[Toasty]

This feud has been going on for thousands of years according to the Christian bible, and being Christian, I believe it. Now of course both of them are chucking bombs, but when you think about it, who started chucking them first? Palestine. Israel ( or us, can't remember) gave them the land that they asked for back, and in return, the start launching missles into Israeli cities. Now sure, Palestine is losing lives, but so is Israel. And Israel is only killing Palestinians in self defense. Palestine threw a punch, and Israel threw one back.

For the religeous side of this, the bible says that the feud started between two half brothers. The older ones father wasn't married to the mother, so when the younger boy was born, and was favored by the mother and her husband ( the husband was favored in Gods eye), the older brother grew jealous. The older brother grew up to make the nation of Palestine, while God blessed the younger brother who grew up to make the nation of Israel. Now I don't know the bible like the back of my hand, but I know it went something like that. There feud, according to the bible started thousands of years ago at that point, and since, Palestine has been trying to conqer Israel. Now that's the biblical version, and I don't expect all of you to believe every word since you may not believe in God, but God said that they would always be at war with eachother to some extent, and the bible predicted the war that is going on now. Not to every detail, but predicted it none the less.

Comments and arguments are welcome, and please NO FLAMMING.

[My Best Wishes]

I think that the Jews originally occupied Israel then left for whatever reason (if someone could elaborate). Then after WW: II the Allies 'removed' the Palestine’s from Israel and gave it back to the Jews. I think that’s correct.

I think both are severally in the wrong. Although the Jews have suffered a lot there’s no reason to act the way they do*.

I actually think it's a little immature. If they could sit down, at the U.N or wherever they feel like and just talk then there would be no more pieces in the news about the latest suicide bombing by a Palestine in Israel.

*-The media always represents them as the bad guys.

[Platinum Sun]

I'm christian, so I believe in the moral theory behind the Bible. However, I'm a big history buff and I don't believe in its historical accuracy. The Bible isn't as infallible as it says it is.
There was conflict yes, but Israel didn't exist as a country until the end of WWII. What all this shooting is most immediately about is that land was taken from Palestine to make room for Jews that were displaced by the war. That's why the Palestinians started shooting. The ared forced that were formed in Israel were pledged to protect the refugees that moved in. (I know, refugees going in to Israel?) So they started shooting back.
There is no shuch thing as a long term solution, but stopping the shooting would be nice; and resolving immediate conflicts such as this could do that.

[Mysterious Adept]

I, like many people believe that the jews deserve israel, according to the bible, God gave the jews the land of israel. so frankly it should be theirs. Now i haven't been following up on this conflict, but i am a religious person. To me there shouldn't be any fighting, Israel should belong to the jews ( and if the word "jews" is an insulting term, then i am sorry for using it)

[Golden Legacy]

Palestine.

Now, I can't accurately justify the religious or historical background of the region yet (I'll save that for a future post). But for now, I believe the Palestinians have been terribly misrepresented to the public, and likewise the Israelis.

Why is it that the media always hides Palestinian deaths, but when a single Israeli casualty occurs, it becomes breaking news? Why is it when a suicide bomber kills one or two Israelis, he is condemnded, but when an Israeli soldier shoots at the heads and eyes of many young Palestinian children, it is either not shown to the public, or somehow, the Israeli soldier is always seen as "defending" himself?

Why can't the world see that Israel, with the most powerful air force and arms, is responsible for the destruction of countless Palestinian villages? Why is it that Israel has unjustly imprisoned over ten thousand Palestinian civilians, but when just two Israeli soldiers are captured, Israel is suddenly justified in sending in a huge military response?

[Eugine]

GL, I admit Israel has abused their military might in the past few weeks, killing hundreds of civilians in Lebanon in their campaign on disarming Hezbollah, but consider this retribution for the past crimes the terrorists/enemies of Israel placed on Israel for thousands of years.

Hezbollah and the other terrorists groups wouldn’t stop their pitiless killing unless a tenacious military might is placed on them, and trust me this war extends outside of the Middle East, and this is why the international community isn’t forcing the war to stop. Disarming Hezbollah ultimately weakens Iran, Syria and other terrorist states as well as brings fear to disgusting groups like Al Qaeda, which threatens security in your own country everyday.
In wars, civilians will die for the greater good. Israel has tried to lessen the civilian death total by sending fliers warning villagers of air strikes, I myself can’t see why they remain.

Quote

Why is it that the media always hides Palestinian deaths, but when a single Israeli casualty occurs, it becomes breaking news?

