[Someone Else]

I've heard rumors that the next (Wii) Zelda (has supposedly been in development for over a year) will be different than what we've seen before. And no, I'm not talking about Link's Crossbow Training.

So I've been thinking. Many critics will tell you that Zelda's have become predictable. But if you read, these same critics will say that they don't like how Majora's Mask (and to an extent, Wind Waker) tinkered with a formula many people love.

Without a doubt, Zelda needs something fresh. A Wii control scheme will be inevitable, but as far as gameplay goes, something should be done.

Discuss your ideas for changing up a tried formula.

[Golden Legacy]

Good topic WD. I've had my own thoughts about the Zelda games - they're amazing, no doubt, but even hardened Nintendo fans can agree that the formula is becoming a little too familiar and predictable.

There are two things that I would incorporate into a newer Zelda experience:

Item usage - it's a given fact that Link will gain some great new item in a dungeon, use it to defeat the boss, use it once or twice more to get to the next area, and then not use it again. It's pretty disheartening at times to see even the most innovative items put to rest and not used again after they've been retrieved.

Another thing I would do is change the way boss battles are fought, and this goes back to using items - why not have different strategies in defeating a boss? Why not have a choice in how to take down a boss, maybe using an item you got a few levels back and want to put it to use? Basically, instead of the whole "find item in dungeon, face boss, find out how to use item against boss, slash with sword, rinse and repeat" - mix it up a bit to something like "find item in dungeon, face boss, use item against boss, use another item against boss, boss falls, slash with sword, repeat with different item/strategy".

The bosses are phenomenal, but rarely do we ever see variety in taking them down.

[Ironsight]

Sadly, the only Zelda games I have are the two Oracle ones. But even in those, the same thing happened. Most of the bosses were effortless to defeat. But there were a few that had me tied up for a bit. The Rock Face-thing is a prime example of what they should do. To defeat him, you had top use almost every item you had aquired in the game so far. Whenever you did enough damage to him with that item, he would trade arms, and you would have to figure out his new weakness. It took me forever to find out the last weakness, but aside from the frustration, I was impressed by the creativity of this monster. Whoever imagined him deserves a pat on the back.

[Aquamarine]

One thing: Link shouldn't be the main character. Zelda should.

Just think about it before you diss the idea! She could be very different to Link. Instead of items she could use a wide range of magic. I wouldn't give her any melee weapon like the swords Link always wields. You would have to battle mostly from afar and would have to do lots of hit-and-runs.

[Caael]

What GL said. Although some bosses may be hard, there's 100% chance that you're going to need the item you got in the temple before.

Another little thing I would like in Zelda is a kill count, and a monster log. Like Castlevania. Then you could see which item works best against an enemy, and their HP, like that mask in WW. Kill counts would be fun, and say every 100 kills you get, you get 100 rupies from some guy.

And also they need more swords. Most of the games you get a crap sword to start, then you get the master sword. Why? Why not add a hench sword for plowing through enemies, a short sword for quick slashes, a rapier for armoured enemies and the most tricks for confusing, a katana, because they're awesome. They need moar swords.

Elemental abilities would be cool. PH had a few of these, with the power gems, but they need to expand on it a lot more, like spell levelling up. Not by using it lots, but like PH, by collecting more. Moar magic would be cool, but you could also imbue weapons with it. Like with

Bow
Courage, arrows would curve towards enemies slightly
Power would set them alight
Wisdom would fire 2 arrows for the price of one.

Hookshot/Grappling Hook
Courage would shoot and retract faster
Power would make it hurt enemies, instead of stunning them
Wisdom would increase the range

Boomerang
Courage: Same as Hookshot
Power: Same as hookshot
Wisdom: Locks on to more targets

Bombs
Courage would fire them out of a launcher
Power would increase the blast range
Wisdom would make them remote, like in MC

Hammer
Courage would let you swing it like a sword (but really slow of course)
Power would make shockwaves on the ground
Wisdom would make freeze items

Shield
Courage would let you use an item while holding the shield
Power would parry attacks if you guard just as the attack hits you
Wisdom would make it larger ( not upgrade, just larger)

[Nosferatu]

Hmm. I read in an interview in a Nintendo Power I believe, that the next Zelda games will try to stray a bit further then what we're used to. So it could be interesting to see what they come up with.

