The Next Step: Need Opinions And Feedback
#1
Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:21 PM
The two projects in question are the GSS revamp and GSW. I intend to complete both of these, given enough time and resources, but I need to decide which one to do first. Given the unpredictability of life, there always remains a chance that I may not even reach the second project, or even that I may not finish the first project. So I want to start with the project that holds the highest chances of success and is beneficial to the community. Following I will describe the pros and cons of each (in list form).
(Post continued in first comment/next post)
#2
Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:21 PM
- Work has already been done over the past 4+ months, including roughly 2 dozen manhours of data entry. The overall site design has already been designed (by Andrew Hefter, aka Andross) and paid for. This forum skin is derived from the site design.
- The GSS website is the public face of our community, and is where visitors first land. The initial impressions of the website can affect whether that person decides to stay and joins the community/forums. Also, the site is what search engines index, which means a better site will rank better on the search engines and be easier to find.
- Over the years, random, useless files have accumulated in GSS's webhosting account. When I moved the site and forums to our new host last month, I only uploaded the most important files. As a result, some pages are not working properly, and would require a non-trivial amount of work to seek out the files that are missing. In addition, several new features can only be done on a new site, such as the GS Music Player (based on Cindy (from GS Realm)'s GS soundtrack project) and the reopening of a browse-able GS Sprites archive.
- The new site backend that was under development (codenamed "Zephyr") will allow for access to the raw data for other purposes. All data would be available as XML files (in addition to the standard HTML), which people can use to create their own sites, games, or whatever. Uses of this data is limited only by people's creativity.
- Plans and contacts were already made and established for translating the new version of GSS into other languages. So far we had begun work with Spanish and French translators, with a tentative Dutch or German translator. There is also a strong Polish GS community, so that would be another target language. By making the site international, we open our community to a large influx of people and greater interactivity.
- I already pay for the web hosting account for GSS, and I own all the software necessary to make a successful website. There is almost zero additional investment required to revamp the website, other than the time required.
- The revamp process can be a full community effort. There are many aspects, including web design/coding (HTML/CSS), data entry, sprite ripping, and translation. This community has a number of talented web developers, including my co-admin Nick, who can help out and make my load a bit lighter. Virtually anyone can do data entry, and I've already had four people start helping me with this over the winter. Data entry is very tedious, and it is hard for one person to maintain interest for long periods of time, so it goes faster if you have more people helping. This community also has some talented sprite rippers, such as Blink and others, who will help me expand the sprite archive and gather videos/animations of summons, psynergies, and other game elements. This would not be a solo project, but a true community-wide effort.
- This process would be excellent practice for developing a new website, if/when the community decides on another game that we would like to cover. In fact, the technical infrastructure created during the revamp should greatly accelerate the process of building a new game fansite in the future, leading to a potential future gaming site "network."
- All of the content generated in the revamp process, especially images and ripped sprites/animations, can be used in the process of making GSW or other future fangame projects.
- Once completed, the new site will need very little maintenance, and will stand as a legacy to the GS fan community, and our forums and community in particular. Unlike a game, the website is a (mostly) one-time affair, and when completed should not need to be worked on again.
- A website can almost surely be completed in the next two to three months, before I begin college in the fall. There is a definite timeline, and website development is a well-explored domain.
- The biggest con is obviously that any time spent on this project is time not spent on GSW or other projects. The converse would also be true if GSW is the chosen project.
- A lot of hype has been made about this project over the past few years, and some members have stuck around in the hope that one day it may again see the light of day. We have released server tests and beta versions, so I know that it is possible to do this project. But various factors have conspired to make a liar out of me time and time again. I do want to fulfill my promises, but the truth is that these are uncharted waters for the most part, and I simply can't predict how long things will take.
- As I explained in one of the latest GSW news posts, the technology for this project is finally falling into place. The one significant hold-up at this point is Adobe's Apollo, the technology that will allow GSW to be downloaded and used on Windows, Mac, and Linux. But Apollo is still in alpha right now, and won't be released for all platforms until late fall or winter of 2007. That means GSW alpha/beta releases would be Windows and Mac only for awhile, and even those versions would not have all the features of the final Apollo. This is only one part of GSW though, and all the rest of the software elements are ready to go.
- Over the past two years I've invested upwards of $150USD in books and training material to familiarize myself with Actionscript (the programming language in Flash) so that I could tackle this project. I feel confident in my abilities, even without the help of AveneR (my former partner).
- While it is possible for me to do this alone, it is much harder and there are fewer sources of motivation to continue working. The Actionscript community is miniscule in comparison to the web design community, and so it is near impossible to find anyone with talent to help me on this project.