First of all, I assume you watch American television. Most Americans are Christians, or well, hate the terrorists in the Middle East. As far as they care, Palestine is the wrong one and deserves to punish because of groups like Hamas. Put on a Lebanese television and I’m sure you’d be seeing the opposite.
Secondly, the Palestinians praise the deaths, Israel doesn’t. The main reason most of those states exists is just to “wipe out Israel from the map”. I don’t know about you, but when someone sends this threat I’d do whatever it takes to prevent it. An old Bible proverb is “do unto others as you’d like them to do unto you.” Israel is finally doing what the terrorists do, rightfully and many people are condemning them.

Quote

Why is it when a suicide bomber kills one or two Israelis, he is condemnded, but when an Israeli soldier shoots at the heads and eyes of many young Palestinian children, it is either not shown to the public, or somehow, the Israeli soldier is always seen as "defending" himself?

First of all, like I said Israel made sure they sent fliers to cities, those who put up a resistance will unfortunately and sadly pay, but you can’t condemn Israel when civilians themselves doesn’t really care if they die as long as they bring terror to Israel.

Quote

Why can't the world see that Israel, with the most powerful air force and arms, is responsible for the destruction of countless Palestinian villages? Why is it that Israel has unjustly imprisoned over ten thousand Palestinian civilians, but when just two Israeli soldiers are captured, Israel is suddenly justified in sending in a huge military response?

I pretty much explained that already.

[Golden Legacy]

Eugine, I'm not taking this out of thin air. I have blood and family in the region. I've been to the region, and I've viewed the conflict from both sides. I, unlike others, have not been mindlessly accepting what the American media shows. Yes, people here are mostly against the Palestinians, but do people go out of their way to see the truth from both sides?

Now then, you talk about Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups. Fine, they exist. No denying that. But at the same time, why are the Palestinians automatically associated with these terrorist groups? People use the terms "Palestinian" and "terrorist" synonymously, they don't give these people a chance.

Now, consider this: Why was it that dictators in the past (Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and others) embraced at first? The reason is people need to feel protected. When the Palestinians see that their government can't prevent Israeli attacks, they turn to the only things they can do to protect their homelands. If that means throwing rocks, fine. If that means showing support for a "terrorist" group in order to protect their lives and their homeland, then so be it.

I'm sure you know the proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". They see groups like Hamas and Hezbollah fighting against their hated enemy, Israel. What are they going to do? They can't condemn or oppose them, because doing so would leave them vulnerable!

Listen to me everyone. I recognize and agree that BOTH sides have done wrong. Both sides have done merciless acts of violence. But what I do NOT accept is how people simply refuse to acknowledge the possible motives behind the actions, and how people don't seem to understand that when a people is forced in a dire situation, they NEED to survive, one way or another.

[Platinum Sun]

I officially concede the title of "Most realistic guy here" to GL. There are very few people in the region that do what they do because they are "Evil." They all have excellent justification for the attacks that they make, and little recourse in doing so. Our (The US+other western interlopers) intention in dealings with the region is wrong. We're trying to stop what the majority believes to necessary and justified attacks, that's why everyone hates us. We need to cure the disease, not fight the symptoms.

[Eugine]

GL, then why do you complain? If the people in the Middle East side with the terrorists group rather than try to remove them they'd obviously have to embrace the consequences of their actions.

And by siding with them, you honestly can't blame Israel for their deaths, by siding with the enemy of Israel I'm sure they knew the consequences well before they joined. They honestly don't care about their life so why should you bother? I was watching a special on BBC World on the war there, one civilian said, not quoting, death to Israel even if it involves taking my life.

[Golden Legacy]

Thank you Platinum Sun, that was very well said.

Eugine, on Aug 4 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

GL, then why do you complain? If the people in the Middle East side with the terrorists group rather than try to remove them they'd obviously have to embrace the consequences of their actions.

And by siding with them, you honestly can't blame Israel for their deaths, by siding with the enemy of Israel I'm sure they knew the consequences well before they joined. They honestly don't care about their life so why should you bother? I was watching a special on BBC World on the war there, one civilian said, not quoting, death to Israel even if it involves taking my life.

Eugine, I can't even imagine why you're talking like this. These people aren't randomly opposed to Israel, and these people are NOT resigned to simply dying because their enemy is Israel. They fight because it's a cause worth dying for.

And that's the problem there. What is causing them to resort to this? Who is ultimately forcing the Palestinian people to be prepared to do anything for their nation? Do you honestly think that Palestinians DON'T want to live? Israel is robbing them of any option of living their lives the way ANY human would want; without fear, without worry.

