[Someone Else]

I remember in the old days of crappy graphics, games were complex, intriguing, and fun. Games like The Elder Scrolls (pre-Oblivion), Mario Bros., Fallout, Duke Nukem, the Old Zeldas (Majora's Mask and before), StarCraft, Diablo... to name a handful.

These days games are much more simple, and there is a lot of hand-holding. I swear, I looove TES: Oblivion, but it's no where as complex, or rewarding, or difficult as Morrowind or Daggerfall or Arena. Oblivion was dumbed down for the new generation of console fanboys. Gone were nifty weapons like throwing daggers, gone was the exploration to find that next dungeon, as in Oblivion there's a compass that points your RIGHT TO where you need to go. There is no feeling of danger out in the open or getting lost, as you can just open your map and fast-travel (teleport) to a town safely as soon as the combat music stops.

I know that The Elder Scrolls can't be the only game that's dumbed down. New Super Mario Bros. is a step in the right direction to bring back the complex and fun games of old, but it's not as fun or difficult as the original Mario Bros. There's not as many secret areas, and in Super Mario Bros there were 5 coins to find in each level instead of 3. Yoshi was gone, too.

And we all know that Zelda's been dumbed down, so I'm not going to elaborate on Zelda too much. I'm pointing at Nintendo and PC games because Sony and Microsoft weren't around in the day of REAL games.

Am I whining? A little. Nintendo is trying the bring back the old games with the virtual console on the Wii, NSMB, and Twilight Princess, but what do you guys think?

[Aquamarine]

I completely, whole heartedly agree. Gamers seem to be too lazy these days, as all they want to do is get from the begining to the end of the game, not really caring to stop in between and look around and think about what has happened, if you get my meaning.

I'm not so sure that games are becoming less fun, but certainly eaiser. The Wind Waker is one of the funnest games I've played, but also one of the easiest, which ruined the whole game for me.

I'm pissed off at people who whine about the difficulty of Echoes. I LOVED that Echoes was always a challenge, sometimes even uber hard. It was so refreshing, and I'll miss that difficulty in Corruption, as Retro said it'll be easier.

And I keep hearing that TP is also too easy. Well, Nintendo can go to hell with their attempts at trying to please the little kiddies.

[Someone Else]

I was a little worried that no one would post. Good for you, Aqua, you got a few WD respect points. :P

I don't consider someone to be a real gamer unless they've played and ENJOYED one of the Mario Bros. game (pre-NSMB) at LEAST, and any of those games I listed up there would do even better.

The thing is, games that are easy and pretty sell better. Like Halo 2. Halo 2 is easy and a little dumbed down, and balancing for weapons was way off. A person with little skill could carry a plasma pistol in one hand and a magnum in another, charge the plasma pistol and shoot at a more skilled player using, I dunno, an SMG and take his shields down. Then he could carry on to fill him with bullets with the magnum and he would be down in seconds.

Simplicity isn't a bad thing, a lot of simple games are awesome and fun. Pong was simple. Halo 1 was pretty simple. But it's when you dumb a game down to appeal to a wide audience of retards, that's when I get pissed.

[TheEnglishman]

I think that some games, such as Zelda and that, are getting easier. TP was a lot easier than Ocarina or Majora's Mask ever were, though it was more difficult than Wind Waker.
Some games have always been easy though. Stuff like Sonic and Mario have never really left you stumped for hours on end.
Then there's a series like Final Fantasy where the games just get harder and more complex. I'd say FF12 was far more difficult than any of it's predecessors.

[Aquamarine]

Actually, the old Mario games were some of the hardest. Mario World 2 for GBA can be such a pain in the ass.

Sunshine was sometimes really difficult, but the Shines you HAD to get to finish the game were never hard. Only the optional ones were sometimes very challenging.

[Eugine]

imo, it's Nintendo first party titles that are getting easier. Don't kill me for it, but I believe it's true. Nintendo targets games to everyone, so they take into consideration young gamers, and while we grow, we just get better at games. So maybe it appears games are getting easier to us, when infact we're are just getting better at them.
After playing Zelda each generation, we already have an feel of the game, and so adapting to it will be much easier than the first time we played it for example.

[Caael]

Nintendo have to stop focusing on a ' wider target audience' and get some awesome hardcore games for the people who want them. Expanding to new people is fine, but they seem to be focusing entirely on them.