- The reason I have always wanted to do GSW, and the reason why I think it has attracted so much interest, is that it represents the hope of another GS game. Even a fangame would satiate some of us, and GSW would give us (the community) the opportunity to show our love of the series to Nintendo and Camelot, hopefully prompting another official game. Other GS fangames such as War of the Adepts have shown the potential, and I have always wanted to capitalize on that.
- In a more selfish respect, GSW has allowed me to "anchor" many of you to the site, keeping you here in the hope that it may one day become a reality. I don't mean this as deception, because I fully intend to make that come true, but it has been an interesting consequence. However, I think making the forums themselves more interesting can give people reason to stay, which is why I put more effort into the recent forum revamp.
- The biggest hesitation I have had lately, and which was voiced recently on the forums by another member, is that of the audience. This forum is relatively small, with well under one hundred active members. How long will even these members stick around? If it takes me four to six months to release a game, how many of you will still be around? And more importantly, how long will you stay after its release? I think GSW has come to mean different things to different people, and I'm not sure that I can meet everyone's expectations and create a world that people want to continue returning to. To really do justice to the project, I would have to really add alot of features before the first public release to ensure that people would be bored/underwhelmed and leave.
- Games are constantly evolving and growing, meaning a never-ending development process. As many of you have noticed, I go through periods of the year where I don't have time to work on personal projects, and I'm not sure how the game world would respond to my absence for so long. As with the last point, will people stick around and make it worth all the development time and energy? I'm not yet convinced that they will.
- One of the last major hurdles which will need to be overcome is that of the server. While I have all the server software, it needs server hardware to actually run on. I don't mean a home computer, but a real server in a real web hosting datacenter. Unfortunately, most cheap hosts do not allow you to run your own software, and dedicated servers or VPS hosting plans are pretty expensive ($60-500+USD/month). For the past server tests I had an old friend donate some space on his business server, but he has since gone out of business and lost the server. So unless someone has connections to someone with a server, the project will end up either in lingo or on an extremely slow home-based personal server.
As this huge posts has shown, there is alot of information to consider. I've tried to enumerate as many factors as possible, but please remind me of anything I might have missed.
I am looking for your opinions and some feedback over what you would prefer or recommend. Like I said at the beginning, I intend to do both, but need to decide which one to do first, knowing that it is possible I may not get to the other in the near-term. If for nothing else, I want you all to understand my reasoning and the amount of thought I have put into whatever decision I end up making. It's probably clear what direction I am leaning in, but I want to hear from you first before I decide the direction of the site and community.
#3
Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:28 PM
#4
Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:39 PM
Thats my opinions anyway. I think that the next generation of GS fans (albeit few and far between unless a version 3 comes out) would appriciate a functioning, fully stocked, helpful fan site than a program they're unlikely to want to use/appriciate to the full extent.
#5
Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:48 PM
Basically, you do the back end of the site first, and then the new (temporary) staff members can simply add content to the site, because it isn't that hard. I'm sure there are members here who are willing to help (plus it's summer, so even more time)
That way, you can work on GSW, while simply supervising the revamped site.
#6
Posted 16 May 2007 - 03:54 PM
In fact, I already tried doing that this winter, and it didn't really work at all. I made a little bit of progress on the site but virtually no progress on GSW. That's what I'm trying to address now.
#7
Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:16 PM
#8
Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:20 PM
#9
Posted 16 May 2007 - 05:21 PM
Honestly guys, GSW will benefit those of us that are already here, but in the long run, getting the site revamp out of the way first seems the wisest idea, because it could attract a larger community which will then take interest in GSW. :unsure:
#10
Posted 16 May 2007 - 05:40 PM
The GSS site is a more community-based effort, like you said. It is the solid product of the dedicated, remaining fanbase of the series, and a testament to their legacy. Establish the final version of the site, (which is what brought all of us together).
That said, I also love the point you made about the experience we'll get with the new site. No doubt that once we succeed with that, the possibility of having new fan-sites (a "network") of gaming is, in itself, very valuable to the future of our community; as a revamped site, covering a more extensive collection of games (and thoroughly at that) will yield a more long-lasting audience...
And perhaps even enough incentive for GSW (or a GSW-like project, in the future).
#11
Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:17 PM
Long story short, go for the site revamp first.
#12
Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:43 PM
First of all, work on GSW if this Idea is alright. If not, go for the site first, since you'll be more likely to get that finished since it's already had a lot of work put into it (I know GSW has a lot of man hours in it as well, but I believe the site will be more beneficial). But most of all, a revamp for GSS would be more benificial. I'm just trying to figure out a way to get more than one thing done, because the more the merrier, right? :unsure:
Anyway, you should assign a team of web-developers, spriters, content writers, and what not, put someone in charge of them (if Nick will be helping with GSW, then assign a Mod, if not, I'd suggest him), and let them work.