Eugine, I've seen multiple documentaries on this myself. Palestinians may kill, but Israelis murder and torture. They do things that COMPLETELY DE-HUMANIZE the Palestinians. It's beyond life and death. I even feel the word 'inhumane' is justified.

Now, beyond that last paragraph (which I will support with mutiple links; I already have some bookmarked), Eugine, all I'm asking you to consider is that the Palestinians have NO OTHER WAY; the reason they are willing to die for their nation is because, ONLY then will they ever have the hope of seeing their land liberated. And who is causing them to be this way? Who is giving this as the ultimatum for the Palestinians?

Israel.

[Eugine]

GL, I know it sounds mean, but that's just the hard truth to it. That's how the world leaders see it and how it’s really is. The world is filled with power corruption, military conquest, and economic superiority. Before you were able to use the religion excuse (since both the Koran and Bible believes Jerusalem is their people’s holy land) but both countries have placed aside their religion and now wants land and power.

You honestly can’t say the Palestinians are being oppressed because that’s just how they live, most are born in the conflict and accept it as their sole purpose on earth; accepting the norm rather than changing it. Whenever they side with the international community and oppose those terrorists groups I’d say that they’re being oppressed, right now I’d just say they’re living their life in the way they seem whole.

[Platinum Sun]

I don't know about that. Being shot at day and night counts as "opressed" in my book.
And opression isn't always that simple. Silent opression is the essence of terrorism. They're being opressed in the fact that their decision about who to side with is influenced by fear.

[Golden Legacy]

Platinum Sun, on Aug 4 2006, 05:12 PM, said:

I don't know about that. Being shot at day and night counts as "opressed" in my book.
And opression isn't always that simple. Silent opression is the essence of terrorism. They're being opressed in the fact that their decision about who to side with is influenced by fear.

That is my counter-argument, Eugine. Thanks again, Platinum Sun, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Eugine]

Well, if they're being opressed they are being opressed by their own flesh and blood as well. Do you honestly believe that's a state that wants to change when they aren't even united themselves?

[Platinum Sun]

Eugine, on Aug 4 2006, 05:16 PM, said:

Well, if they're being opressed they are being opressed by their own flesh and blood as well. Do you honestly believe that's a state that wants to change when they aren't even united themselves?

I'm not sure what you're saying. Yeah there are very pronounced divisions between races, nationalities, and especially Islamic sects, but how does that relate to their opression by terrorism?

[Eugine]

Terrorism exists simply because some cannot accept the fact we are from different races and beliefs... Perfect example is Iraq, Iraq is divided with two religions, each race terrorise the other with bomings and what not. The international community is struggling to maintain security in Iraq because they are divided themselves. That's the samething in Lebanon, the people are divided between Hezbollah and the Lebanese government.

Racial and religious divisions bring about terrorism, that's the main reason why it exists infact. Unless, they can accept the fact that their beliefs and colours are different and unite (like the USA you live in, filled with different racial barriers, yet you guys communicate) themselves, unity with other countries is about hopeless, especially Israel, since their beliefs, race and thoughts are conflicting to the max.

[Platinum Sun]

Ok GL. Bail me out here. Eugine has me pinned down. We cant stabilize conflicts occuring between countries that aren't unified. We can't deal with countries that have a fragmented population. We can't do it because we have no experience doing so. (We've been doing it for awhile, but we'd need a sucessful effort for it to count as experience.) Even if we can work out a deal with the governments of these countries, there are many people within them that don't listen to their respective governments. Well I'm out of rhetorical ammo. OMG I agree with Eugine... It burns!

[Golden Legacy]

The reason is that here in the US, race and religion are not major guidelines in society. That is true of the entire West, in fact. Civilization is based on secular, non-religious values there.

But elsewhere, and especially in the Middle East, religion is, for the most part, the standard by which people live. There is no clear distinction between the two, religion dictates the moral principles of life. That is one reason (but not the only reason) that terror and oppression occurs, when people differ on their account of how life is and the moral principles that go along with it (such as having opposing religions).

When you say "unite", Eugine, you mean it, by default, the way it exists in Western civilization. But it's different there. By "uniting" in that sense, they would effectively have to forfeit the justification of their faiths.

Ultimately, there is no compromise in religion and race.

