is coming from someone who went to a very open school, where heterosexual couples and homosexual couples were both prominent.

                                                                              #39   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:11 AM

                                                                                I just find it bizarre that gay marriage could be illegal in any country; that's literally treating it as a criminal act, aka, a destructive action against society, which is a matter of opinion - something which shouldn't bias the lawmaking process. We should respect religious groups, yes, but that shouldn't give them precedence over the law if it detracts from the liberty of the non-religious population.

                                                                                Do it or don't, both groups should have that choice.

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                                                                                  Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:25 AM

                                                                                  View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 10 2009, 11:55 PM, said:

                                                                                  That's a bit of a huge step forward. You can't equate your dislike of 'liberalism' with automatic underage sex, vandalism, rage (lol), discrimination (?). I think what was being said is that morals and standards change over time - there was a time in history when a black person in chains would have been seen as perfectly acceptable, with little moral consequence.



                                                                                  I'm not. The guy really said that, and he also happens to be a liberal. He honestly thinks that we don't need to teach our kids how to get along with others, or how to respect their elders, or any of that.

                                                                                  I suppose he could have meant something more along the lines of what you described, but it didn't seem like it to me from the tone and context he used it in.

                                                                                  #41   Envy 

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                                                                                    Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:29 PM

                                                                                    Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible anymore that many other things that people do all of the time.

                                                                                    I'm sick of hearing "It's against my morals." First of all, there's a separation of church and state, and second of all, well what I said above.

                                                                                    I'm honestly convinced that many of these people who are "morally" against homosexuality, are just using the Bible to make their homophobia look justified. And it needs to stop, right now.

                                                                                    #42   Legolastom 

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                                                                                      Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:31 PM

                                                                                      Right now. Full stop.

                                                                                      #43   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                        Posted 11 April 2009 - 02:03 PM

                                                                                        View PostEnvy, on Apr 11 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

                                                                                        Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible anymore that many other things that people do all of the time.

                                                                                        I'm sick of hearing "It's against my morals." First of all, there's a separation of church and state, and second of all, well what I said above.

                                                                                        I'm honestly convinced that many of these people who are "morally" against homosexuality, are just using the Bible to make their homophobia look justified. And it needs to stop, right now.


                                                                                        Lolwut? They changed the bible?

                                                                                        I know I'm pretty homophobic, I'm not proud of it, but yeah, gay people make me uncomfortable. But still, I haven't heard any good reason why gay marriage should be forbidden. It's perfectly justified to love another human, regardless what sex. they are.

                                                                                        But this is turning in a roundabout argument.

                                                                                        #44   Envy 

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                                                                                          Posted 11 April 2009 - 02:07 PM

                                                                                          View PostSir Walsingham, on Apr 11 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

                                                                                          Lolwut? They changed the bible?


                                                                                          I never said that anywhere in my post. I meant that people are over emphasizing the homosexuality verses/whatever in the Bible.

                                                                                          #45   Legolastom 

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                                                                                            Posted 11 April 2009 - 07:12 PM

                                                                                            You should change "That" to "Than" in your previous post Envy.

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                                                                                              Posted 11 April 2009 - 07:39 PM

                                                                                              View PostSomeone Else, on Apr 10 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

                                                                                              Yeah, I was gonna say something like that.

                                                                                              You all say that gay dudes getting married is immoral. But honestly, I think the real evil here is taking away basic human rights. Taking away their right to marry is discrimination, segregation, it's immoral.

                                                                                              I had something else to say but I'm sleepy, so I forgot it... might post more later.

                                                                                              Bestiality doesn't hurt anyone, and it's not evil. Who are we to judge what a person can love, right?

                                                                                              #47   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:06 PM

                                                                                                http://www.logicalfa...uity/straw-man/

                                                                                                #48   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                  Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:19 PM

                                                                                                  View PostRegret, on Apr 12 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

                                                                                                  Bestiality doesn't hurt anyone, and it's not evil. Who are we to judge what a person can love, right?


                                                                                                  I think the law is there so that animal diseases don't get spread around humans and form more dangerous ones and also so that Animals don't get raped, because Animals cant report a rape. And if Animals had the intelligence of humans then it wouldn't be immoral to have sex with one, might be dangerous and impractical however.

                                                                                                  #49   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                    Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:24 PM

                                                                                                    View PostLegolastom, on Apr 11 2009, 07:19 PM, said:

                                                                                                    I think the law is there so that animal diseases don't get spread around humans and form more dangerous ones and also so that Animals don't get raped, because Animals cant report a rape. And if Animals had the intelligence of humans then it wouldn't be immoral to have sex with one, might be dangerous and impractical however.

                                                                                                    Gay sex spreads AIDS.

                                                                                                    #50   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                      Posted 11 April 2009 - 09:20 PM

                                                                                                      Name a sex which doesn't. XP

                                                                                                      #51   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                        Posted 11 April 2009 - 09:22 PM

                                                                                                        Ok, gay sex has a greater chance of spreading AIDS.

                                                                                                        #52   My Best Wishes 

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                                                                                                          Posted 11 April 2009 - 09:27 PM

                                                                                                          View PostEnvy, on Apr 12 2009, 05:29 AM, said:

                                                                                                          Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible anymore that many other things that people do all of the time.

                                                                                                          I'm sick of hearing "It's against my morals." First of all, there's a separation of church and state, and second of all, well what I said above.

                                                                                                          I'm honestly convinced that many of these people who are "morally" against homosexuality, are just using the Bible to make their homophobia look justified. And it needs to stop, right now.

                                                                                                          Does it need to stop? Like right now?
                                                                                                          Why does it need to stop? Why don't gay activists need to stop? Why are your views so much better then mine that mine should cease to exist?

                                                                                                          View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 12 2009, 12:06 PM, said:


                                                                                                          ?

                                                                                                          #53   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                            Posted 11 April 2009 - 09:32 PM

                                                                                                            View Postwatch, on Apr 11 2009, 11:27 PM, said:

                                                                                                            Does it need to stop? Like right now?
                                                                                                            Why does it need to stop? Why don't gay activists need to stop? Why are your views so much better then mine that mine should cease to exist?
                                                                                                            ?

                                                                                                            Don`t waste your breath. I`ve been in the same situation with Toasty. If you ask questions that they know they can`t answer without seeming ridiculous, or just cant answer because it`s wrong, they`ll avoid said questions. They will work their sentences around the questions. They will not come right out and answer you question. For example; anybody here against gay marriage, how does it affect you in a negative way? There is no answer to that question becuase it doesn`t affect them in a negative way, therefore the anit-gay-marriagers will avoid or flat out just ignore the question.

                                                                                                            EDIT- That link you posted GL; brilliant.

                                                                                                            EDITEDIT-Okay, I realised you`re on the other side.. Okay, answer my question then. How does gay marriage affect you in a negative way, and therefore should stop?

                                                                                                            #54   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                              Posted 11 April 2009 - 09:42 PM

                                                                                                              View Postwatch, on Apr 12 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

                                                                                                              Does it need to stop? Like right now?
                                                                                                              Why does it need to stop? Why don't gay activists need to stop? Why are your views so much better then mine that mine should cease to exist?

                                                                                                              Allowing other people to live by their own beliefs doesn't mean you have to take those beliefs onto yourself. It just means you have to accept them, even if you don't support or agree with them whatsoever. People have been giving religious groups that same right for centuries.

                                                                                                              #55   Envy 

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                                                                                                                Posted 11 April 2009 - 11:26 PM

                                                                                                                Oh, okay... Here's what I meant:

                                                                                                                View PostEnvy, on Apr 11 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

                                                                                                                Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible any more than many other things that people do all of the time.


                                                                                                                EDIT: Wow a whole new page appeared.. :P I didn't realize...

                                                                                                                #56   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                  Posted 11 April 2009 - 11:34 PM

                                                                                                                  View PostEnvy, on Apr 11 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

                                                                                                                  Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible anymore that many other things that people do all of the time.I'm sick of hearing "It's against my morals." First of all, there's a separation of church and state, and second of all, well what I said above.I'm honestly convinced that many of these people who are "morally" against homosexuality, are just using the Bible to make their homophobia look justified. And it needs to stop, right now.


                                                                                                                  If I was a homophobe, I wouldn't have anything to do with gay people and I'd probably hate them. But that's not true, and I've stated why I consider it to be morally wrong. So do some un-convincing.

                                                                                                                  As for the "separation of church and state," it was origionally meant by the founding fathers to prevent the state from controlling the church. It was never intended to prevent the church from having an influence on the state.



                                                                                                                  View PostRegret, on Apr 11 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

                                                                                                                  Gay sex prevents the advancement of human society.


                                                                                                                  Fixed to make a better point.



                                                                                                                  View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 11 2009, 08:32 PM, said:

                                                                                                                  Don`t waste your breath. I`ve been in the same situation with Toasty. If you ask questions that they know they can`t answer without seeming ridiculous, or just cant answer because it`s wrong, they`ll avoid said questions. They will work their sentences around the questions. They will not come right out and answer you question. For example; anybody here against gay marriage, how does it affect you in a negative way? There is no answer to that question becuase it doesn`t affect them in a negative way, therefore the anit-gay-marriagers will avoid or flat out just ignore the question.

                                                                                                                  EDIT- That link you posted GL; brilliant.

                                                                                                                  EDITEDIT-Okay, I realised you`re on the other side.. Okay, answer my question then. How does gay marriage affect you in a negative way, and therefore should stop?


                                                                                                                  I'd say the reverse argument is true. Skidz, whenever I get into a religious debate with you, you refute absolutely ever logical thing I throw at you. And yes, religion does in fact have logic.

                                                                                                                  As for your second edit, it's just another thing that strays away from christian morals. The main difference between this and other things that stray from christian morals, is that this one can at least be somewhat contained/controlled.

                                                                                                                  You can claim separation of church and state or whatever, or claim that my statement is a religious hypocrisy or whatever the hell you want.

                                                                                                                  Point is: back when the majority of the American population went to church every Sunday, the only thing you had to worry about when you left your kid alone was the chance that he could hurt himself. Back then, there was no such thing as locks for your car because theft very rarely ever occurred. Heck, you didn't even have to lock the doors to your house. Back then, people respected their elders, got along with each other much better than they do now, and actually followed the law.

                                                                                                                  Case in point: Christian morals made America a better place. As time when on and people strayed away from them, things got worse.


                                                                                                                  Nowadays, kids are practically encouraged by the media to have sex and do drugs, and pretty much do whatever the hell they want without any regard for morals or the law.