[Caael]

It's all very linear at the moment. Even if you're stuck on a part, it doesn't take long to get back on track. There's nothing affecting the story, you can answer no to every question you are asked and the game will still end the same. I'm hoping for multiple endings on what choices you make in game. Like in TOS, the things you do affect what happens in the game, and ultimately change the ending

Spoiler

Zelos dying

so I hope it's not so linear this time.

[Golden Legacy]

Earth Dude, on Nov 2 2007, 02:58 PM, said:

It's all very linear at the moment. Even if you're stuck on a part, it doesn't take long to get back on track. There's nothing affecting the story, you can answer no to every question you are asked and the game will still end the same. I'm hoping for multiple endings on what choices you make in game. Like in TOS, the things you do affect what happens in the game, and ultimately change the ending

Spoiler

Zelos dying

so I hope it's not so linear this time.

There is one great example of this in Twilight Princess. (MAJOR SPOILER IF YOU HAVE NOT BEATEN THE THIRD TEMPLE)

Spoiler

It is the scene after beating the Water Temple where Link encounters Zant, and Midna ends up nearly dead after Zant exposes her to the light spirits - Link ends up in the Twilight Realm needing to take Midna to see Princess Zelda, who saves her

.)

That was a brilliant scene in Twilight Princess, and one of the ones that kept me on the edge of my seat to complete the task. However, there was only one outcome - it would have been interesting to have it that

Spoiler

Midna would die if you didn't get to Zelda in time

, and have the story continue as such.

[Firemblemaniac]

Heh. I beat TP, WAAAAAYYYYY back. Now i'm on the phantom hourglass...

[Someone Else]

Water Dude, on Nov 2 2007, 09:16 AM, said:

One thing: Link shouldn't be the main character. Zelda should.

Just think about it before you diss the idea! She could be very different to Link. Instead of items she could use a wide range of magic. I wouldn't give her any melee weapon like the swords Link always wields. You would have to battle mostly from afar and would have to do lots of hit-and-runs.

Link has the name "Link" for a reason. He should always be the only controllable character.

I like GL's idea, but I think that it might make bosses easy if they multiple vulnerabilities... maybe not if it's done right, but who knows?

Sometimes I almost think that perhaps Zelda should also stray away from the dungeons being the meat of the game's story progression. It's always, go to a dungeon, obtain the item, use the item on the boss to defeat it and get the story-related item and a whole new heart container: do this for the rest of the game until credits. Thoughts?

I really liked how Phantom Hourglass had one huge, main dungeon that you would go through a little bit at a time, and completing the other dungeons would help you go through this main dungeon with the items that you got. I'd like to see something similiar done in the future.

[Aquamarine]

Wind Dude, on Nov 3 2007, 04:21 AM, said:

Link has the name "Link" for a reason. He should always be the only controllable character.

But the game is called The Legend of Zelda goddamnit! Link would be important in the game of course, like Zelda always is. And personally, I don't feel this "link" that Nintendo wants when you play a Zelda game. I can't link myself with a guy in a green tunic who wields a sword and shield, so that linking part means nothing. Oh, and he's not called Link. His name is whatever you choose when you start the game.

[TheEnglishman]

There has been a Zelda game with Zelda as the main character. It was an awful game on the CD I though.

[Golden Legacy]

I got to replay Wind Waker recently with a little down time from my studies, and it prompted me to revive this topic.

In addition to what we've discussed before, I think the Zelda games could use more interaction with the characters in the overworld. Not unlike Termina in MM, but make it feel like a living breathing world with dynamic relationships. Twilight Princess had Midna, who I absolutely adored, but it was shocking how static Hyrule felt. You couldn't even interact with 70% of the folks in Hyrule Castle Town.

Another example were the Desert and the Snow Mountain locales (I forget their exact names). You went to those areas for the next dungeons, and that was it, no reason to ever return.

For a huge overworld there simply wasn't much to do.

EDIT: And if all else fails, Zelda can always go this route.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXonIgnSWIo...a4ff3e46da4c0be

[Toasty]

EFF YEAH! ZELDA WITH GUNS!