Instead of implimenting all of the stuff at first, just have them make the bare-bones of it, and review it when you're finished with GSW to see if it looks good. As far as styling and scripting goes, set up a standard for coding and have everyone use "div" tags. For content, give an example layout of how the info should be displayed, and have that as a set standard. The spriters should be assigned certain sections of the game to rip so they don't waste time doing extra work, and other than that, I think they know what to do.
Once GSW is finished, review the work and deem it either acceptable, or in need of some work. Then you and the web developers can start in with sewing it all together.
Now if you'd rather be overviewing the progress the entire time, I'd do the revamp now, and GSW later.
If we revamp the site and let people who come here know that we have a pretty decent project going on, they'll join to find out what the buzz is all about. Of course, even if GSW is impossible to finish after revamping the site, we can still get to work on makeing a "network" (which is technically already underway with the AW site).
#13
Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:57 PM
Anyways, I'd like to thank you, Max, for asking all of us for advice and including us in your decisions. You've done a great job as the head of our community and GSS as a whole over these years.
#14
Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:00 PM
#15
Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:09 PM
But Max, I really believe it has someone who is capable of handling the site revamp. Although I really believe (somehow) you are a perfectionist, so I guess things might not live up to your expectations and you may do it all over again...
#16
Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:28 PM
#17
Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:32 PM
#18
Posted 16 May 2007 - 08:38 PM
#19
Posted 17 May 2007 - 08:10 AM
I think perfecting the main site and forums is more important than gsw. As cool as gsw is, it is more of a dream - much harder to give it all the features you and the community want - while the revamp is obviously an entirely reachable goal. You know what you want, it's just time constraints getting in the way.
Also, gss is the anchor for gsw. You don't want to labour away for months on a game then turn around and discover that those most interested have left and the site you wanted to house it has died.
Also, gsw has always, to me at least, been an extension of the site and the community. It would be better to make the site better and complete what you started then to work on the game instead.
If only one of them could be completed, I'm sure you would agree GSS is more important.
#20
Posted 17 May 2007 - 11:43 AM
The GSS site revamp will NOT bring as many new members as people have been saying. You're revamping a site about games that are 4 and 6 years old. If there ever were fans of the games they have all turned to playing newer RPG's and have forgotten about the GS games.
I think GSW would bring more new members. I, for one, am a member who has joined this forum because of GSW. But I had an idea that wouldn't limit GSW only to people who have played the games. Maybe it could be called something else. Something without Golden Sun in the name, but everything could still be based off Golden Sun. You don't have to be a fan of the games to like the sprites and graphics GSW will use.
Another thing is that I KNOW GSW won't be created if it isn't made before the revamp. You all say it isn't a priority because it wouldn't be very popular and it wouldn't bring many new members to GSSF, but it will be even less so in a year, or two years, or more...
That's just my opinion though.
#21
Posted 17 May 2007 - 12:48 PM
However, my question is this; what is our target audience for GSW? If we remove indication of Golden Sun from the name, are we basically trying to "market" it to anyone and everyone? I'm actually not against what you said (again, I think it's a good idea to consider), but I'm just curious about what you mean.
That said, I was just going to add one more suggestion regarding the GSS revamp.
Why not really push forward the incentive of it being a community effort? My idea was to create an addition sub-forum (below where the current GSW forum is) that would allow us to contribute work. Think about it - we could have a sub-forum for sprites, and you could put a topic that details exactly, and specifically, what you need - let's say, for example's sake, it's a Djinni sprite.
Then, anyone and everyone can give it a try, posting their examples - you, Max, could look through all the submissions and decide (or we can even vote about which ones we favor).
You yourself posted this:
Quote
- This process would be excellent practice for developing a new website, if/when the community decides on another game that we would like to cover. In fact, the technical infrastructure created during the revamp should greatly accelerate the process of building a new game fansite in the future, leading to a potential future gaming site "network."
And what better way to do this then with sub-forums dedicated solely towards this goal?
#22
Posted 17 May 2007 - 01:02 PM
Golden Legacy, on May 17 2007, 08:48 PM, said:
The target audience at this moment are GS fans, right? But why should it remain like that? I mean, everyone is saying that the GS community is too small for GSW to be successful, so why not make it seem like everyone can use GSW and enjoy it? The people that may use it but haven't played the games won't join these forums, but it's still a good way to keep GSW alive and active. And I don't think the point of GSW is to get more people to the GSS forums anyway.