                                                                                                                  I'll admit that homosexuality doesn't necessarily harm or kill people, but it's just another thing that strays away from common morals. Or at least, christian morals.

                                                                                                                  #57   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                    Posted 11 April 2009 - 11:45 PM

                                                                                                                    How does it affect me in a positive way? I have a gay friend, so gay marriage being legal in Canada allows him to get married, and aren`t you happy when your friends are? And I refute it successfully. Moving on. Sure it does, but a magical being in the sky that with just his mind created an entire universe is about as logical as a giant poop god or scientology.

                                                                                                                    EDIT-Qucik response. Why should everybody have the morals that the Christian faith put out for us? Isn`t religion a choice?

                                                                                                                    #58   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                      Posted 12 April 2009 - 12:20 AM

                                                                                                                      View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 06:34 AM, said:

                                                                                                                      If I was a homophobe, I wouldn't have anything to do with gay people and I'd probably hate them. But that's not true, and I've stated why I consider it to be morally wrong. So do some un-convincing.

                                                                                                                      As for the "separation of church and state," it was origionally meant by the founding fathers to prevent the state from controlling the church. It was never intended to prevent the church from having an influence on the state.
                                                                                                                      Fixed to make a better point.
                                                                                                                      I'd say the reverse argument is true. Skidz, whenever I get into a religious debate with you, you refute absolutely ever logical thing I throw at you. And yes, religion does in fact have logic.

                                                                                                                      As for your second edit, it's just another thing that strays away from christian morals. The main difference between this and other things that stray from christian morals, is that this one can at least be somewhat contained/controlled.

                                                                                                                      You can claim separation of church and state or whatever, or claim that my statement is a religious hypocrisy or whatever the hell you want.

                                                                                                                      Point is: back when the majority of the American population went to church every Sunday, the only thing you had to worry about when you left your kid alone was the chance that he could hurt himself. Back then, there was no such thing as locks for your car because theft very rarely ever occurred. Heck, you didn't even have to lock the doors to your house. Back then, people respected their elders, got along with each other much better than they do now, and actually followed the law.

                                                                                                                      Case in point: Christian morals made America a better place. As time when on and people strayed away from them, things got worse.
                                                                                                                      Nowadays, kids are practically encouraged by the media to have sex and do drugs, and pretty much do whatever the hell they want without any regard for morals or the law.

                                                                                                                      I'll admit that homosexuality doesn't necessarily harm or kill people, but it's just another thing that strays away from common morals. Or at least, christian morals.


                                                                                                                      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

                                                                                                                      Also it would be better if people didn't ****ing bread so much as even at our current population we wouldn't be able to sustain ourself on this planet for long, to to mention the fact in the next 50 years the population will be so much larger than now. But whatever I didn't come here to make a point or argue, just to laugh at Toasty.

                                                                                                                      #59   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                        Posted 12 April 2009 - 12:26 AM

                                                                                                                        View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 12 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

                                                                                                                        EDIT-Qucik response. Why should everybody have the morals that the Christian faith put out for us? Isn`t religion a choice?

                                                                                                                        Pretty much summarises my whole point in this topic.

                                                                                                                        #60   Nosferatu 

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                                                                                                                          Posted 12 April 2009 - 12:27 AM

                                                                                                                          When it comes to Christians just facepalm and move on.

                                                                                                                          #61   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                                                            Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:01 AM

                                                                                                                            View PostRegret, on Apr 12 2009, 05:22 AM, said:

                                                                                                                            Ok, gay sex has a greater chance of spreading AIDS.


                                                                                                                            It's just anal sex in general. Technically, a hetero couple can have anal sex if they wanted to. So it's not gay sex.

                                                                                                                            This seems like a good time to talk about www.godhatesfags.com
                                                                                                                            That's how pea-brained some christians are these days.

                                                                                                                            #62   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                                              Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:04 AM

                                                                                                                              View PostSir Walsingham, on Apr 12 2009, 12:01 AM, said:

                                                                                                                              It's just anal sex in general. Technically, a hetero couple can have anal sex if they wanted to. So it's not gay sex.

                                                                                                                              This seems like a good time to talk about www.godhatesfags.com
                                                                                                                              That's how pea-brained some christians are these days.

                                                                                                                              Yeah, but Heterosexuals don't have to.

                                                                                                                              #63   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:10 AM

                                                                                                                                View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 11 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                How does it affect me in a positive way? I have a gay friend, so gay marriage being legal in Canada allows him to get married, and aren`t you happy when your friends are? And I refute it successfully. Moving on. Sure it does, but a magical being in the sky that with just his mind created an entire universe is about as logical as a giant poop god or scientology.

                                                                                                                                EDIT-Qucik response. Why should everybody have the morals that the Christian faith put out for us? Isn`t religion a choice?


                                                                                                                                Religion is a choice. But if the majority of people still valued christian morals like they did 60 or 70 years ago, the world would be a better place. There is no doubt about that. There would be less crime, less hatred, less corruption, everything in general would be better. That is why everyone should follow christian values. The values that America just so happens to be founded upon.

                                                                                                                                View PostLegolastom, on Apr 11 2009, 11:20 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

                                                                                                                                Also it would be better if people didn't ****ing bread so much as even at our current population we wouldn't be able to sustain ourself on this planet for long, to to mention the fact in the next 50 years the population will be so much larger than now. But whatever I didn't come here to make a point or argue, just to laugh at Toasty.


                                                                                                                                If you only came in to laugh, then don't post. At least show some respect to the people who are actually debating the topic.

                                                                                                                                #64   Nosferatu 

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                                                                                                                                  Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:18 AM

                                                                                                                                  View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                  Religion is a choice. But if the majority of people still valued christian morals like they did 60 or 70 years ago, the world would be a better place. There is no doubt about that.

                                                                                                                                  The FUCK there isn't.

                                                                                                                                  #65   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                    Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:19 AM

                                                                                                                                    View PostRegret, on Apr 12 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                    Yeah, but Heterosexuals don't have to.

                                                                                                                                    Neither do homosexuals, dumbass.

                                                                                                                                    #66   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                                                      Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:34 AM

                                                                                                                                      View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 12 2009, 12:19 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                      Neither do homosexuals, dumbass.

                                                                                                                                      Unless their abstaining, then yes they do.

                                                                                                                                      #67   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                        Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:57 AM

                                                                                                                                        View PostNosferatu, on Apr 12 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                        The FUCK there isn't.


                                                                                                                                        You go ahead and believe that. Out of all the trends involving crime and corruption, the strongest one is the one that compares it to the decline in moral values. Specifically, the decline in the number of people who believe in christian moral values.

                                                                                                                                        Though I suppose you could have a different definition of what would be considered "better".

                                                                                                                                        View PostSir Walsingham, on Apr 12 2009, 12:01 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                        This seems like a good time to talk about www.godhatesfags.com
                                                                                                                                        That's how pea-brained some christians are these days.


                                                                                                                                        Key word there is "some".

                                                                                                                                        I don't agree with people like those who created and support that website. Christianity doesn't preach hatred of any kind, and god certainly doesn't hate homosexuals.

                                                                                                                                        #68   Nosferatu 

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                                                                                                                                          Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:31 AM

                                                                                                                                          View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 12:57 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                          You go ahead and believe that. Out of all the trends involving crime and corruption, the strongest one is the one that compares it to the decline in moral values. Specifically, the decline in the number of people who believe in christian moral values.

                                                                                                                                          Though I suppose you could have a different definition of what would be considered "better".

                                                                                                                                          Yeah, people who aren't completely narrow minded ****s.

                                                                                                                                          Not pointing any fingers, of course.

                                                                                                                                          #69   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                            Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:37 AM

                                                                                                                                            I'd consider you to be a fairly narrow minded person. You don't seem to listen to other people's opinions very often, if even at all.

                                                                                                                                            #70   Nosferatu 

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                                                                                                                                              Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:39 AM

                                                                                                                                              View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 01:37 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                              I'd consider you to be a fairly narrow minded person. You don't seem to listen to other people's opinions very often, if even at all.

                                                                                                                                              Only yours Toasty, only yours.

                                                                                                                                              #71   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                View PostRegret, on Apr 12 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                Unless their abstaining, then yes they do.

                                                                                                                                                Point still stands...

                                                                                                                                                #72   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                  Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                  View PostNosferatu, on Apr 12 2009, 01:39 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                  Only yours Toasty, only yours.


                                                                                                                                                  No, I have yet to see you listen to anyone else's opinion here.

                                                                                                                                                  #73   Nosferatu 

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                                                                                                                                                    Posted 12 April 2009 - 02:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                    View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 01:44 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                    No, I have yet to see you listen to anyone else's opinion here.

                                                                                                                                                    And when do I ever participate in any of the topics other than to insult someone? It's kinda hard to listen to an opinion when you're just insulting them and leaving.

                                                                                                                                                    My jackassery (Is that even a word?) aside, I suggest everybody Pop-Tart get back on topic. Toasty, get a grip on the fact that I stop in to insult people or be an asshole, not to bother with people.

                                                                                                                                                    Edit: Urban dictionary says it is. Good enough for me.

                                                                                                                                                    #74   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                      Posted 12 April 2009 - 03:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                      All I'm saying is that you're narrow minded. If you're not denying that, then there's nothing I need to get a grip on.

                                                                                                                                                      #75   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                        Posted 12 April 2009 - 03:09 AM

                                                                                                                                                        BACK ON TOPIC, Jesus...

                                                                                                                                                        View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                        Religion is a choice. But if the majority of people still valued christian morals like they did 60 or 70 years ago, the world would be a better place. There is no doubt about that. There would be less crime, less hatred, less corruption, everything in general would be better. That is why everyone should follow christian values. The values that America just so happens to be founded upon.

                                                                                                                                                        Yes, Christian values brought the western world to where it is today, but that doesn't mean all of them are relevant to modern society; just the ones which have grounding in today's moral logic. I've said this before.

                                                                                                                                                        #76   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                          Posted 12 April 2009 - 03:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                          Personally speaking, I could handle a Christian society if everyone else was as faithful as I was (or more). But that isn't going to happen. The world hasn't gotten any "better" in the last couple of hundred years or so. In fact, it's actually gotten a lot worse. If everyone followed the first 5 commandments to a T, then things would be better, and Christianity could work. But people have strayed farther and farther away from morality.

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                                                                                                                                                            Posted 12 April 2009 - 04:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                            At first when I read this topic, I was going to give you all a piece of my mind, then as it progressed on I facepalmed and just kept reading, lol.