EDIT: Just read Platinum Sun's post... Essentially, yes, the West can't understand the extend to which religion and morals dictate life elsewhere. That is why, to us, a simple solution is always Hey, how about a cease-fire? And guess what, we'll throw in an international peacekeeping force too.... The fact is, it's not that simple, and this is why the USA and others aren't capable of truly bringing peace to the region.


And now, I have to leave. I too am getting tired from this... but we'll definitely resume this soon.

[Platinum Sun]

Ok, I've reloaded the cotton in my ears. Allow the figurative gunfight to continue!

I just have to underline that difference in the importance of religion that GL mentioned. Here, if you look at official forms, more and more people are leaving the religion spot blank. For some reason, religion loses clout and significance in modernized countries. (Most likely because science tends to conflict with the miracles mentioned in most religious texts.) A lot of people say that they're religious, but it's obvious that they don't practice much, and it's not that important to them.
I'm christian, but I'm hard-pressed to name six of the apostles. I asked a Jewish friend of mine once. He only knew four commandments, and Judaism is one of the more demanding religions. The fact is: no one here is willing to die for their religion, so we resolve such disputes with words. However, in the Middle-East the extreme and absolute importance of religion is ingraned since childhood.
Being part of a religion there also means you have to believe everything your religion teaches. That's not true here. I believe in the Bible's moral teachings, and the validity of using it as a guide to life decisions. Do I believe all the stuff about the miracles and smiting and God telling people to do stuff for him? No way! But this is America. I'm allowed to have partial faith in my religion. Not so in the Middle East. They have to believe everything or it's considered sacrelidge, and if their religion is indeed the one and only ultimate truth, that means all other religions are wrong.

My fingers are turning purple, more on this tomarrow.

[Toasty]

I myself believe everything the Bible teaches. From Jesus rising from the grave, to pillars of fire in the sky. I admit, I don't follow Christianity as well as I should, but I do go to church, and I do believe god exists. And GL, the Palestinians in the middle east don't care what happens to them as long as Israel is wiped out. Now I know that there has to be people in Palestine that don't agree with that, but a lot of them do. And about their survival, their military is the one fighting, and the military is lead by their leader. And I know for a fact he isn't sufering at all. He also doesn't care about his people. When he asked for money to help his people, we gave it to him. He then took it and spent it on a palace in France for his wife. I'm not saying all Palestinians are evil, but quite a few are. And the ones that are, only want Israel gone.

[Golden Legacy]

And don't tell me that Israel doesn't want the Palestinians gone out of what they claim is their homeland. The only difference is that Palestinians feel it is a cause worth dying for, while Israelis have the luxury of the most advanced military in the world, and thus do not feel as urgent.

(Not an elaborate post compared to all the other ones I've posted in this topic, but ah well).

EDIT: Added in official poll.

[My Best Wishes]

Don't both countries actually have a claim to the land through the 12 tribes of Israel?

I believe god made a convenmant to Abraham or Jacob or someone, pretty much saying this land will always belong to your childern, and when the Jew's left some other tribe moved in or something.

Pretty vauge I know but hopefully you guys understand what I'm trying to say here...

And could someone add a option to the poll if you believe both are wrong?

[Golden Legacy]

I took care of it, Watch.

And also, people forget one thing; Abraham, Jacob, even Moses; they are also prophets in Islam!

People automatically assume that those prophets are a strict part of only Jewish faith, but Muslims (and thus Palestinians) also believe in them. I'll look into this a bit further, but definitely, based on religious roots, the Palestinians have just as much right (and in my opinion, more right) as the Israelis to the land.

[Platinum Sun]

Totally, that's why this conflict is so huge. Jesus, Mohammad, and Moses all went to the same high school man! Of course there's going to be a lot of people that want to own God's backyard.

[Toasty]

First off, the Palestinians aren't in Israel, they're in the Gaza Strip, and because we finally gave them the Gaza Strip, they are close enough to fire into Israel. And in the bible, God promised the land of Israel to what is now the Isralis, so according to religion, the land belongs to Israel. And what makes this more relavent, is that the bible predicted the war that is going on now in Israel. And, of course, the bible has been around for a very, very long time. Before the battle that is going on right now started.

[Golden Legacy]

Mr.T, on Aug 9 2006, 12:30 AM, said:

First off, the Palestinians aren't in Israel, they're in the Gaza Strip, and because we finally gave them the Gaza Strip, they are close enough to fire into Israel. And in the bible, God promised the land of Israel to what is now the Isralis, so according to religion, the land belongs to Israel. And what makes this more relavent, is that the bible predicted the war that is going on now in Israel. And, of course, the bible has been around for a very, very long time. Before the battle that is going on right now started.