#23
Posted 17 May 2007 - 04:15 PM
#24
Posted 17 May 2007 - 04:34 PM
Besides, GSS is the face of our community. Where are people going to learn about GSW? From the site, of course. A better site will mean that GSS will appear more often on Google and therefore more people will learn about the site, and therefore, more people will learn of GSW.
That's why the site revamp is a higher priority.
#25
Posted 17 May 2007 - 05:08 PM
By contrast, GSW is, as was mentioned numerous times, a never-ending project. The only time it will end is when people stop using it. And I still do intend to make GSW, even if that means starting in late July or August (I will be away for three weeks in June). It will still happen, but I think the merits of getting the GSS revamp done outweigh the inconvenience of the two month delay.
#26
Posted 17 May 2007 - 05:11 PM
I'd say that if it wasn't at all possible to do both at the same time somehow, go for the GSS revamp.
And Aqua, I understand where you're coming from. The longer it takes, the less people will be interested in it. But think of it like this:
GSW is a very fancy, elegant boat being built that many people want to ride on (and for free might I mind you, which makes it even more appealing), but it's harbor (GSS) is run-down and in need of maintainance. People aren't going to want to go to an old, run down harbor just to see an unfinished boat. But they will go to a clean, entertaining, well kept harbor that houses an unfinished, yet promising boat. See where I'm coming from?
The harbor will be more likely to attract people quicker. Otherwise, we'll finish the boat, but only a few people will be interested until much later when the harbor is finished. So we bring in people sooner, then keep them here with the (hopeful) promise of GSW, which will in turn attract even more people.
Though it may not turn out exactly like that, it's a reasonable place to start. And that's my reasoning for revamping GSS first.
#27
Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:50 AM
Also as others as stated for themselves, GSW brought members here, myself included. And while that brought us here, we all stayed during the downtime in it, 3 tests since 04 right, not the greatest record ever but we stayed. Also I would love to see a finished GSS site, even when I joined it still had flaws in it.
I think I sidetracked a bit but yea. Go with the revamp.
#29
Posted 19 May 2007 - 08:13 AM
I don't know if Max has had any previous contact with GSR but its an idea at least.
#30
Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:09 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure that there is much that GSR has that the new GSS won't. With the except of some of the fan-fiction and fan-art which she has posted (which I can't take without the original authors' permissions), the revamp should cover everything she has and I have combined plus more. I will evaluate things again down the line before launch, but I'm not sure what else is to be gained. GSR has two healthy forums, last time I checked, and I don't think either would be open to a forum merge or anything like that.
GSR looks a bit cleaner than GSS right now, but that is one of the main points of the revamp. In the end, I think GSSv2 will surpass GSR's quantity and quality of content, and that the community as a whole will benefit. Her hosting over there at Gamespy is secure, so I don't think that she really has any intentions of moving the site, so I don't see what would be in it for her and the GSR community.
#31
Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:34 PM
Also, not to sound forceful or anything, but what about this idea that I posted earlier:
Quote
Then, anyone and everyone can give it a try, posting their examples - you, Max, could look through all the submissions and decide (or we can even vote about which ones we favor).
Basically, to create a forum called something like "GSS Revamp/Resources", divided into sub-forums about all the different areas that needs to be contributed in (i.e. Sprites, Data/Content Entry, Web Design/Coding, etc.), and to create topics and offer opportunities for the entire GSSF community to contribute, as per my quoted idea above.
#32
Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:45 PM
#33
Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:56 PM
Sure, it will help with some noobs looking at the main page, but it will do nothing for our community.
#34
Posted 19 May 2007 - 06:25 PM
Max, on May 19 2007, 02:45 PM, said:
Oh, my fault Max, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that's what you already implied.
And PDM, the point is to make GSS the defining Golden Sun fansite. At the very least, adding in additional languages is for the sense of "completeness" in making it a true, final GSS archive (though I still don't see why it wouldn't help our community... more languages means more people get exposed to it, etc.)
#35
Posted 19 May 2007 - 06:49 PM
PDM, on May 19 2007, 02:56 PM, said:
Sure, it will help with some noobs looking at the main page, but it will do nothing for our community.
It wouldn't do anything for our community yes, but remember, not only English speaking humans play or discuss Golden Sun.
#36
Posted 20 May 2007 - 02:26 AM
But if we translated the forums, due to some complications in language barriers, grammar nazis will have looser footing. ;) *coughsplitcough*
#37
Posted 20 May 2007 - 02:42 AM
#38
Posted 20 May 2007 - 07:14 AM
We have our site, and we have our forums. Sure people leave at times, but recently we've gained alot of new members. And noone can really leave this place forever. :)
#39
Posted 20 May 2007 - 08:33 AM
I am almost finished creating the backend control panel for the new site, and I will probably make an announcement later today with details on how everyone can help.