Most Wii games are just a collection of mini-games and gimmicks to entice new people. They're fine for about a week, but then they get boring. There is really not much point in owning a wii atm.

The ' Big 3' games will hopefully satisfy our thirst for good, difficult, games. But with Metroid, they're making it 'easier', Brawl will be ' simpler and slower' and i'm not sure about MG, but i'm not fond of 3D mario.

Nintendo just need to sit down and say ' Right. We're losing our old hardcore fans. We need a game that is rock hard and big to keep them satisfied'

But no, instead they go ' Right. We want more people to buy our products so we're going to make very easy games so that anybody can play them'

[TheEnglishman]

I can't have much opinion on earlier games because I was mainly restricted to a Mega Drive (Genesis) which didn't have much on it.
There was the good old ZX Spectrum but the games on there were around well before I was born.
@Caael: I'd agree. Out of all the companies, Nintendo is trying to satisfy the most people. The fact that the Wii is meant to be played by anyone shows this.

[Someone Else]

Eugine, on May 28 2007, 01:30 PM, said:

imo, it's Nintendo first party titles that are getting easier. Don't kill me for it, but I believe it's true. Nintendo targets games to everyone, so they take into consideration young gamers, and while we grow, we just get better at games. So maybe it appears games are getting easier to us, when infact we're are just getting better at them.
After playing Zelda each generation, we already have an feel of the game, and so adapting to it will be much easier than the first time we played it for example.

That's true, everyone at this forum probably has better reflexes and the like than they did, say, a year ago. But try this:

Play the first three dungeons of A Link to the Past on GBA and the boss battle before going to the Dark World or whatever.

Then, play the whole game of the Minish Cap. Tell me, were any of the dungeons in MC as hard as the third dungeon in LttP?

[TheEnglishman]

There was one dungeon in LttP which I never actually finished. I can't remember which one it was though. Contrast that to Minish Cap where the only real difficulty came with the last boss.
It's the same with the main Zelda's as well. Nothing in TP matched the Water temple in Ocarina or Majora's mask, though TP's Water temple was fairly tough.

[Caael]

Wind Dude, on May 28 2007, 09:40 PM, said:

That's true, everyone at this forum probably has better reflexes and the like than they did, say, a year ago. But try this:

Play the first three dungeons of A Link to the Past on GBA and the boss battle before going to the Dark World or whatever.

Then, play the whole game of the Minish Cap. Tell me, were any of the dungeons in MC as hard as the third dungeon in LttP?

Only Dark Hyrule castle, because of the goddamn 4 sword puzzles.

[Golden Djinn13]

I bet the main reason that games are starting to seem a little easier than before (And I mean this for all the big companies in general) is that they are trying to make their products more appealing to people that don't play video games or aren't really into them, and make them see how easy games are to pick up and play. This is pain in the ass as a lot of games today have good content removed in them (From the previous game) and seem much easier than before. (i.e: Kingdom Hearts + Kingdom Hearts 2).

Thats just my take on it though. :P

[Someone Else]

Oh yeah, the 4 sworrd puzzles were pretty cool, I'll give that to MC.

Also just want to add one more thing about Halo 2. What the hell is up with the auto-aim?!?

[TheEnglishman]

If a game came into a series, e.g. Zelda, that was tougher than any of the ones before it, do you think it would be criticised for it's difficulty or seen as a welcome change?

[Toasty]

What? For the rocket launcher? Well, seeing as it travels a LOT slower than any other projectile, I think it'd be pretty hard to hit a target without it. A bit TOO hard. I think it's actually a good idea, even if it does make the game a bit easier.

But as for games being easy, I kinda like haveing an easy game every once in a while. It's not very rewarding if no matter how hard you try, you just can't beat a game. However, though I may like easy games, I still wouldn't welcome a whole slew of 'em. I noticed how AW:DS was a LOT easier than AW:2. There wasn't a single level in AW:DS that I couldn't get past (there were a few that took a few tries), whereas in AW:2, there were a number of levels I couldn't beat. Heck, I finally resorted to cheat codes for the last three or so levels.

Basically, it's nice to be able to beat a game and feel you've accomplished something, but it's nicer to beat a hard game and feel you've accomplished something bigger.