I can't believe people are still being blinded by what they *think* occurred in the Gaza Strip.


All right, so let's begin: The Gaza Strip.

The Israeli "withdrawl" from the Gaza Strip was an example of how cunning they are. I'll give them credit for that. Now, they see that the Gaza Strip is heavily populated by Palestinians (because they were forced there, let me remind you). They see that having soldiers there accomplishes little as a result. So what do they do?

They withdraw their soldiers to fight in other problematic areas of the region (now, it's Lebanon). However, it's a double-edged sword. They fool the world into thinking they are giving the Palestinians "a nation"?

How is it that giving less than 2% of the land to the Palestinians justifies all that they've done to them? How is it that the world believes that the Palestinian people should be CONTENT WITH, AND JUST ACCEPT, SUCH A SMALL PORTION OF THE LAND?

The Israelis withdrew their soldiers to *show* the world that they are "willing" to give the Palestinians land, when all they've done WEAKEN THE ARGUMENT FOR THE PALESTINIANS RIGHT TO THE LAND! Just think about it. People see this nice gesture from Israel, and then all of a sudden, they begin to say "So shouldn't the conflict end? Shouldn't the Palestinians be happy? Why are they still fighting?

Don't you see? By withdrawing from Gaza, Israel VERY CUNNINGLY AND DEVIOUSLY created a NEW ARGUMENT TO SUPPORT ITSELF, and can now say to the world "Look what we did, isn't that ENOUGH?"

And all of a sudden, the Palestinians should just completely REVOKE and FORGET THEIR CLAIM TO THE LAND?

(And to make matters worse, WHY ARE THE ISRAELIS BACK IN GAZA?)


Furthermore, guess what? The Qu'ran also promised the land to the ancestors of the Palestinian people and guess what else? The Qu'ran also predicted this very same conflict! So your argument that "The Bible Says, It should be so" is irrelevant, because the Palestinians ALSO have those SAME religious ties to the region.

[Toasty]

But you see, the man that made the Muslim religion calimed to have seen the Angel Gabriel, which is also a very important Angel in the Christian religion. The Muslim religion was aslo established much later than the Christian religion, so it is possible that the Muslim religion copied some of the text from the Christian bible.

And in the war where Israel gained the Gaza strip, which they Miraculously won in 6 days against 5 (or three, can't remember ) countries who opposed them, they only gained the Gaza strip from Palestine. Nothing more. They're are only giving back what they fairly took in a war. Why should they give them any more? Besides all of that, it doesn't matter if you give the Palestinians money, or land, or anything else. You could give them the country of Israel, but as long as the Israelis still live, they will not be content. They've proved that over the years.

[Golden Legacy]

Mr.T, on Aug 9 2006, 01:31 AM, said:

But you see, the man that made the Muslim religion calimed to have seen the Angel Gabriel, which is also a very important Angel in the Christian religion. The Muslim religion was aslo established much later than the Christian religion, so it is possible that the Muslim religion copied some of the text from the Christian bible.

And in the war where Israel gained the Gaza strip, which they Miraculously won in 6 days against 5 (or three, can't remember ) countries who opposed them, they only gained the Gaza strip from Palestine. Nothing more. They're are only giving back what they fairly took in a war. Why should they give them any more? Besides all of that, it doesn't matter if you give the Palestinians money, or land, or anything else. You could give them the country of Israel, but as long as the Israelis still live, they will not be content. They've proved that over the years.

1) Actually, you're wrong on that account. You see, if there is one thing Muslims know, it's that their Holy Book has not been tampered with. The Qu'ran as it is today is the same as it was when it was first revealed. However, the Bible has gone through considerable changes (just look, there are even different versions of it). So I ask then, how can we be sure what God's actual words are? At least with the Qu'ran, I know for certain.

2) This is a key point everyone keeps missing; Muslims believe in other prophets besides Mohammad, and in fact all the key prophets in Christianity and Judaism ALSO EXIST in Islam doctrine.

Do you know what this means? It means that Muslims believe those prophets were originally set out to deliver the Muslim message of God. In other words, Muslims believe that Moses, Jesus, etc. where sent by their God (Allah) under their own beliefs. Thus, the argument that you have is negligible, because you can make a religious case from either point.

3) You mean the Six Day War in 1967? The one during which the United States OVERWHELMINGLY GAVE MILITARY SUPPLIES AND SUPPORT TO ISRAEL?