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                                                                                                                                                              Posted 12 April 2009 - 06:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                              What I want to know is why this arguement "It brings no betterment to human society" is brought up. Does anything? Alcohol lowers reaction times is potentially extremely dangerous, but we still drink it because it's fun. It brings no advancement to human society. Driving a car brings no betterment to human society; it uses fossil fuels, contributing to global warming. Sure, it gets us places faster but it's not actually bettering our race. I just find the fact that it "doesnt advance the human race" a bit of a null point.

                                                                                                                                                              #79   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                Posted 12 April 2009 - 08:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                                View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 03:10 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                Religion is a choice. But if the majority of people still valued christian morals like they did 60 or 70 years ago, the world would be a better place. There is no doubt about that. There would be less crime, less hatred, less corruption, everything in general would be better. That is why everyone should follow christian values. The values that America just so happens to be founded upon.
                                                                                                                                                                If you only came in to laugh, then don't post. At least show some respect to the people who are actually debating the topic.

                                                                                                                                                                Not American.

                                                                                                                                                                #80   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 12 April 2009 - 12:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  Toasty, if homosexuality and/or gay marriage is incompatible with Christianity, then why are there devout Christians who support it?

                                                                                                                                                                  #81   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 12 April 2009 - 01:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    View PostRegret, on Apr 12 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                    Unless their abstaining, then yes they do.


                                                                                                                                                                    View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 12 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                    Point still stands...


                                                                                                                                                                    Oral sex? I know according to Bill Clinton it isn't sex, but let's just count it anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                    Point is, just use a condom.

                                                                                                                                                                    #82   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 12 April 2009 - 10:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 12 2009, 11:48 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                      Toasty, if homosexuality and/or gay marriage is incompatible with Christianity, then why are there devout Christians who support it?


                                                                                                                                                                      Beats me. Likely because they interpret the bible differently.

                                                                                                                                                                      #83   Someone Else 

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                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 12 April 2009 - 10:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                        Oral sex is about as much sex as a handjob or fingering is. Yeah oral is pretty damn kinky but there's no penetration... not supposed to be anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                        But that's a different arguement. *whistles, poofs away*

                                                                                                                                                                        #84   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 12 April 2009 - 10:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          Something you want to tell us, Gordo? :]

                                                                                                                                                                          #85   Someone Else 

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                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 13 April 2009 - 12:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                            I'm not gay, you bastard.

                                                                                                                                                                            #86   Fury 

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                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 13 April 2009 - 11:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                              I'm not sure where I stand on this issue but the one thing I do know is that the Bible teaches fairness and equality to all. And the fact that alot of religions shun homosexuality is most likely something God didn't intend, but possibly the result of humans corrupting religion.

                                                                                                                                                                              #87   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 13 April 2009 - 11:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                Go read the bible dude.

                                                                                                                                                                                #88   My Best Wishes 

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                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 14 April 2009 - 01:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 12 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don`t waste your breath. I`ve been in the same situation with Toasty. If you ask questions that they know they can`t answer without seeming ridiculous, or just cant answer because it`s wrong, they`ll avoid said questions. They will work their sentences around the questions. They will not come right out and answer you question. For example; anybody here against gay marriage, how does it affect you in a negative way? There is no answer to that question becuase it doesn`t affect them in a negative way, therefore the anit-gay-marriagers will avoid or flat out just ignore the question.

                                                                                                                                                                                  EDIT- That link you posted GL; brilliant.

                                                                                                                                                                                  EDITEDIT-Okay, I realised you`re on the other side.. Okay, answer my question then. How does gay marriage affect you in a negative way, and therefore should stop?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't take this as a flame but I've noticed that you seem to dodge direct questions as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Gay marriage doesn't affect in a negative way, if James and Ned in Alabama went and got hitched I wouldn't know or care, I just don't like that they want to call it marriage when it isn't. Go have a commitment ceremony or something.


                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 13 2009, 04:48 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                  Toasty, if homosexuality and/or gay marriage is incompatible with Christianity, then why are there devout Christians who support it?

                                                                                                                                                                                  We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi...contentLocale=0
                                                                                                                                                                                  Is there more a devout Christian church then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostFury, on Apr 14 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not sure where I stand on this issue but the one thing I do know is that the Bible teaches fairness and equality to all. And the fact that alot of religions shun homosexuality is most likely something God didn't intend, but possibly the result of humans corrupting religion.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Echoing what Toasty said.

                                                                                                                                                                                  ~!2600!~

                                                                                                                                                                                  #89   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 14 April 2009 - 03:20 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    View Postwatch, on Apr 14 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gay marriage doesn't affect in a negative way, if James and Ned in Alabama went and got hitched I wouldn't know or care, I just don't like that they want to call it marriage when it isn't. Go have a commitment ceremony or something.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Marriage is a commitment ceremony.

                                                                                                                                                                                    #90   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 14 April 2009 - 04:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      View Postwatch, on Apr 14 2009, 03:45 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't take this as a flame but I've noticed that you seem to dodge direct questions as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Gay marriage doesn't affect in a negative way, if James and Ned in Alabama went and got hitched I wouldn't know or care, I just don't like that they want to call it marriage when it isn't. Go have a commitment ceremony or something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi...contentLocale=0
                                                                                                                                                                                      Is there more a devout Christian church then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Echoing what Toasty said.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Naw, I probably do, but in this case I beg to differ. The one main question I`ve wanted answering is how it negatively affects anybody if gays get married other than morals. I have been asked how it positively affects me, and I answered it directly.

                                                                                                                                                                                      #91   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 14 April 2009 - 06:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        View Postwatch, on Apr 14 2009, 03:45 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                        We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
                                                                                                                                                                                        http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi...contentLocale=0
                                                                                                                                                                                        Is there more a devout Christian church then The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

                                                                                                                                                                                        You misinterpreted my point. I never said that only "devout" churches support gay marriage. In fact my point was the opposite - I said such churches DO exist alongside ones such as yours. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has that, then who is more 'devout' when it comes to one such as:

                                                                                                                                                                                        WHEREAS the Bible affirms and celebrates human expressions of love and partnership, calling
                                                                                                                                                                                        us to live out fully that gift of God in responsible, faithful, committed relationships that
                                                                                                                                                                                        recognize and respect the image of God in all people; and
                                                                                                                                                                                        WHEREAS the life and example of Jesus of Nazareth provides a model of radically inclusive
                                                                                                                                                                                        love and abundant welcome for all; ...

                                                                                                                                                                                        ... THEREFORE LET IT BE RESOLVED, that the Twenty-fifth General Synod of the United Church
                                                                                                                                                                                        of Christ affirms equal marriage rights for couples regardless of gender and declares that the
                                                                                                                                                                                        government should not interfere with couples regardless of gender who choose to marry and
                                                                                                                                                                                        share fully and equally in the rights, responsibilities and commitment of legally recognized
                                                                                                                                                                                        marriage;


                                                                                                                                                                                        United Church of Christ, http://www.ucc.org/l...statements.html

                                                                                                                                                                                        #92   Caael 

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                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 14 April 2009 - 08:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                          View PostRegret, on Apr 12 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                          Bestiality doesn't hurt anyone, and it's not evil. Who are we to judge what a person can love, right?


                                                                                                                                                                                          There's so much wrong with that sentence...

                                                                                                                                                                                          a) Beastiality is technically rape, seeing as animals cannot give spoken or written consent so basically you're raping the poor thing
                                                                                                                                                                                          b) Inter-species sex is just wrong as a human penis might be too big/too small for the animal which could cause discomfort, somebody might have to restrain the animal to keep it from getting away. In one case where a woman had sex with a horse, the horse penis ruptured her intestines and killed her because it was so large.
                                                                                                                                                                                          c) Animals (including humans) were not MEANT to reproduce with animals from another species. Otherwise we'd have flying gorillas, elephants that live in the sea etc etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                          There's so much more wrong with it, but the fact that you're actually comparing homosexuality to raping animals sickens me.

                                                                                                                                                                                          #93   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 14 April 2009 - 05:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, humans weren't MEANT to reproduce between the same gender either;

                                                                                                                                                                                            Doesn't make it wrong though.

                                                                                                                                                                                            #94   Mo Cappy Ton 

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                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 14 April 2009 - 08:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                              OK so im a newb at forums so i dont know how to quote people. but Toasty said something about society being better with full christian beliefs. now, im not tryin to flame/fate but i totally got this mental picture of a piece of toast on a huge throne and a scepter, preaching a bunch of out-of-context bible verses...anyway im sure thats pretty biased and what-not. i just thought i'd share my thought.

                                                                                                                                                                                              ON Topic - I would think that you would have to limit that to a single denomination because with all those differences between christian beliefs could also cause problems. with ireland/northern ireland(not sure where exactly its/it goin down)

                                                                                                                                                                                              I supose you could argue that if they were true christians they would settle their differences with maturity but i guess im a little to....oh dang lost the word, umm help me out guys its kinda like a cynic/skeptic....um i think edgar allen poe was one. possibly the antonym of a transcendentalism

                                                                                                                                                                                              #95   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 14 April 2009 - 09:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                ...what are you talking about?

                                                                                                                                                                                                #96   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 14 April 2009 - 09:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostMo Cappy Ton, on Apr 14 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  OK so im a newb at forums so i dont know how to quote people. but Toasty said something about society being better with full christian beliefs. now, im not tryin to flame/fate but i totally got this mental picture of a piece of toast on a huge throne and a scepter, preaching a bunch of out-of-context bible verses...anyway im sure thats pretty biased and what-not. i just thought i'd share my thought.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ON Topic - I would think that you would have to limit that to a single denomination because with all those differences between christian beliefs could also cause problems. with ireland/northern ireland(not sure where exactly its/it goin down)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I supose you could argue that if they were true christians they would settle their differences with maturity but i guess im a little to....oh dang lost the word, umm help me out guys its kinda like a cynic/skeptic....um i think edgar allen poe was one. possibly the antonym of a transcendentalism


                                                                                                                                                                                                  First off, props for a creative imagination.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Second off, by "christian beliefs/morals" I'm talking about the basic Judaio-Christian beliefs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  i.e. love thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others as you would have done unto you, keep your body pure (no drugs or alcohol abuse. They drank wine in the bible, so a little alcohol now and then is obviously not out of the question), no premarital sex, etc. etc. etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Basically, I'm saying that if non-believers at least folowed the five commandments that don't directly involve worshiping God, we;d have a much better society. The other five commandments are things like 'thou shalt not worship other gods" which obviously wouldn't apply to non-Christians (well, form a christian point of view they would, but you get the picture).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Those 5 commandments promote peace and shun hatred and violence, and to my knowledge are also fairly uniform among all christian denominations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  can't help you with the last word there though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  #97   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 15 April 2009 - 01:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    So your trying to say that shunning hatred and violence while promoting peace is a specific Christian thing? If not then why mention those basic values as being Christian?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also you are obviously trying to say that non Christians (Or "non believers" as you call them lol) cause the problems in society, when funnily enough what? 90% of Americans are Christian? Then again I must lol.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Of course if that wasn't what you were trying to imply then I must apologise but, it seems like that is what your saying to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    #98   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 15 April 2009 - 01:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just because someone says that they're a christian, doesn't mean that they follow the ten commandments. Or even five of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      What I said is what christian teachings promote, but just because the teachings promote them doesn't mean everyone follows them. "Christian" or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      And I used quotation marks there because a lot of people will say that they're christians without even following many of the christian teachings.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      As for 90% of Americans being Christian, I could only hope. Unfortunately, it's not quite that much. I don't know the statistic however.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      #99   Laharl 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 15 April 2009 - 11:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        can you guys debate anything 'serious' without bringing religion into it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        #100   Fury 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 15 April 2009 - 03:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          View PostLaharl, on Apr 15 2009, 01:31 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                          can you guys debate anything 'serious' without bringing religion into it?