Seriously, that'd pretty badass. Just imagine blowing up buildings with a rocket launcher. :)

[Caael]

Unless Zelda has some pretty drastic changes, I doubt i'll be playing the next one.

Linear as ****, hardly any replay value, and for what replay value there is, no motivation to do it whatsoever.

Hyrule just feels empty. What's the point in having the crowded town of Hyrule if all people do is walk around a pre-set path infinitely? You never really connect with any of the characters, and there's very little to make you want to save Zelda.


Majoras Mask was the best thing that ever happened in the Zelda series. Original, amazingly fun to play, loads of replay value, all the characters interacted with you and you actually cared about them (Lulu the Zora woman for example), interesting gameplay mechanics and several solutions to a problem with the addition of masks, instead of just "use the item you found in the dungeon".

I absolutely adored Majoras Mask, and I hope to see another Zelda game set in Termina.

[Someone Else]

Why another Zelda in Termina in particular?

[Drizzy Drake]

But then it would start having Hyrule syndrome. Same place every time, but different, you know?

Caael, you're dumb. I vote for a new place alltogether. Not Hyrule, or Termina.

[Golden Legacy]

I think Caael meant something at least as different as Termina. Use it as a stepping stone, an example of where ingenuity and trying something bold can achieve a refreshing gaming experience.

[Laharl]

MM was effectively just OoT with masks and a time limit.

Caael, on Nov 16 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

amazingly fun to play

the core gameplay mechanics are a carbon copy of OoT what makes it so much more fun to play exactly?

Caael, on Nov 16 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

loads of replay value

again, where is this? there is no motivation for the player to replay the game. you make the exact same decisions visiting the exact locations doing the exact same quests. the Wind Waker is the only 3D Zelda with any crediable form of replay value

Caael, on Nov 16 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

all the characters interacted with you and you actually cared about them (Lulu the Zora woman for example),

wrong again Caael. its not so much interaction as "do this for me and i will give you an item/heart piece/some rupees". The NPCs are so wooden and shallow its pretty pathetic if you got attached to any of them.

Caael, on Nov 16 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

interesting gameplay mechanics and several solutions to a problem with the addition of masks, instead of just "use the item you found in the dungeon".

its only replaced by "use the you found in the dungeon or a mask", there remains only one solution just more methods that you have to sift through to find it maintaining the principal flaw in Zelda dungeon design.

people praise MM for how it stood out yet at the time only its long lost twin OoT was the only other 3D Zelda available. WW does just as much variation from the OoT formula and reaps none of the rewards

[Caael]

Laharl, on Nov 18 2008, 08:19 PM, said:

MM was effectively just OoT with masks and a time limit.
the core gameplay mechanics are a carbon copy of OoT what makes it so much more fun to play exactly?
Just because you didnt necessarily find it fun doesn't mean I cant. The masks add a lot of variety to gameplay, especially with the different approaches to situations using the 3 different forms.

again, where is this? there is no motivation for the player to replay the game. you make the exact same decisions visiting the exact locations doing the exact same quests. the Wind Waker is the only 3D Zelda with any crediable form of replay value
There were loads of sidequests in MM, iirc. You could get them from anybody and some of them were pretty interesting, such as the Kafei one where he'd been turned into a kid.

wrong again Caael. its not so much interaction as "do this for me and i will give you an item/heart piece/some rupees". The NPCs are so wooden and shallow its pretty pathetic if you got attached to any of them.
I lied about that point.

its only replaced by "use the you found in the dungeon or a mask", there remains only one solution just more methods that you have to sift through to find it maintaining the principal flaw in Zelda dungeon design.
But unlike other Zelda games, most of the dungeons in MM were relatively fun. Okay, there was a ***** bit in the water temple, but the water temple is crap in all Zeldas.

people praise MM for how it stood out yet at the time only its long lost twin OoT was the only other 3D Zelda available. WW does just as much variation from the OoT formula and reaps none of the rewards
The story was unique, the setting was pretty cool, there was loads to do and it was fun. I dont give a **** if you dont like it, I do.

Responses in bold.

[Laharl]

*facepalm*

notice how my post was in the third person, i wasnt attacking you personally.

i dont think MM is a bad game by any means...