And you are MISTAKEN: Israel took the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula (from Egypt), The Golan Heights (from Syria), and not to mention the West Bank.

Review your history, Israel occupied all that land and more.

4)

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"They're are only giving back what they fairly took in a war. Why should they give them any more?"

God, that is the most irrational statement ever in this context. Think about it. The problem in the Middle East isn't "Why isn't Israel giving back land?" so much as it is "Why is Israel even there IN THE FIRST PLACE, on land that IS CLAIMED, and BELONGS TO, the Palestinians?

You're talking as if IT'S BEEN ACCEPTED that the LAND BELONGS TO ISRAEL, and it's not accepted; it's the very source of the conflict itself.

5)

Quote

Besides all of that, it doesn't matter if you give the Palestinians money, or land, or anything else. You could give them the country of Israel, but as long as the Israelis still live, they will not be content. They've proved that over the years.

Over what years? The years where the Palestinians have barely had food or water to live on, the years in which they have had to fight for their survival, the years in which they have been oppressed and dehumanized?

The fight is ultimately for the LAND. And whoever occupies THEIR LAND will be THEIR ENEMY.

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Aug 9 2006, 06:11 AM, said:

3) You mean the Six Day War in 1967? The one during which the United States OVERWHELMINGLY GAVE MILITARY SUPPLIES AND SUPPORT TO ISRAEL?

And you are MISTAKEN: Israel took the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula (from Egypt), The Golan Heights (from Syria), and not to mention the West Bank.

5)

Over what years? The years where the Palestinians have barely had food or water to live on, the years in which they have had to fight for their survival, the years in which they have been oppressed and dehumanized?

The fight is ultimately for the LAND. And whoever occupies THEIR LAND will be THEIR ENEMY.

And here comes the point where you are actually wrong.

First off, I understand that they took more than the Gaza strip, but what areas did they take that Palestinians occupied? And what did they give back? And on top of that, even with the two forces combined it was highly unlikely that the Israelis could have won in such a short amount of time.

And secondly, the US has given the Palestinians money, at least once before, and enough to bring them out of poverty and such too. Instead, their leader took it and made a palace in France for his wife. He is also the one in charge of the Palestinian military, and he is definately not fighting to bring his people out of poverty. And the fact that it is their land has nothing to do with it. It's just a cover for the news that they use to hide their ambitions of destroying the Israelis

[Golden Legacy]

Mr.T, on Aug 9 2006, 08:43 PM, said:

And here comes the point where you are actually wrong.

First off, I understand that they took more than the Gaza strip, but what areas did they take that Palestinians occupied? And what did they give back? And on top of that, even with the two forces combined it was highly unlikely that the Israelis could have won in such a short amount of time.

And secondly, the US has given the Palestinians money, at least once before, and enough to bring them out of poverty and such too. Instead, their leader took it and made a palace in France for his wife. He is also the one in charge of the Palestinian military, and he is definately not fighting to bring his people out of poverty. And the fact that it is their land has nothing to do with it. It's just a cover for the news that they use to hide their ambitions of destroying the Israelis

1) No my good sir, my facts remain true. The Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, Golan Heights, and the West Bank; ALL had Palestinian refugees. Some admittedly more than others (the Palestinians were concentrated in Gaza and the West Bank) but by no means were those the ONLY locations they had to escape to.

2) And secondly, what you just said actually VALIDATED one of my earlier points that you wouldn't concede to (well actually, it was Eugine, but...)

Arafat is a clear example of why the Palestinians can't rely on their actual government. You are right; he did use it for his own personal gain. And at what expense? The Palestinians. And thus, seeing that their government had failed, they turned to the aforementioned terrorist groups because they were forced to rely on the forces that would ACTUALLY DEFEND THEM and DO SOMETHING FOR THEM.

[Toasty]

But you left out the second part. He's still in control of his military. If he wasn't, he'd be dead by now. And if for some reason he really isn't in control, then that validates my argument. The palestinians are so bent on getting rid of the Israelis, that they don't bother to seek revenge on the person who betrayed them. But that's only if he isn't in control.

[Golden Legacy]

... You do realize he's dead, right?

[Eugine]

If we want a solution to this problem we have to completely ignore the religious side of the conflict. Israel, nor Palestine will accept the opinion that the enemy's doctrine is a fact. That's a fact.

And frankly, I can't think of any other solution. Both sides are arrogant about the issue.

[Golden Legacy]

At last, someone finally acknowledges a point I have been trying to make for days now.