Eugine, on May 28 2007, 01:30 PM, said:

imo, it's Nintendo first party titles that are getting easier. Don't kill me for it, but I believe it's true. Nintendo targets games to everyone, so they take into consideration young gamers, and while we grow, we just get better at games. So maybe it appears games are getting easier to us, when infact we're are just getting better at them.
After playing Zelda each generation, we already have an feel of the game, and so adapting to it will be much easier than the first time we played it for example.

It's not really so much as JUST young gamers, it's more like anyone who hasn't really picked up a videogame before. I mean, how many of you have parents who you know suck at games? I know my parents do (except my dad can match me in racing games, and he'd beat me every time when I was younger).

[Caael]

My dad will play Billiards on Wii play with me...

If Nintendo don't have some rock hard games out by the end of the year, i'm just going to give up and spend my days playing Brawl.

Mario Strikers Charged, now there's a good gam for Wii that targets our harcore gamers. Easy to learn and pick up, but unforgiving difficulty in some challenges.

[TheEnglishman]

Caael, on May 29 2007, 11:25 AM, said:

Mario Strikers Charged, now there's a good gam for Wii that targets our harcore gamers. Easy to learn and pick up, but unforgiving difficulty in some challenges.

Not only that but you get to play against Ian Wright as well!
Well that's what the advert said anyway.

[I'm Always BROKE]

No the games aren't getting dumber, it's just people demand more and more from it that it's not even funny to be a gamedesigner anymore.

[Caael]

No, take a good look at some of the games being released today.

SNES had no ****ing crap movie tie-in games. Wii, gamecube, DS just bring and brought in hordes of really really crap games. It's stupid. 1 in about 30 games released is half decent. Which is shocking. Some companies should just stop making games.

[Someone Else]

I'm not really intending to offend, but it sort of tells you something about the gamer if you ask them whether or not games are getting dumber than they were a few years ago, when they so obviously are.

Now, you have to be a little forgiving because some of us just jumped into gaming a little late. Me, I actually didn't start really being a gamer until I was about... 10 or 12 years old. (coincidentally, my life before that is a bit of a big blur in my memory)

[Eugine]

Well, Caael, ever since Sony came into gaming, and made it so big and casual (don't kill me, they did) most companies are realising gaming is an industry with profits. So yeah, I think that's why most games aren't superb, cuz they rush it, and don't put much money into it, to make massive damage, oh, meant profits.

And now, it's Nintendo that's making gaming even more 'casual'. Hey, Wii Sports? 60 year olds play that game x.x

Spoiler

BLAME IT ON NINTENDO! (I love saying that ^^)

[Folcon]

i've been a gamer for going on fifteen years, ever since we got a NES and I picked up that light gun and started playing duck hunt. Then it was Mario and on to the SNES. My house seems to be behind the times though. I didn't get a N-64 untill it was all but impossible to get good games for it, and I got my GC two X-mas's ago. Now the Wii is out and I don't know if I'll get it for at least a year. Hell, I only got my PS2 about a year and two or three days ago, on my b-day. how pathetic is that. Anyway, I have to agree. Many games have been dumbed down a lot over the years, but others have gotten harder. I could beat Megaman X1 in about an hour, but I still can't beat MMX 6 yet.

[Someone Else]

We're all gamers here, don't go fanboy, Eugine. Besides, Sony capitalizes the gaming industry with the PS2, so if anyone were to blame it's Sony.

Now though, Xbox is even worse than Nintendo and Sony. You guys heard of achievement and Gamerscore in the Xbox 360 games? It's genius! All Xbox 360 games are required to have a certain amount of points contained within the game that you can get through achievements you do in the game. For example, killing 5000 zombies in Dead Rising will get you a certain amount of points for your global Gamerscore in you Xbox 360 profile.

Sounds cool, but it's kind of pointless, right? But somehow, people are addicted to this system. Some even buy really crappy games to unlock more achievements just to increase their score, and some don't want to even play other systems because they're obsessed with making their Gamerscores bigger. It's good for business, but it hurts gaming as developers won't even have to make GOOD games anymore since people will buy it as long as there are achievements to unlock to make a number that doesn't even do anything higher.

This really pisses me off because PCs (my preferred platform) is getting this system as well, with the release of the "Games for Windows" brand. This means that PCs will be more recognized as gaming machines, true, but I don't want anything to do with it if bad games are going to be sold as best-sellers just to get a worthless number higher.