[David]

Perhaps they could make Zelda more like the Fable games, as far as interaction, gameplay options, and story lines. Although, I have to say that if they incorporate guns into Zelda (short of the cannon from WW), it will pretty much ruin it. If I want to play a shooter, I'll play one of the millions on the 360.

[Drizzy Drake]

@ Laharl-Okay, well Final Fantasy 7 is Final Fantasy 2 with different characters. And Halo 3 is Halo with new guns. And Mario Super Mario Bros 2 is Super Mario Bros with new levels.

Of course MM has the same mechanics as OoT.

[Laharl]

Neophyte, on Nov 19 2008, 04:50 AM, said:

@ Laharl-Okay, well Final Fantasy 7 is Final Fantasy 2 with different characters.

er....no it isnt. and you know it isnt. what a piss poor example.

my point is, if MM uses the OoT game engine and the same core gameplay mechanics, surely it cant be a great as the "in the know" Zelda fans think it is when the first thing they compare it to is OoT

[Drizzy Drake]

Sorry, FF8 is FF7 with new characters..

[Laharl]

wrong again

[Drizzy Drake]

the gamplay was very similar, so please shut up.

im gonna say this now, if there's another 7 floor water dungeon, i'm snapping my disk in half.

[Golden Legacy]

As someone who passionately loves FFVIII, I can definitely say it is not a rehash of FFVII. If anything, it probably is one of the more unique games in the series, but I've only played a few.

With regards to Zelda, I think the entire team should be refreshed. Toss out Eiji Anouma and bring a new director with a fresh perspective.

[Someone Else]

Here's my (new?) list of ideas...

• More towns. Hyrule feels so empty with, at the best, three towns to visit. Make some towns that don't have any relevance to the story and serve no purpose other than giving you the pleasure of going there. Have a few sidequests in each, some nice shops, and heart pieces in each to make the visit worth it.
  
  
• Get rid of the Master/Four/Phantom/Whatever Sword. I know the legendary sword that banishes evil is a sort of a theme in Zelda, but we all get it already. I want Link to be able to get and use whatever weapons he wants, be it an axe, halberd, flail, whatever. After all, I believe that Link is a weapons expert. In doing this, I believe Zelda will have some real replay value, and combat will become less stale.
  
  
• Get rid of kid Link. Seriously... and keep the games a bit on the dark and sort of more realistic side a bit longer. TP didn't quite accomplish this except in art style, but it was still pretty intriguing and I want to see it explored for a bit longer.
  
  
• Put less of a strain on the gameplay for dungeons and more on doing other things outside of the dungeons to progress the story. Pretty self-explanatory. I'm not saying to ditch the dungeons altogether as we all known and love Zelda for them, but I don't think we'd say no to expand the games a bit more outside of them. How about we do it like MM, where we connect with the characters in town and learn about them? Get them involved somehow?

I'll end it there. I have some other ideas but those I've listed are the main ones.

[Toasty]

Someone Else, on Nov 20 2008, 08:55 PM, said:

• Get rid of the Master/Four/Phantom/Whatever Sword. I know the legendary sword that banishes evil is a sort of a theme in Zelda, but we all get it already. I want Link to be able to get and use whatever weapons he wants, be it an axe, halberd, flail, whatever. After all, I believe that Link is a weapons expert. In doing this, I believe Zelda will have some real replay value, and combat will become less stale.

Just as long as it doesn't go way overboard or anything. As long as it's kept to say...a dozen weapons or so, I'm fine. Maybe only two of each class? (i.e. sword/lance/axe/hammer/knuckles/etc.) Otherwise it'll start to feel like an RPG instead of an adventure game.

[Someone Else]

I agree, which is why I think Zelda should keep a linear storyline and not have level ups and crap. Mostly what I'm thinking is that each weapon will have a different style of moves so people can pick whatever feels best to them, or works for whatever situation.

[Caael]

Just please dont turn this into a mindless slash em up.

I'd like varied combat, but not to the degree of soul caliber. Unlocking 7 moves throughout the game in TP isn't enough, you need more.