Based on what Eugine just posted (that neither side will ever accept the other's religious or historical claim to the land), we must know ask ourselves...

Why is the media in support of Israel? Why do a lot of people (especially here in the USA) believe so strongly in Israel's claim to the land, when here we just demonstrated that the Palestinians have an equally strong claim as well? It isn't fair, and it isn't justified.


But I agree Eugine; a temporary solution will have to be focusing on the present.

[Eugine]

Because the USA is filled with Christians; Christians believes the land there belongs to Israel according to the Bible. I believe it myself =)

Or well, most terrorism comes from the Middle East, they just want a reason to hate them or well, oppose.

[Platinum Sun]

I think we side with Israel because we were one of the countries that helped to create it and we're too proud to admit that we made a horrible mistake in doing so.

[Golden Legacy]

I mean, just think about it; we're all going psycho over nuclear weapons in Iran and North Korea, but guess what nation has 200 nucleur warheads??

And yet, no one one condemns Israel for it.

[Platinum Sun]

The actual number of nuclear warheads isn't what amps up the danger. What we're worried about are the countries with absolute dictators crazy enough to use them. While Israel has no reservations about deploying its military forces en masse, they have considerably less chance of using Nukes than say... North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, India etc.

[Eugine]

The governments use the "A weapon in one hand is different in another" system.

For example GL, a weapon lets say your hand will most likely be used differently if it was in a banned member.

[Golden Legacy]

I acknowledge that's a good point. However, I just want to know why it's never referred to, and why that's kept mostly hidden from people. Even if Israel isn't likely to use nucleur weapons, isn't it worth mentioning in a television debate about nations that use nukes? Why is it, also, that the US spends billions ever year for arms and military weaponry for Israel, and yet that's never brought up when people talk about the federal budget.

[Toasty]

I'd like to add that the media I've seen, hasn't supported Israel one bit. And that's a very good point there Eugine.

[isaac2112]

The point is that the middle east has been suicide bombing isreal for so long. Isreal is tired of it. The muslim fanatics do not want to modernize ther beleifs, they want to go back to when it was ok to kill people if they dont agree with you. Isreal is the victem here and they are tired of being pushed around. If a major attack happens in isreal, america will be there to defend them.

[Toasty]

Wow. That's like, what I've been trying to say all along! But much better worded. Kudos, isaac.

[Golden Legacy]

And it leads back to the same argument, and the same flaws in that argument.

I'm going to quote two of my recent posts here.

Golden Legacy, on Aug 4 2006, 04:15 PM, said:

Eugine, I'm not taking this out of thin air. I have blood and family in the region. I've been to the region, and I've viewed the conflict from both sides. I, unlike others, have not been mindlessly accepting what the American media shows. Yes, people here are mostly against the Palestinians, but do people go out of their way to see the truth from both sides?

Now then, you talk about Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups. Fine, they exist. No denying that. But at the same time, why are the Palestinians automatically associated with these terrorist groups? People use the terms "Palestinian" and "terrorist" synonymously, they don't give these people a chance.

Now, consider this: Why was it that dictators in the past (Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and others) embraced at first? The reason is people need to feel protected. When the Palestinians see that their government can't prevent Israeli attacks, they turn to the only things they can do to protect their homelands. If that means throwing rocks, fine. If that means showing support for a "terrorist" group in order to protect their lives and their homeland, then so be it.

I'm sure you know the proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". They see groups like Hamas and Hezbollah fighting against their hated enemy, Israel. What are they going to do? They can't condemn or oppose them, because doing so would leave them vulnerable!

Listen to me everyone. I recognize and agree that BOTH sides have done wrong. Both sides have done merciless acts of violence. But what I do NOT accept is how people simply refuse to acknowledge the possible motives behind the actions, and how people don't seem to understand that when a people is forced in a dire situation, they NEED to survive, one way or another.

Golden Legacy, on Aug 4 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

Thank you Platinum Sun, that was very well said.
Eugine, I can't even imagine why you're talking like this. These people aren't randomly opposed to Israel, and these people are NOT resigned to simply dying because their enemy is Israel. They fight because it's a cause worth dying for.

And that's the problem there. What is causing them to resort to this? Who is ultimately forcing the Palestinian people to be prepared to do anything for their nation? Do you honestly think that Palestinians DON'T want to live? Israel is robbing them of any option of living their lives the way ANY human would want; without fear, without worry.