                                                                                                                                                                                                          Not in todays society.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          #101   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 15 April 2009 - 04:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                            View PostFury, on Apr 15 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not in todays society.


                                                                                                                                                                                                            *Facepalm*

                                                                                                                                                                                                            #102   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 16 April 2009 - 12:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              View PostLaharl, on Apr 15 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                              can you guys debate anything 'serious' without bringing religion into it?



                                                                                                                                                                                                              No, because gay marriage happens to involve religion quite a bit, if you didn't notice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              #103   Laharl 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                if you say so~

                                                                                                                                                                                                                gay marriage doesnt give a shit what religion thinks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                and besides everyone knows the only buttsex allowed in Christianity is between priests and little boys

                                                                                                                                                                                                                #104   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 16 April 2009 - 07:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostLaharl, on Apr 16 2009, 06:21 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  if you say so~

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  gay marriage doesnt give a shit what religion thinks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  and besides everyone knows the only buttsex allowed in Christianity is between priests and little boys

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  merked merked merked

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #105   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 16 April 2009 - 07:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That's taking it too far. The reason why gay marriage invokes religion is that the institution of marriage itself is bound with religion. Whether you agree it should be is another matter entirely.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #106   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 16 April 2009 - 08:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, since even atheists get married...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #107   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 16 April 2009 - 09:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Marriage has no longer a solely religious meaning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #108   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why then are marriage ceremonies largely still conducted in churches in Western nations?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #109   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'd imagine because it originated from the socialogical ideals of Christianity, which has never been widely practiced in the East.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            tl;dr: It's a culture thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #110   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That's fair enough. It's unfortunate that issues like this always have to be hammered into another "religious morality vs. non-morality" debate, instead of actually focusing on the issue itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #111   Someone Else 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well hey people get married in Vegas all the time, I got a hard time believing that's done in churches but what do I know? =O

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Basically: gays should go get married in Vegas

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #112   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  lawls so true. Um and there are a ton of places to get married and a ton of different people who can marry you, it doesn't just have to be a religious thing. I could get certified to marry people off the web. Marriage between gays should be recognized because the law states that all people are equal and church is supposed to be separated from state, so gay marriage should be legal. I'm not saying churches shouldn't be able to reserve the right to be idiots and not let gays marry in their church, just as they reserve the right to not marry non-christians or synagogues refuse to marry non-jews, but in general it should be legal. Like it is in Canada. Because we know how to separate church and state. Because we're awesome.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #113   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 21 April 2009 - 08:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Well said Kate, I agree with every word.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #114   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 22 April 2009 - 07:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      View Postkate, on Apr 21 2009, 07:24 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      lawls so true. Um and there are a ton of places to get married and a ton of different people who can marry you, it doesn't just have to be a religious thing. I could get certified to marry people off the web. Marriage between gays should be recognized because the law states that all people are equal and church is supposed to be separated from state, so gay marriage should be legal. I'm not saying churches shouldn't be able to reserve the right to be idiots and not let gays marry in their church, just as they reserve the right to not marry non-christians or synagogues refuse to marry non-jews, but in general it should be legal. Like it is in Canada. Because we know how to separate church and state. Because we're awesome.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Because we`re smart. And of course, that...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #115   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • AKA killercoz

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 25 April 2009 - 11:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostToasty, on Apr 9 2009, 12:35 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Because man+man=/= babies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Why does that matter? In fact, in the world currently being overpopulated, isn't that a positive thing? Also, that can mean parents for children in orphanages. Also, technology has allowed gay couples to have children through surrogacy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View Postwatch, on Apr 9 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From a moral view? It isn't right, it goes against society, and while that necessarily doesn't make it bad, it also goes against our instincts, if everyone were gay then the human race would cease to exist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (long thing about the vandalism)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The human race wouldn't cease to exist if everyone was gay (And it's not like that's really an issue since not everyone is gay). Surrogacy would allow the human race to continue. Perhaps it goes against your instincts, but it obviously doesn't go against the instincts of those who are gay. It goes against society? What does that even mean?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View Postwatch, on Apr 11 2009, 01:15 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Does it help you sleep at night knowing that gay people can get married?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yes actually.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostRegret, on Apr 11 2009, 09:24 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Gay sex spreads AIDS.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        No more than straight sex. If gay couples use condoms, they'll be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostToasty, on Apr 12 2009, 02:10 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Religion is a choice. But if the majority of people still valued christian morals like they did 60 or 70 years ago, the world would be a better place. There is no doubt about that. There would be less crime, less hatred, less corruption, everything in general would be better. That is why everyone should follow christian values. The values that America just so happens to be founded upon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        America was founded on a freedom of religion, not on Christianity. As for your statement, there are parts of the bible that say you should be able to sell your children... If people followed teh part of the bible that said 'help thy neighbor' then the world would be a better place, but if people followed ALL parts of the bible the world would be a worse place. For me, people should all be allowed to their own interpretation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        of the bible. Believing in the good morals of the bible doesn't mean you have to be anti-gay or aganist gay marriage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have no idea if I'll want to marry one day. All I know is that it would be awful if I didnt have the choice to marry. Wouldn't you be upset if your friends were allowed to marry and you knew you never would be able to. Shouldn't anyone be able to marry someone they love? I guess thats what no arguement has ever been able to convince me of? I shouldn't be able to label my love of someone as marriage because...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • me and my husband can't produce children without technology? what do children have to do with marriage? Plenty of straight couples don't procreate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • God says its wrong? The bible was written by man. If God does exist, what proof is there that he hates gays or doesn't want us to marry?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • being gay is immoral? I didn't choose to be gay. I didn't know that something I can't control that doesn't change my personality can be immoral.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If it was said that Muslims, blacks, or women couldn't have the same rights as everyone else, I'd imagine that all of you would say that it would be religously prejudice, racist, or sexist (in that order). Gays are just another group to discriminate against. So if all of those groups deserve the same rights, why don't homosexuals?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #116   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 25 April 2009 - 01:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Because the Bible says so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #117   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 25 April 2009 - 07:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If more people were christian like 60-70 years ago there'd be less crime and hatred? Right around the time of those two world wars? Is that the time you're talking about? Or how about further back to the time of the crusades. or the spanish inquisition. Or the endless years of oppression against the Jewish community by christian europe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My god thank goodness there's still some christians in this world to go around telling people that they're better than everyone, or I don't know what we'd come to if everyone were just tolerant. What a dystopian future that would be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            k I'm done raging now...sorry to be hating on one group more than others, because I know not all christians are like that, but some ignorant comments just get me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If we're really basing whether it should be legal on whether it's immoral or goes against society or not (because that's the only arguement I can find that doesn't have to do with the church) then my point is kinda made for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What coz said about it not being a choice and therefore not immoral doesn't quite cover it because the same thing could be said about killers or pedophilia. Some things that are genetic or deeply rooted in someone's mind doesn't necessarily mean they're not immoral. It's the fact that being gay is about love just as much as being straight. There's basically no difference, especially with surrogates as coz said. The truth is you think it's immoral because it's different, because it's the minority. If most people were gay you'd be saying the same thing about straight people. Unless you're basing your thoughts about the matter on religion, in which case see above to know what I think about that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As for it going against society, have you been to a high school lately? The biggest trend is being gay, or pseudo gay, or effeminate, or bi. Which means, if it's not already, when these kids graduate they will be society. So you have that to look forward to :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #118   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 25 April 2009 - 08:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View Postkillercoz, on Apr 25 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              America was founded on a freedom of religion, not on Christianity. As for your statement, there are parts of the bible that say you should be able to sell your children... If people followed teh part of the bible that said 'help thy neighbor' then the world would be a better place, but if people followed ALL parts of the bible the world would be a worse place. For me, people should all be allowed to their own interpretation
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              of the bible. Believing in the good morals of the bible doesn't mean you have to be anti-gay or aganist gay marriage.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              First off, go read up on your American history. America was founded upon christian morals. The freedom to choose your religion was just part of the constitution. Over all, when America was first formed, it was largely and by far a christian-believing nation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Show me the passage in the bible that says it's alright to sell your children.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And how can you say the world would be worse off if it followed all parts of the bible, if you've barely ever read it (if you've even read it at all)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And you're right, believing those morals doesn't mean that. However, believing in christian teachings does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #119   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • AKA killercoz