[Folcon]

mentioning getting crappy games for achevments remindes me. Remember the BK games for X-box. I can't beleave those things sold so well. I felt sorry for the people who had to play them and write the reviews and rateing for them. scores like 1/10 or in one case I think one of them acctualy got a -2/10. hwo sad is that. yet millions of them sold, just so people could get a few sh*** achevments. this is the best example I can think of of games getting dumber, or at least som game designers. I hope the games I turn out in about four or five years leval the field and bring back kick ass games again.

[Someone Else]

That's why I've taken a couple of WD respect points from Micro$oft and given them to Sony instead. Sony has a different, but still very similiar system.

Sony's developed an online society called "Home". In it you can get trophies from your favorite games through doing certain things, kind of like Xbox's achievements. Since it's just a visual trophy depending on the game and not a global score, gamers won't be tempted to buy a game they don't like since they won't really care about a trophy from such a game.

[Toasty]

But those BK games looked cool. :)

I really hate how some companies are makeing all these movies into games though. Especially when they're released for ALL of the systems, even includeing the GBA (which was replaced a few years ago by the DS). I can understand makeing movies like LotR and Spiderman into games. Afterall, they weren't only box office hits, they were actually really good movies. But makeing a game like Meet The Robinsons or even Finding Nemo into a game? COME ON. There is no way that they were even concerned about whether it was a decent game or not, it was made for profits, and only profits. That's what I hate the most. And on top of that, these new 3rd party game and acessory designers like N-Tech or something. They're new, they know little to nothing about the gameing industry, and most of the time their products are either low quality, or just crap.

I miss the good 'ol days of oldschool gameing. D: My parents bought me an N64 when we lived in Florida. I think I was five or six at the time, but I've been a fan of video games ever since. After that, I got a gamecube, then an SP, and finally a GC. If I'm lucky, which I'm probably not, I'll be getting a Wii soon. I've always wanted a PS2 or Xbox though, but not if I had to give up my GC (mainly because of SSBM :D ).
But Duck Hunt was AWESOME. It not only was, and still is a good game, it could be REALLY challenging at times. And of course, there was Super Mario, and Mario Kart, and a bunch of other games. The vast majority of oldschool games weren't only origional and fun to play, but they were obviously made for gamers, and not profit. Of course in the end, all game companies want profits, but if they put the gamers before profits, they won't only please their customers, but they'll get profits along with it.

I guess you could compare it to pissing people off and getting profits for the remaining time that you still have customers, or pleasing your customers and continuing to get profits for many years to come.

[My Best Wishes]

Caael, on May 30 2007, 08:23 AM, said:

No, take a good look at some of the games being released today.

SNES had no ****ing crap movie tie-in games. Wii, gamecube, DS just bring and brought in hordes of really really crap games. It's stupid. 1 in about 30 games released is half decent. Which is shocking. Some companies should just stop making games.

Look at the amount, for the DS anyway, of games are made based on crap movies and kid shows? As already mentioned you get like Ice age 2, Finding Nemo and things like Kim Possible. They just want kiddies money.

Eugine, on May 30 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

And now, it's Nintendo that's making gaming even more 'casual'. Hey, Wii Sports? 60 year olds play that game x.x

Spoiler

BLAME IT ON NINTENDO! (I love saying that ^^)

Did you see that report a couple of months back of that retirement home in USA that bought a Wii?

[TheEnglishman]

watch, on Jun 1 2007, 08:36 AM, said:

Did you see that report a couple of months back of that retirement home in USA that bought a Wii?

Really? I can't imagine 60 and 70 year olds playing on a Wii. Maybe I'm just not being imaginative enough.

[Folcon]

it true. I read as well. Thet realy on got casual games, like wii sports. the simple stuff that old people would have an eaisier time playing. And TP, a racing game, and Red Steel.

[Toasty]

Wow. Old people playing Red Steel? That I HAVE to see. =D

[Aquamarine]

I think he was joking about old people playing TP, Red Steel and a racing game(like Excite Truck, I guess). Those are gamer games.

...Right?

[Someone Else]

Not anymore. Get back on topic, you stooges.

[Folcon]

@ Toasty - give me a few days to dig through my copies of NP. I'll find it, scan it, and post it as proof. Or I'll see if I can find it on the web site.