I also wish actions you made during the story would affect the ending, like after a certain temple, you could either save some innocent people, or get a load of money. Choices like these would be littered throughout to give a clear "good/evil" perspective.

I'd also like more sidequests that dont boil down to "collect X amount of Y and i'll give you Z" Proper like "this dragon is terrorising our town, go kill it" quests, ones that give you motivation to do.

[Toasty]

But I LOVED collecting butterfly pendants in WW. :P

[Laharl]

Caael, on Nov 21 2008, 07:46 AM, said:

Just please dont turn this into a mindless slash em up.

it already is....

very few enemies actually require you to use your brain

[Someone Else]

Caael, on Nov 20 2008, 11:46 PM, said:

I also wish actions you made during the story would affect the ending, like after a certain temple, you could either save some innocent people, or get a load of money. Choices like these would be littered throughout to give a clear "good/evil" perspective.

No, keep a linear story. The black and white moral thing is being done to do death in other games, and this sort of thing just wouldn't work with Zelda without seriously turning gameplay mechanics inside out. The end product wouldn't be Zelda. I still want Zelda to be Zelda, I just want some new stuff to shake things up a bit.

Someone Else, on Nov 20 2008, 08:55 PM, said:

• More towns. Hyrule feels so empty with, at the best, three towns to visit. Make some towns that don't have any relevance to the story and serve no purpose other than giving you the pleasure of going there. Have a few sidequests in each, some nice shops, and heart pieces in each to make the visit worth it.
  
  
• Get rid of the Master/Four/Phantom/Whatever Sword. I know the legendary sword that banishes evil is a sort of a theme in Zelda, but we all get it already. I want Link to be able to get and use whatever weapons he wants, be it an axe, halberd, flail, whatever. After all, I believe that Link is a weapons expert. In doing this, I believe Zelda will have some real replay value, and combat will become less stale.
  
  
• Get rid of kid Link. Seriously... and keep the games a bit on the dark and sort of more realistic side a bit longer. TP didn't quite accomplish this except in art style, but it was still pretty intriguing and I want to see it explored for a bit longer.
  
  
• Put less of a strain on the gameplay for dungeons and more on doing other things outside of the dungeons to progress the story. Pretty self-explanatory. I'm not saying to ditch the dungeons altogether as we all known and love Zelda for them, but I don't think we'd say no to expand the games a bit more outside of them. How about we do it like MM, where we connect with the characters in town and learn about them? Get them involved somehow?

• Give enemies more moves! 90% of the enemies in Zelda charge at you and whack you predictably. Maybe one or two use moves like Link. Give MORE if not all of the melee weapon using enemies moves like the players have. I'm saying jump attacks, blocks, dodges, possibly even give them more than one weapon to switch between. Also give them moves that the player doesn't have. Make the player think on their feet.
  
• Get some voice actors... Not every word in the game has to have a voice over, but cutscenes at least would be nice. Nintendo have enough money to do this, so why not do it?
  
• Orchestrated music please. It'd really go a long way. Only Nintendo seems to be able to get away with using MIDI all the time. Everybody else has moved on to having their game's music orchestrated. Again, Nintendo certainly have the capacity to do this.

[Legolastom]

Laharl, on Nov 19 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

er....no it isnt. and you know it isnt. what a piss poor example.

my point is, if MM uses the OoT game engine and the same core gameplay mechanics, surely it cant be a great as the "in the know" Zelda fans think it is when the first thing they compare it to is OoT

It uses the same graphics and a few core gameplay mechanics, and the controls as OOT but changes the story, world and how you interact with the everything completely.

Have you even played it? Because I have, I even have all the mask (I swear if you get them all you get a different ending... or am I imagining this?) I loved the world and the characters I mean to be honest the only thing I didn’t like was the first three dungeons.

But I don’t understand what your point is, if you have played the game you can see the clear differences between it and OOT, I mean everything outside of moving between dungeons and to an extent the dungeons themselves are the same a OOT but the sidequests, character (Going past appearances), setting, overworld and story are all different, kind of like WW.

[Laharl]

completed it several times, i've already stated how similar the characters/sidequests etc. are to OoT, but im criticising Zelda, so i must be wrong

and yes you get a different ending if you get the Couple's Mask