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 25 April 2009 - 09:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View PostToasty, on Apr 25 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                First off, go read up on your American history. America was founded upon christian morals. The freedom to choose your religion was just part of the constitution. Over all, when America was first formed, it was largely and by far a christian-believing nation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Show me the passage in the bible that says it's alright to sell your children.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And how can you say the world would be worse off if it followed all parts of the bible, if you've barely ever read it (if you've even read it at all)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And you're right, believing those morals doesn't mean that. However, believing in christian teachings does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                First off, please do not insult my intelligence. I tried to not do that in my post and if i did I apologize. My opinion on this matter doesn't mke me take personal jabs at you so I feel you should do the same. Furthermore I never said that there weren't a lot of Christians just that you didn't have to me Christian.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Secondly, When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Because the bible should be open to interpretation, people should be able to ignore the above passage as out of date. Similarly, people should regard the only a man and woman yshould marry as out of date as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #120   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 25 April 2009 - 10:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View Postkillercoz, on Apr 25 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  First off, please do not insult my intelligence. I tried to not do that in my post and if i did I apologize. My opinion on this matter doesn't mke me take personal jabs at you so I feel you should do the same. Furthermore I never said that there weren't a lot of Christians just that you didn't have to me Christian.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Secondly, When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Because the bible should be open to interpretation, people should be able to ignore the above passage as out of date. Similarly, people should regard the only a man and woman yshould marry as out of date as well.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, but I hate it when people make accusations without being properly informed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, back then slaves weren't necessarily in the same boat as the slaves in early America.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Slavery back then didn't mean being whipped/etc. The term "slave" in that passage doesn't mean the same thing that it does today. Obviously, if you're a slave, you're still owned by someone. But that just means that the person who owns you is in charge of you, and you have to do as he says.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That passage, along with the six verses before it we're put there as guidelines to prevent the mistreatment of slaves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Back then, whether a slave was payed or not was up to their owner. But they were still given a place to stay, and food to eat.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was like being an employee. Just with fewer freedoms.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And to all of those who will claim that I'm just blindly defending my religion, go read a history book. Specifically, about middle-eastern slavery during and before the time of African slavery in the US.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In that area during that time, even slaves had their own slaves, and some slaves were even rich and wealthy. Others had fairly high positions in government.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The term "slavery" meant something completely different back than than it does now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #121   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 26 April 2009 - 01:00 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so you're agreeing that things in the bible should be viewed differently given the time period and changing it to become applicable to society today?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #122   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 26 April 2009 - 05:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      View PostToasty, on Apr 26 2009, 03:41 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And how can you say the world would be worse off if it followed all parts of the bible, if you've barely ever read it (if you've even read it at all)?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And you're right, believing those morals doesn't mean that. However, believing in christian teachings does.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And the world would also be a lot better if people followed the Qur'an (Not sure about the spelling), Torah as well as the holy books of most other religions. Right Toasty? It would also be better if the whole world was communist. Right Toasty?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also Toasty what about the part of the Bible that says your Children should be stoned to death if they are disobedient?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #123   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 26 April 2009 - 02:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostToasty, on Apr 25 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Show me the passage in the bible that says it's alright to sell your children.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I did

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostToasty, on Apr 25 2009, 11:47 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, back then slaves weren't necessarily in the same boat as the slaves in early America.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Slavery back then didn't mean being whipped/etc. The term "slave" in that passage doesn't mean the same thing that it does today. Obviously, if you're a slave, you're still owned by someone. But that just means that the person who owns you is in charge of you, and you have to do as he says.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That passage, along with the six verses before it we're put there as guidelines to prevent the mistreatment of slaves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Back then, whether a slave was payed or not was up to their owner. But they were still given a place to stay, and food to eat.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It was like being an employee. Just with fewer freedoms.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And to all of those who will claim that I'm just blindly defending my religion, go read a history book. Specifically, about middle-eastern slavery during and before the time of African slavery in the US.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In that area during that time, even slaves had their own slaves, and some slaves were even rich and wealthy. Others had fairly high positions in government.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The term "slavery" meant something completely different back than than it does now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And now your changing what you asked for. You're saying that slavery is okay? The first two lines are When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. I'm not sure how selling your daughter for the duration of her life is like being an employee. My point is- with the changing of time things become out-of-date. People shouldn't be able to sell their daughters and marriage just shouldn't be a man and woman only. Can you please rewrite some of your non religous debates as I would like a chance to debate those as well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #124   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 26 April 2009 - 04:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View Postkate, on Apr 26 2009, 03:00 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          so you're agreeing that things in the bible should be viewed differently given the time period and changing it to become applicable to society today?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How I love responses like this. Toasty, nobody even needs to respond, you`re losing this areguement by yourself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #125   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Like I said, slavery back then was an entirely different thing. People were only thrown into slavery if they were on the losing side of a war, or if they sold themselves into it.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            View PostLegolastom, on Apr 26 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And the world would also be a lot better if people followed the Qur'an (Not sure about the spelling), Torah as well as the holy books of most other religions. Right Toasty? It would also be better if the whole world was communist. Right Toasty?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Also Toasty what about the part of the Bible that says your Children should be stoned to death if they are disobedient?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The Qu'ran (sp?) and all those other holy books aren't a part of the christian religion, so no, I can't say that the world would be a better place if everyone followed their teachings. Mostly because I've never read them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Show me the passage in the bible where it says you should stone your children, because most people often interpret the bible in the wrong way. Chances are, it means that disobedient children should be punished. What sense would it make for the bible to tell people not to kill, and then command them to stone their disobedient children to death?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #126   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It doesn't sound like anyone was losing a war in the cited passage.... It seemed like it was done for greedy reasonings.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I guess it's open to interpretations. However, the bible doesn't say anywhere that it's alright to force someone into slavery. Only that they should only become a slave by free will, and that should your brother (or friend, or whatever) decide to become a slave, that you should try and give them other options. Or something.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The bible doesn't really support slavery, I believe, but it doesn't condemn it. It just puts guidelines around it to prevent its abuse. Like forcing people to become slaves, and then mistreating those slaves.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #128   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 26 April 2009 - 07:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, would you agree that in modern times, people shouldn't be able to do whatever slavery was when the bible was written?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #129   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 26 April 2009 - 07:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Depends, I suppose. Since slavery nowadays is a taboo, and pretty much any attempt at it in this day and age would result in it's abuse, I'd have to say no, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But, still, while some things should be interpreted differently in a different era, others shouldn't.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #130   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 26 April 2009 - 07:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So you agree that as state laws and state society changes, the catholic churches tolerance of certain actions changes, and their views & opinions on certain subjects change..?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      tl;dr Christianity is inconsistant. Bible is highly flawed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #131   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 26 April 2009 - 09:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        No.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Skidz, just wondering, but have you ever read the bible?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #132   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 26 April 2009 - 09:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View PostToasty, on Apr 26 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Skidz, just wondering, but have you ever read the bible?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Depends, I suppose. Since slavery nowadays is a taboo, and pretty much any attempt at it in this day and age would result in it's abuse, I'd have to say no, though. YOU said that. Slavery was perfectly acceptable a hundred years ago, and if asked then you would have said justified it because the bible says so, but now that it's tabboo in real life to own slaves you spin it by saying that the bible must be interpreted differently in different eras. Oh no wait, you even saved your ass on that front saying that some things should be viewed differently, and some shouldn't, that way no matter what you're argueing you can just pick what it should be. Damn, you're smart Toasty. If I ever have to win over Obama on why black people are evil and should be exterminated from this planet, I'ma call you Toasty. When I need to stand in front of the world and tell them that aliens are real and that they look like Ewoks and eat your brains, be sure that I will contact you Toasty.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #133   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 26 April 2009 - 09:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Skidz, there comes a point when your arguments transcend into unnecessary religion-bashing. This is one of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #134   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 26 April 2009 - 10:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View PostToasty, on Apr 26 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Depends, I suppose. Since slavery nowadays is a taboo, and pretty much any attempt at it in this day and age would result in it's abuse, I'd have to say no, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But, still, while some things should be interpreted differently in a different era, others shouldn't.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So in it no longer being acceptable for thsi time period, doesn't that mean that other verses can be applied as well? Such as teh one about marriage being only between a man and a woman...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On a side note, can Skidz stop arguing for the pro same sex side? Hes making us all seem like we ramble and talk out of our asses as he does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #135   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 26 April 2009 - 10:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 26 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Skidz, there comes a point when your arguments transcend into unnecessary religion-bashing. This is one of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Religion bashing aside, my point in that rant is perfectly relevant. Basically Toasty, at what point do the inconsistencies and ability to change everything to fit your viewpoint get old? And how can you sit here and defend said inconsistencies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And whatever you say Coz. No, Toasty, you`re right, fuck faggots. God intended us to stick our dicks in nice tight vaginas, not gross male ass. So so immoral. You will burn coz, you will burn. God curses you and your orientation, for it is evil and is the temptation of the devil.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #136   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 26 April 2009 - 10:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 26 2009, 11:40 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  No, Toasty, you`re right, **** ******s. God intended us to stick our ****s in nice tight vaginas, not gross male ass. So so immoral. You will burn coz, you will burn. God curses you and your orientation, for it is evil and is the temptation of the devil.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Before I respond to this trash, I would like to compliment Toasty for being civil in his arguement and not resorting to the bull**** above. I don't believe it is the temptation of the devil as most people aren't tempted to be gay. Next off, I don't intend on going to heaven or hell so I don't believe I'll burn. Though discussed in a disgusting manners, in a way your second sentence has some truth. Our species was designed so that we need a male and female to reproduce, but not necessarily to love.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #137   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 26 April 2009 - 11:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You do realise I don`t believe a word of that, and I`m for gay rights? Even thought it was an attack, you need to stop taking things so seriously and see that it WAS an attack, and not me actually hating gays..