Eugine, I've seen multiple documentaries on this myself. Palestinians may kill, but Israelis murder and torture. They do things that COMPLETELY DE-HUMANIZE the Palestinians. It's beyond life and death. I even feel the word 'inhumane' is justified.

Now, beyond that last paragraph (which I will support with mutiple links; I already have some bookmarked), Eugine, all I'm asking you to consider is that the Palestinians have NO OTHER WAY; the reason they are willing to die for their nation is because, ONLY then will they ever have the hope of seeing their land liberated. And who is causing them to be this way? Who is giving this as the ultimatum for the Palestinians?

Israel.

[Toasty]

And I'd like to add, why the heck do they hate Israel? The Israelis gave back some of their land, without fighting, so instead of waisting lives in a war, why not reason with them a little more? And the people who hate Palestine do so because they are associated with terrorists. And if they tried to reson instead of going to war, they wouldn't need terroroists to back them up. This leaves one conclusion, Palestinians (not all of them though) hate Israelis because they are there. And they won't stop fighting untill Israel dosen't exist. As I've said numerous times.

[Platinum Sun]

Quite correct. This conflict was started by the creation of Israel, so it follows logically that it can only be fully resolved by the destruction of Israel.

[Golden Legacy]

^ Simply, and perfectly said. No need for more than that.

[Toasty]

But if you strongly believe in Christianity, then you believe that Israel will never fall in our time. In the bible, it states that in the end of times, everyone (that means the whole world), will turn on Israel. But Israel won't fall. I believe that, but that's because I strongly believe in Christianity.

I think it's safe to agree to disgree on the matter in the poll. And I think that sums it up fairly well PS.

[Golden Legacy]

Mr.T, on Aug 11 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

But if you strongly believe in Christianity, then you believe that Israel will never fall in our time. In the bible, it states that in the end of times, everyone (that means the whole world), will turn on Israel. But Israel won't fall. I believe that, but that's because I strongly believe in Christianity.

And the same holds true for the Muslims, in what is said in their Qu'ran (the same, except with the Palestinians).

Again, PS summed it up perfectly well, and I think it's worth repeating.

Quote

This conflict was started by the creation of Israel, so it follows logically that it can only be fully resolved by the destruction of Israel.

[Eugine]

That statement PS said was bull****.

Fist of all, you don't know when the conflict started, it was there LONG before documented history. IF you don't use religious texts you have NO idea what, where, who started the conflict and when it started. If you do, enlighten me.

Secondly, if you say that, many conflicts were started by USA. Do you honestly believe destroying USA will end the problems? No, they'd find other problems to create.

Finally, if you think destroying a well extablished country like Israel will stop this conflict, you're screwed.

[Platinum Sun]

Yeah, they've been angry at eachother for a long time, but it was the shooting/killing/suicide bombing/terrorism/missile volleys/threat of nuclear holocaust stuff that's recent.

[My Best Wishes]

Destroying the Jews won't bring an end to the conflict. I'm sure you all heard about the recent thwarted attack on America from English planes? Those people aren't going to care if the West or Israel falls, people will always find someone or something to fight about/ or for. It's our nature, I know for me I'd rather hit someone or put them down then let it go.

[Toasty]

Well, I can tell you that the quarrel won't ever end, but I can also tell you that Israel won't ever fall. Ever.

But I do believe what you're saying Watch.

[Phillip]

Who cares about Palestine. I am Muslim, but Muslims shouldn't own the holy land! Jewish people should because they came first!

[Golden Legacy]

Are you really a Muslim, Agatio? Or rather, Phillip...

At any rate, we've been through this argument. If you'd bothered to read through this topic a bit, you'd realize that the Palestinians believe their ancestors were there first, and likewise for the Jews.

Therefore, we can't say who deserves the Holy Land just based on that.

Simple as that.

[Phillip]

How did you know it was me? CRAP I though that post about emailing people hate mail would stop you. (I copied Zxor's Post, btw). Oh well.

[Toasty]

Agatio wouldn't say crap, he'd say ****. You're not Agatio.

And I agree with that GL, it can't be decided by that, unless there is solid proof that one was there before the other. That being said, I still say that Israel should stay.

[Golden Legacy]

And I will forever support Palestine.

I just find it hard to believe that people can't see which side is suffering more; which side has tanks and advanced weaponry, things that the Palestinians can't match? Which side emplys humanitarian means of defeat, such as cutting off food and water supplies, bulldozing (sp?) down Palestinian homes, and giving them no home?

And worst of all, Israelis kill and aim for children. Palestinians never employ such tactics.