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #138   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 26 April 2009 - 11:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You must hate gays. ONly one who does would use the word ***g*t. Not veen those who oppose same sex (ie toasty and watch) have used such a disgusting word.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #139   Folcon 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 27 April 2009 - 12:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not sure I even want to enter this firestorm this time, but all I'll say is that I fully support homosexuallity and same sex marriage. Just because two people of the same gender love eachother, is no reason to say that they can't be married, or share the same benifits as a heterosexual marriage. Would it be right for a man to die alone, because the hospital would not allow the man he loves and who loves him back, to be at his side, just because they are not husband and wife? Just because some people argue they are not family? Is it right, that a couple be denied a home because they are gay? The answer to these is no, it isn't right.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am gay myself, I admit it. And the people that know me that I've told, they don't give a damn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But here is a question to consider, for everyone of you that denounces gays and gay marrage, that say that by two men loving eachother, living together, having sex, that all of that is wrong, how many of you look at lesbain porn? Strictly speaking, everyone one of you that does, acodring to the bible, yu would be going to hell, so why the hell do you worry about what other people feel or think.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Frankly, I don't care if you hate me for being gay. I really don't even care what your view on the matter is, as long as you express it with tact, and show respect toward those with varrying view points, and not go calling gays ***s or ******s. That term is vulgar and disgusting, and twisted from its truth. Get it through your heads people, a ****** is a bundle of sticks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #140   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 27 April 2009 - 12:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View Postkillercoz, on Apr 26 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So in it no longer being acceptable for thsi time period, doesn't that mean that other verses can be applied as well? Such as teh one about marriage being only between a man and a woman...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No, because slavery and marriage are two different things. That, and people are actually still getting married nowadays.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And Skidz, how much of the Bible have you read?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [EDIT] Figured I should adress some of this:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 26 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Depends, I suppose. Since slavery nowadays is a taboo, and pretty much any attempt at it in this day and age would result in it's abuse, I'd have to say no, though. YOU said that. Slavery was perfectly acceptable a hundred years ago, and if asked then you would have said justified it because the bible says so, but now that it's tabboo in real life to own slaves you spin it by saying that the bible must be interpreted differently in different eras. Oh no wait, you even saved your ass on that front saying that some things should be viewed differently, and some shouldn't, that way no matter what you're argueing you can just pick what it should be. Damn, you're smart Toasty. If I ever have to win over Obama on why black people are evil and should be exterminated from this planet, I'ma call you Toasty. When I need to stand in front of the world and tell them that aliens are real and that they look like Ewoks and eat your brains, be sure that I will contact you Toasty.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just thought I'd remind you that the definition of slavery back then was different from what is now, and because of that, I would justify it. Not because the bible says so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You really need to quit treating "religious wackos" like they're brainwashed or only do things because the bible says so, because that's not true.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have my own mind, and if the bible told me to do something I thought was morally wrong (like stoning my child), I'd take a step back and read the verse in context to see what it really meant, instead of blindly doing exactly what it said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The bible often uses exaggerated examples to prove a point. Some people take them word for word, and some take them to be exaggerated examples.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #141   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 27 April 2009 - 01:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hmmm... escout's gay? Has that been said before? And Toasty, shouldn't political matters such as marriage be decided by the government and not the church?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Edit: I understand why you personally can't support gay marriage, but if we ignore religion, do you feel its wrong still?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #142   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 27 April 2009 - 02:11 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Guys don't get angry at Drizzy I think we can all agree that Toasty does that to people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #143   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 27 April 2009 - 02:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But if I had Toasty's views i'd be frustrated too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #144   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 27 April 2009 - 04:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View Postkillercoz, on Apr 27 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hmmm... escout's gay? Has that been said before? And Toasty, shouldn't political matters such as marriage be decided by the government and not the church?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Edit: I understand why you personally can't support gay marriage, but if we ignore religion, do you feel its wrong still?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, the whole matrimony is pretty big in religion. Vice versa as well, religion is a big thing in matrimony. So if you ignore religion in this discussion, you're ignoring a major factor, thus it won't be able to prove anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can perfectly understand why a church wouldn't want to marry two men. It's in contrast with their beliefs and values on marriage as a religion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #145   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 27 April 2009 - 05:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But its more than just a Church refusing to marry you, its illegal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #146   Laharl 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 27 April 2009 - 05:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      View Postkillercoz, on Apr 27 2009, 06:35 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You must hate gays.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      forgive me, i didnt realise you represented the entire gay community

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #147   Caael 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 27 April 2009 - 08:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostToasty, on Apr 27 2009, 01:45 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Like I said, slavery back then was an entirely different thing. People were only thrown into slavery if they were on the losing side of a war, or if they sold themselves into it.The Qu'ran (sp?) and all those other holy books aren't a part of the christian religion, so no, I can't say that the world would be a better place if everyone followed their teachings. Mostly because I've never read them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You miss the point, he was saying that you're extremely biased, as are all religions. You may think the world would be perfect if everybody was an extreme christian but so many people would disagree.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View Postkillercoz, on Apr 27 2009, 06:35 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You must hate gays. ONly one who does would use the word ***g*t. Not veen those who oppose same sex (ie toasty and watch) have used such a disgusting word.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh come on. That must mean if I call somebody a jew, I must hate ALL jews in the world.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #148   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 27 April 2009 - 11:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View Postkillercoz, on Apr 26 2009, 09:49 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Before I respond to this trash, I would like to compliment Toasty for being civil in his arguement and not resorting to the bull**** above. I don't believe it is the temptation of the devil as most people aren't tempted to be gay. Next off, I don't intend on going to heaven or hell so I don't believe I'll burn. Though discussed in a disgusting manners, in a way your second sentence has some truth. Our species was designed so that we need a male and female to reproduce, but not necessarily to love.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ah, but what is love?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #149   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • AKA killercoz

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 27 April 2009 - 01:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            View PostLaharl, on Apr 27 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            forgive me, i didnt realise you represented the entire gay community

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Anyone who uses the word F*ggot must have some hatred for homosexuals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            View PostCaael, on Apr 27 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That must mean if I call somebody a jew, I must hate ALL jews in the world.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            No, the word 'kike' would have to be used.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            View PostRegret, on Apr 27 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ah, but what is love?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A deep caring for another. It can be found both in heterosexuals and homosexuals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #150   Mo Cappy Ton 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 27 April 2009 - 05:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have been following this discussion to the best of my ability(sort of), and I'm a bit lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Toasty - I have gathered that you do not believe gays should be able to marry. Correct so far?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              - I am just wondering why not? is it because you believe in the bible and the bible said that is not what God intended for humans?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I am unable to change my tone while typing and what not so I want everyone to know this is without any condescendence, A-holeism, or hating

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              EDIT - I would also like to console Toasty on keeping his cool thoughout this discussion

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #151   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • AKA Spam King

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 27 April 2009 - 09:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View Postkillercoz, on Apr 28 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Anyone who uses the word F*ggot must have some hatred for homosexuals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've always used it in the context of 'general unpleasant person'; nothing else implied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #152   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 27 April 2009 - 10:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I only use it when I'm joking around with my friends, and one of them does something stupid. But I've only ever used ***, not ******. I suppose that doesn't make much of a difference though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But I've never used it to discriminate against someone (that I can remember at least), gay or straight. Certainly not gay though. I haven't actually come across too many gay people, and I have yet to come across one that pissed me off.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostCaael, on Apr 27 2009, 07:52 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You miss the point, he was saying that you're extremely biased, as are all religions. You may think the world would be perfect if everybody was an extreme christian but so many people would disagree.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I never said extreme christian. Infact, if you payed attention, I never said that everyone should be a christian in the first (though that wouldn't be bad either imo).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What I did say, was that the world would be a better place if everyone followed five of the ten commandments (I now know this to be the last six commandments, as I forgot one).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  All of them promote a safer, less angry environment without even requiring that you do anything explicitly christian. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to believe in god, and unless you follow a religion where beating people up or otherwise doing "evil" or illegal things, then following those commandments won't even infringe on your beliefs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They are:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Honor your father and mother (I know some parents are horrible, but generally speaking this is a good rule to follow)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't murder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't commit adultery

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't steal

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't give false testimony (don't lie)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And don't covet anything that others possess


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Another rule which is preached in the bible, but isn't in the ten commandments, is to "keep your body holy" (no drugs, don't abuse alcohol, etc.).


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If everyone followed those simple rules, the world would, undoubtedly, be a better place. If not a bit more boring for some people. Denying that statement is a pretty foolish thing to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View Postkillercoz, on Apr 27 2009, 12:12 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hmmm... escout's gay? Has that been said before? And Toasty, shouldn't political matters such as marriage be decided by the government and not the church?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Edit: I understand why you personally can't support gay marriage, but if we ignore religion, do you feel its wrong still?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Watch answered your first question fairly well, I believe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for the second one, I can't say that I do. Reilgion aside, I just don't see same-sex relationships as natural. I mean, each part of the human body has a specific purpose, and the anus wasn't meant to receive anything. Sex aside, I still don't think it's right because, well, it just doesn't seem right to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't hate gays, and I won't discriminate against them (guys, shut up about the whole "you're discriminating by opposing gay marriage"), but I also won't support their decision.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, I missed this:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 26 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Religion bashing aside, my point in that rant is perfectly relevant. Basically Toasty, at what point do the inconsistencies and ability to change everything to fit your viewpoint get old? And how can you sit here and defend said inconsistencies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And whatever you say Coz. No, Toasty, you`re right, fuck faggots. God intended us to stick our dicks in nice tight vaginas, not gross male ass. So so immoral. You will burn coz, you will burn. God curses you and your orientation, for it is evil and is the temptation of the devil.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The only inconsistencies I see are those that arise from not actually knowing what the bible is trying to say.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Many would call the passage in the bible that Coz referenced hypocritical, as it seems to support slavery.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The thing is, it never said "go get yourself a slave! They're goooood stuff!" It only put guidelines around slavery.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But more importantly, the slavery it was talking about is entirely different from the slavery that many people immiediately think of today.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can clear up a lot of the inconsistencies simply by reading up on history. The rest can be cleared up after you mature and understand a few things better than you did when you were a teenager or young adult. Simply because you'll see things through different eyes.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for your other statement, Coz didn't get after you because he thought you were anti-gay (that's the impression I got at least). He said what he said because you made a pretty immature comment. It doesn't matter whether you were on his side or not, you aren't exactly helping him make a point by throwing mud that doesn't even prove a point. It only attempts to make me out to be a bad guy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you want to make a point, then do it without acting like my 5 year old cousin.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #153   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 27 April 2009 - 10:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    okayokay I know toasty is pretty much holding up the entire debate for his side, and so he has alot of things to respond to, but toasty I would really appreciate it if you could answer this. Not as an attack, I am actually just damn curious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What will you do if your child turns out to be gay?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #154   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 27 April 2009 - 11:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Honestly? I'll still allow him to live under my roof, but I'll likely pray about it a lot. Confronting him about it and trying to get him to change his ways likely won't work. Not when it comes to something of this nature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also, I probably wouldn't let his boyfriend into the house. Dunno.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Either way, you can probably guess that I hope it won't happen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #155   Laharl 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • AKA Dullahan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 28 April 2009 - 04:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View Postkillercoz, on Apr 27 2009, 08:49 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyone who uses the word F*ggot must have some hatred for homosexuals.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        you just used it :b

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        gotta love the way genuine pricks pull the discrimination card to defend themselves

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #156   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 28 April 2009 - 05:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So you'd just be okay that your kid was going to hell? See that's the one thing I don't get about being intolerant (I don't mean that in the bad sense, not so much intolerant as holding certain strict views). I once had a good friend of mine tell me she thought I was going to hell for trying to become jewish, just casually like she had come to terms with it. How can you be ok with the idea of that...I dunno. I guess that's more of a religion thing than a homosexuality thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just I've yet to see anyone in this topic make a valid argument against same-sex marriage that wasn't rooted in it being wrong in God's eyes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Could be because 99% of the people in this topic think it's fine. Which brings up an interesting point; if so many people think it's fine, why isn't it legal? Does the church really have that much of a hold over the american government? Hasn't it been put to vote before?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #157   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 28 April 2009 - 06:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jews can buy themselves into Heaven.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #158   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 28 April 2009 - 07:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              @kate: GSSF doesn't well repersent the population well. A great percent of society think all gays should die, a larger portion believes they shouldnt have good rights and marriage. This is a rather liberla forum. The church does have a lot of influence.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 27 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I've always used it in the context of 'general unpleasant person'; nothing else implied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But whenever using a hate word something else is implied about your views whether yoiu mean to or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View PostToasty, on Apr 27 2009, 11:33 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I only use it when I'm joking around with my friends, and one of them does something stupid. But I've only ever used ***, not ******. I suppose that doesn't make much of a difference though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But I've never used it to discriminate against someone (that I can remember at least), gay or straight. Certainly not gay though. I haven't actually come across too many gay people, and I have yet to come across one that pissed me off.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I never said extreme christian. Infact, if you payed attention, I never said that everyone should be a christian in the first (though that wouldn't be bad either imo).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What I did say, was that the world would be a better place if everyone followed five of the ten commandments (I now know this to be the last six commandments, as I forgot one).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All of them promote a safer, less angry environment without even requiring that you do anything explicitly christian. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to believe in god, and unless you follow a religion where beating people up or otherwise doing "evil" or illegal things, then following those commandments won't even infringe on your beliefs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              They are:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Honor your father and mother (I know some parents are horrible, but generally speaking this is a good rule to follow)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't murder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't commit adultery

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't steal

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don't give false testimony (don't lie)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And don't covet anything that others possess


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Another rule which is preached in the bible, but isn't in the ten commandments, is to "keep your body holy" (no drugs, don't abuse alcohol, etc.).


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If everyone followed those simple rules, the world would, undoubtedly, be a better place. If not a bit more boring for some people. Denying that statement is a pretty foolish thing to do.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Watch answered your first question fairly well, I believe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As for the second one, I can't say that I do. Reilgion aside, I just don't see same-sex relationships as natural. I mean, each part of the human body has a specific purpose, and the anus wasn't meant to receive anything. Sex aside, I still don't think it's right because, well, it just doesn't seem right to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't hate gays, and I won't discriminate against them (guys, shut up about the whole "you're discriminating by opposing gay marriage"), but I also won't support their decision.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also, I missed this:



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The only inconsistencies I see are those that arise from not actually knowing what the bible is trying to say.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Many would call the passage in the bible that Coz referenced hypocritical, as it seems to support slavery.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The thing is, it never said "go get yourself a slave! They're goooood stuff!" It only put guidelines around slavery.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              But more importantly, the slavery it was talking about is entirely different from the slavery that many people immiediately think of today.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You can clear up a lot of the inconsistencies simply by reading up on history. The rest can be cleared up after you mature and understand a few things better than you did when you were a teenager or young adult. Simply because you'll see things through different eyes.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As for your other statement, Coz didn't get after you because he thought you were anti-gay (that's the impression I got at least). He said what he said because you made a pretty immature comment. It doesn't matter whether you were on his side or not, you aren't exactly helping him make a point by throwing mud that doesn't even prove a point. It only attempts to make me out to be a bad guy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If you want to make a point, then do it without acting like my 5 year old cousin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Yes, if people followed those 6 rules the world would be a better place, its the following of the whole bible that bothers me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • What watch said- are yous aying that if it was legal you would be okay with it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • I know its basically impossible to eliminate a great part of your reasoning and still have a view.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Last paragraph and seperate sentence- exactly


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #159   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 28 April 2009 - 07:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View Postkate, on Apr 28 2009, 12:05 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Could be because 99% of the people in this topic think it's fine. Which brings up an interesting point; if so many people think it's fine, why isn't it legal? Does the church really have that much of a hold over the american government? Hasn't it been put to vote before?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wasn't it put to the vote recently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #160   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 28 April 2009 - 09:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View Postkate, on Apr 28 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So you'd just be okay that your kid was going to hell? See that's the one thing I don't get about being intolerant (I don't mean that in the bad sense, not so much intolerant as holding certain strict views). I once had a good friend of mine tell me she thought I was going to hell for trying to become jewish, just casually like she had come to terms with it. How can you be ok with the idea of that...I dunno. I guess that's more of a religion thing than a homosexuality thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just I've yet to see anyone in this topic make a valid argument against same-sex marriage that wasn't rooted in it being wrong in God's eyes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could be because 99% of the people in this topic think it's fine. Which brings up an interesting point; if so many people think it's fine, why isn't it legal? Does the church really have that much of a hold over the american government? Hasn't it been put to vote before?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's a conspiracy, obviously... :P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah.... no. Too be honest, I find the 'sex is too reproduce, thus being strictly for being between men and women' argument a lot better than pro-gay arguments that have been presented.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for my stance on gay marriage, it should be tolerated, not per se legalised. It's only a juridical difference, in real life it really doesn't matter. But it's one of those compromises both sides can be happy with.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #161   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 28 April 2009 - 03:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    View Postkillercoz, on Apr 28 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But whenever using a hate word something else is implied about your views whether yoiu mean to or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah. That you hate someone. >_>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    View PostSir Walsingham, on Apr 29 2009, 01:55 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As for my stance on gay marriage, it should be tolerated, not per se legalised. It's only a juridical difference, in real life it really doesn't matter. But it's one of those compromises both sides can be happy with.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If people were happy with gay marriage being a crime we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd hardly call that a compromise anyway, considering that the church hasn't actually lost out on anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #162   Caael 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 28 April 2009 - 03:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      View PostSir Walsingham, on Apr 28 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's a conspiracy, obviously... :P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah.... no. Too be honest, I find the 'sex is too reproduce, thus being strictly for being between men and women' argument a lot better than pro-gay arguments that have been presented.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      As for my stance on gay marriage, it should be tolerated, not per se legalised. It's only a juridical difference, in real life it really doesn't matter. But it's one of those compromises both sides can be happy with.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah but reproduction now takes a back seat to pleasure which to most people is the main reason for sex, so the arguement is pretty much invalid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #163   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 28 April 2009 - 04:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Really? to most people the main reason for sex is reproduction? Is that why something like two thirds of girls have had sex by the time they're 16? For reproduction?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        No. Having sex for a reason other than reproduction is not against the law. It is only frowned upon by the church. Once again, church should be separate from state.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So saying that the "sex for reproduction, not pleasure" argument is better than any pro-gay one, is not logical. I said there were no arguments against it that weren't rooted in religion. Sex for reproduction is rooted in religion (see above). So I'm still waiting for a non christian argument against it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And if it were put to the vote and the majority said it should stay illegal, then they're hypocrites given how many of them have sex without the purpose of makin' babies. Unless they have other reasons than God for keeping it illegal in which case I WOULD LOVE TO FREAKIN HEAR WHY.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        no more running around in circles. it's dumb. also hypocrites go to the lowest level of hell, so...y'know...double jeopardy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #164   Caael 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 28 April 2009 - 05:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View Postkate, on Apr 28 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Really? to most people the main reason for sex is reproduction? Is that why something like two thirds of girls have had sex by the time they're 16? For reproduction?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No. Having sex for a reason other than reproduction is not against the law. It is only frowned upon by the church. Once again, church should be separate from state.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sounds like you interpreted my post the wrong way. Read again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #165   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 28 April 2009 - 06:17 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            lol except I wasn't responding to your post. high fives though

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I'd probably avoid this confusion if I weren't too lazy to use the quote button

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 28 April 2009 - 06:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The reason why the church frowns upon sex purely for pleasure, is the fact that it can then be more easily abused. Teen pregnancy isn't exactly a good thing in my book, and it exists solely because people use sex for pleasure.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Religiously, sex was made for reproduction, and the pleasure gained from it is "a gift from god that should not be abused."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's pretty obvious what the results of sex abuse are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View Postkate, on Apr 28 2009, 04:05 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So you'd just be okay that your kid was going to hell? See that's the one thing I don't get about being intolerant (I don't mean that in the bad sense, not so much intolerant as holding certain strict views). I once had a good friend of mine tell me she thought I was going to hell for trying to become jewish, just casually like she had come to terms with it. How can you be ok with the idea of that...I dunno. I guess that's more of a religion thing than a homosexuality thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just I've yet to see anyone in this topic make a valid argument against same-sex marriage that wasn't rooted in it being wrong in God's eyes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Could be because 99% of the people in this topic think it's fine. Which brings up an interesting point; if so many people think it's fine, why isn't it legal? Does the church really have that much of a hold over the american government? Hasn't it been put to vote before?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              No, I wouldn't be. That's why I'd pray about it. Like I said, confronting him directly would more than likely fail miserably. Therefor, from a religious point of view, the next best option is to just pray about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #167   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 28 April 2009 - 06:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                To put things in perspective, historically, marriage ceremonies (and with it, sex) were indeed thought of often purely in terms of economic and/or social obligations. People married based on their ability to bear children, raise them, educate them, and to provide a union of wealth or economic contributions together. The concept of attaching 'love' and marrying for it is a relatively new phenomenon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #168   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 28 April 2009 - 07:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  okay, nifty, but then shouldn't the laws change accordingly? Just as the laws changed to give blacks and women the vote. The time has changed, and there's not reason to keep an outdated law in place.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 28 April 2009 - 09:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am simply providing context here for Toasty's point. I do support gay marriage and agree that it is only the most logical step forward for securing equality for all. However, it can't be underscored enough what Toasty said regarding the 'abuse' of sex and how it's been glorified in recent times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #170   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 28 April 2009 - 10:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ah, I just remembered an article I read somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One main reason why I'm against gay marriage, is because it opens the doors for other marital related changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Some gay people somewhere (can't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was in a state that legalized gay marriage) thought that since gays could get married, then why couldn't people have more than one wife/husband? Why can't brothers marry their sisters? Why can't uncles marry their nieces? Why can't fathers marry their daughters? And other things like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm opposed to gay marriage because it goes against my religion, sure, but I'm also against it because it then makes people think, "hey, if gay people can get married now, then I/[insert person] should be able to marry [insert person/thing here]!" and other things like that. I believe that the bible so strictly prohibits romantic relationships outside of "boy meets girl" because it can lead to some pretty bad stuff. Just as the abuse of sex, alcohol, and a number of other things can lead down bad roads.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And generally, I also don't think it's natural to have any other relationship than the man/woman variety.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #171   Folcon 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 28 April 2009 - 10:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 28 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To put things in perspective, historically, marriage ceremonies (and with it, sex) were indeed thought of often purely in terms of economic and/or social obligations. People married based on their ability to bear children, raise them, educate them, and to provide a union of wealth or economic contributions together. The concept of attaching 'love' and marrying for it is a relatively new phenomenon.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        this can also sorta tie in gay adoption too. In my view, whose busines is it to say that two men, or two women, that love eachother and are generally good people, as in don't drink or do drugs, whether they would make good parents. Is it right to deny a gay couple the right to adopt a child just because they are gay, even if they would make perfectly good parents, feed the kid, teach the kid, protect the kid as any parents would, yet most adopiton places that I know of, or at least hear about, won't allow gays to adopt. Perhaps the only fear they, the adoption people or the religious people that rant about it, have, is that by being raised by a same sex couple, the child will grow up to be gay too. Who gives a ****. And it's mostly a big deal with men, women can just get a doner and not worry about it. Or maybe the fear is, if two gay guys adopt a kid, that they'll molest him or her. its BS.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        sorry for getting off topic there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #172   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 28 April 2009 - 10:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In some cases it's because foster homes are looking for parents who can offer both the father and mother roles. Not all homosexual couples can offer that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'll give you that not all straight couples fit the profile either, but naturally, having both a male and female in the relationship, they have an upper hand.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But I'll also give you that whether the proper figureheads are there or not isn't always the case in those situations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #173   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 28 April 2009 - 11:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            okay there we go, that's something I'll give you. If gays can get married than why not have more than one husband/wife etc. True dat. That's the same reason why marijuana hasn't been legalized in canada, and why the government is having such a hard time defining the rules about things such as stem cell research. It can have a ripple effect. However laws are to manage a society and that society's, as a whole, view of right and wrong. Polygamy is still viewed by most people as unacceptable, due to the monogamous nature of humans (although that's really a culture thing because biologically we should be polygamists), up to and including now. Hence why it's illegal. Gay marriage was viewed as wrong up until now, but now that society has changed to accept gays in so many different ways (no longer taboo, basically the biggest trend in youth, tons of shows with gay couples etc) the laws should change to accommodate this. If ten years from now there's a bajillion different people in stable relationships with more than one person, and everyone comes to see it as okay, then the laws should be changed then too. NO MATTER WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS. I really can't stress that enough. The church should hold no influence whatsoever over the government.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            but there you go. Excellent non-religious point. touche.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #174   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 29 April 2009 - 12:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Biologically it may be better for us to be polygamists, but mentally/morally/socially/whatever, it isn't. Usually, when two people are in a relationship, they consider the other person to be "theirs" and no one else's. When a guy is two timing, and the girl finds out, she's usually disappointed/traumatized/whatever. Besides that, I'd imagine that it'd be pretty difficult to give two women equal amounts of attention. It's hard enough to do that with my two dogs, who are constantly trying to get attention, but I'd imagine it could be much worse when it comes to humans. Humans are far more mentally complex than dogs, and are generally social creatures that desire attention (usually).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not to mention that it would exponentially increase the rate at which AIDS would be contracted. The more people that a single person has sex with, the higher chance they have of contracting and spreading the virus.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If everyone only ever had sex with one other person, AIDS would be nearly non-existent.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Anyway, I can see how it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for the church to have some influence over government, as it effectively puts control into the hands of a few instead of the hands of many.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              However, probably the most effective way to preserve morals would be to give the church more influence.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So there's benefits to both sides, depending on how you look at it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #175   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 29 April 2009 - 01:00 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View Postkate, on Apr 29 2009, 12:49 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Really? to most people the main reason for sex is reproduction? Is that why something like two thirds of girls have had sex by the time they're 16? For reproduction?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                No. Having sex for a reason other than reproduction is not against the law. It is only frowned upon by the church. Once again, church should be separate from state.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So saying that the "sex for reproduction, not pleasure" argument is better than any pro-gay one, is not logical. I said there were no arguments against it that weren't rooted in religion. Sex for reproduction is rooted in religion (see above). So I'm still waiting for a non christian argument against it.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Biologically yes. The fact that humankind gave sex a pleasure purpose is an unicum as far as nature is concerned. Toasty said something alike, but that was kind of ignored.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View Postkate, on Apr 29 2009, 07:01 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                okay there we go, that's something I'll give you. If gays can get married than why not have more than one husband/wife etc. True dat. That's the same reason why marijuana hasn't been legalized in canada, and why the government is having such a hard time defining the rules about things such as stem cell research. It can have a ripple effect. However laws are to manage a society and that society's, as a whole, view of right and wrong. Polygamy is still viewed by most people as unacceptable, due to the monogamous nature of humans (although that's really a culture thing because biologically we should be polygamists), up to and including now. Hence why it's illegal. Gay marriage was viewed as wrong up until now, but now that society has changed to accept gays in so many different ways (no longer taboo, basically the biggest trend in youth, tons of shows with gay couples etc) the laws should change to accommodate this. If ten years from now there's a bajillion different people in stable relationships with more than one person, and everyone comes to see it as okay, then the laws should be changed then too. NO MATTER WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS. I really can't stress that enough. The church should hold no influence whatsoever over the government.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                but there you go. Excellent non-religious point. touche.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's one of things that bothers me. Half of the time it seems like being gay is just a passing fad. True that the ancient Greeks already had gay sex, but nowadays it's more of a political hype instead of a sincere political agenda. Back in ancient Greece it wasn't a political/social issue at all. "Just do what you like, as long as it's willing from both sides, we'll tolerate it."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That said, Miss California has great boobs that compensated for a terrible answer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #176   Toasty 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 29 April 2009 - 01:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wouldn't call it a terrible answer, but that's me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #177   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So wait; you're saying gay couples can't get married because any sex they have will be purely for pleasure... you might as well illegalise all teen relationships, then.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #178   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 29 April 2009 - 06:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Muffled sounds-

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #179   Drizzy Drake 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Isnt America the land of the free Toasty?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #180   Caael 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View PostDrizzy Drake, on Apr 29 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Isnt America the land of the free Toasty?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          That is all.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy!"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          - Zack De La Rocha

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #181   Moonear 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Not sure if this has been posted before, but it's worth the watch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #182   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 29 2009, 04:03 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So wait; you're saying gay couples can't get married because any sex they have will be purely for pleasure... you might as well illegalise all teen relationships, then.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Fund it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #183   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 30 April 2009 - 10:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                View PostToasty, on Apr 29 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                One main reason why I'm against gay marriage, is because it opens the doors for other marital related changes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Some gay people somewhere (can't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was in a state that legalized gay marriage) thought that since gays could get married, then why couldn't people have more than one wife/husband? Why can't brothers marry their sisters? Why can't uncles marry their nieces? Why can't fathers marry their daughters? And other things like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm opposed to gay marriage because it goes against my religion, sure, but I'm also against it because it then makes people think, "hey, if gay people can get married now, then I/[insert person] should be able to marry [insert person/thing here]!" and other things like that. I believe that the bible so strictly prohibits romantic relationships outside of "boy meets girl" because it can lead to some pretty bad stuff. Just as the abuse of sex, alcohol, and a number of other things can lead down bad roads.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is almost a repeat of the same argument used when the ban on interracial marriage was first lifted. Ardent opposition to allowing whites and blacks marrying also believed it would "open the door" for incest and bestiality and other acts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is a classic example of a slippery slope logical fallacy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #184   Ironsight 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 30 April 2009 - 01:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostGolden Legacy, on Apr 30 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is almost a repeat of the same argument used when the ban on interracial marriage was first lifted. Ardent opposition to allowing whites and blacks marrying also believed it would "open the door" for incest and bestiality and other acts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is a classic example of a slippery slope logical fallacy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, now we're letting gays get married. So it has kind of carried out...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #185   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 30 April 2009 - 02:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The loaded implication behind your comment is laughable. If you're going to link these two separate movements into a universal phenomenon, would you prefer that whites and blacks not be allowed to marry if it apparently "leads" to allowing other groups to get married?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #186   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 30 April 2009 - 03:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hurr, I highly doubt incest and bestiality will became legal any time soon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #187   Someone Else 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 30 April 2009 - 04:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What's wrong with incest and beastiality?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        #188   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 30 April 2009 - 05:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1255/awesomesmall.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #189   Saturos S. 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 01 May 2009 - 01:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            View PostSplit Infinity, on Apr 29 2009, 01:03 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So wait; you're saying gay couples can't get married because any sex they have will be purely for pleasure... you might as well illegalise all teen relationships, then.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well that's good, because I'm not saying that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #190   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 01 May 2009 - 05:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              View PostSir Walsingham, on Apr 29 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Biologically yes. The fact that humankind gave sex a pleasure purpose is an unicum as far as nature is concerned. Toasty said something alike, but that was kind of ignored.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sure sounded like it. Probably because I have no idea what a unicum is. :/

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #191   Neon 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 04 May 2009 - 12:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It always surprises me when gay marriage suddenly comes back up as a hot topic. I think it's about time we, as a culture, progressed past this ridiculous debate. Marriage is the union of two lovers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #192   Caael 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 04 May 2009 - 01:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  View PostNeon, on May 4 2009, 07:37 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It always surprises me when gay marriage suddenly comes back up as a hot topic. I think it's about time we, as a culture, progressed past this ridiculous debate. Marriage is the union of two lovers.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ...are you god?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  #193   Golden Legacy 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted 04 May 2009 - 08:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sums it up perfectly.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    #194   Quacnar 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted 04 May 2009 - 08:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @ Neon: I find it odd that if you replaced "two lovers" with "a man and a woman" your entire view would clearly change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @ GL: So true.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      #195   Neon 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yes but as a culture we have mostly moved past the debate of homosexuality but for some reason everyone gets fired up when someone suggests they should be able to get married, like it's some right we must keep from them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And yes, the biblical debate is the only way you can oppose it, and sorry but I think it's terribly flawed. We're very accepting of many religions and cultures and people so why must the concept of marriage remain the same as in the bible?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          View PostNeon, on May 5 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yes but as a culture we have mostly moved past the debate of homosexuality but for some reason everyone gets fired up when someone suggests they should be able to get married, like it's some right we must keep from them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I wouldn't say Australian Culture is supportive of Homosexuality.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          #197   kate 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ...that's odd, because new zealand sure is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            #198   My Best Wishes 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I can't really comment on that, I think my total time in NZ is 3 or 4 days or something around that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's just my view on the different places I've lived in Australia, on a similar note though people view Australia as a tolerant, anti-racist country, when it's the opposite.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              #199   Split Infinity 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I've never witnessed a racial slur in my entire life here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe I'm just sheltered. >.>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                #200   Legolastom 

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted 05 May 2009 - 05:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  @ Neon: I find it odd that if you replaced "two lovers" with "a book and a dog" your entire view would clearly change.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  @ GL: So true.


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