Norman Finkelstein (political scientist, professor, and author) owns i
#1
Posted 30 March 2010 - 02:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4...player_embedded
damn.
#2
Posted 30 March 2010 - 03:02 PM
#3
Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:28 PM
I have to admit, I hardly follow Middle Eastern news currently because both sides annoy me so much, and it's like there is no progress. Ever.
But I have to admit, why does it always feel like if Israel is the one who is always willing to compromise, while the Palestinians want everything?
#4
Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:31 PM
Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 03:28 PM, said:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_T4Wk9M2ObE
#5
Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:38 PM
Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 03:28 PM, said:
I have to admit, I hardly follow Middle Eastern news currently because both sides annoy me so much, and it's like there is no progress. Ever.
But I have to admit, why does it always feel like if Israel is the one who is always willing to compromise, while the Palestinians want everything?
This is precisely my thought on the matter.
#6
Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:58 PM
#9
Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:03 PM
Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 06:28 PM, said:
Or, let's have a different perspective: why does it always feel like Palestinians are willing to compromise, while Israel wants everything?
Toasty, on Mar 30 2010, 05:02 PM, said:
Let me guess... Israel marks the 2nd coming of the Christ, the arrival of the Armageddon, and the end of times during which all humans will profess to their sins in front of thy Lord.
#11
Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:13 PM
Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip.
Israel withdrew from Lebanon.
Two compromise I can list from my head. What did they get in return? More rocket attacks >.>
#12
Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:14 PM
Golden Legacy, on Mar 30 2010, 04:03 PM, said:
If Israel wanted everything, they wouldn't be compromising. But because Palestine wan'ts everything, they continue to fight until they've obtained it.
Golden Legacy, on Mar 30 2010, 04:03 PM, said:
EXACTLY!
WAY TO GO AT DETECTING SARCASM!
#13
Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:19 PM
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And maintains the most inhuman blockade of 1.5 million people in an open-air prison, where medicine, food, water, fuel, and clothing are cut off, no one is allowed out, and air raids are a regular basis of life.
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Israel did not withdraw from Lebanon. Israel had an illegal military presence in Lebanon since the time of the 1982 war, and subsequently maintained control of the Shebaa Farms even after the "withdrawal" of 2000.
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http://weblogs.asp.net/blogs/rosherove/image_thumb_yT35eg.png
In 1988, the Palestinian leadership accepted that the future state of Palestine would exist as in panel three. 78% of the land was recognized to belong to Israel, with 22% of the former land (comprising the West Bank and Gaza) as their new state.
#14
Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:42 PM
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And Israel has been softening the blockade every year.
Israel to allow clothes, shoes into blockaded Gaza
Netanyahu:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speec...22-Mar-2010.htm
My government has removed hundreds of roadblocks, barriers and checkpoints facilitating Palestinian movement. As a result, we have helped spur a fantastic boom in the Palestinian economy (coffee Shops, restaurants, businesses, even multiplex theaters). And we announced an unprecedented moratorium on new Israeli construction in Judea and Samaria.
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And am I suppose to just believe some picture, without any info on why there were changes?
#16
Posted 30 March 2010 - 06:01 PM
http://www.goldensun-syndicate.net/forum/public/style_images/gssv3/snapback.png' alt='View Post' />Golden Legacy, on Mar 30 2010, 04:19 PM, said:
In 1988, the Palestinian leadership accepted that the future state of Palestine would exist as in panel three. 78% of the land was recognized to belong to Israel, with 22% of the former land (comprising the West Bank and Gaza) as their new state.
These losses of land all happened after Palestine lost wars which it started, correct me if I'm wrong.
#17
Posted 30 March 2010 - 06:03 PM
Here is B'Tselem, a Jewish human rights organization:
http://www.btselem.o...Gaza_Status.asp
http://www.btselem.o...ish/Gaza_Strip/
"Other than the [withdrawal] mentioned above, the disengagement did not lead to any improvement in the living conditions of the area's residents, and Israel continues to violate their rights by its various acts and omissions."
Eighty percent of the residents of the Gaza Strip live under the poverty line.
"Air space and territorial waters: Israel continues to maintain complete control over the air and sea space of the Gaza Strip. Control of the air space provides Israel with the ability to effectively and easily control actions on the ground, and to interfere with radio and television broadcasts. Control of the coastal area and territorial waters enables Israel , among other things, to restrict the activity of Palestinian fishermen. Israel 's control is also manifested in the need to obtain Israeli approval to operate a seaport and airport, the lack of which impairs freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip and impairs the Palestinians' conduct of foreign trade."
"Imports and exports: Israel continues to exercise complete control over the movement of goods into the Gaza Strip. The three crossing points designated for this purpose – Karni, Sufa, and Kerem Shalom – are under Israel 's sole control. Rafah Crossing, the administration of which was handed over to the Palestinian Authority, has a terminal for the crossing of goods, but according to the November 2005 agreement, the crossing is limited to exports. The importance of the PA's independent ability to export goods via Rafah Crossing is limited, given that most of the exports are intended for Israel or are shipped abroad via Israeli ports. As a result, most exports pass through Karni. Israel 's almost complete control of the movement of goods to and from the Gaza Strip has far-reaching consequences: Israel 's decision to close the commercial crossings, a frequent occurrence, paralyzes the Gaza Strip economy and causes a shortage of basic goods, including food and medicines."
Here is the Red Cross, Jewish Voice for Peace, and an additional article.
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/h...a-update-211209
A quote: "Key infrastructure in Gaza is run-down. The population lives under constant threat of a collapse of water, sanitation and electricity services.
The closure is paralysing any new construction. With few exceptions, such as water pipes imported by the private sector, no building materials have been allowed through the Israeli crossing points in 2009."
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish...tsoutgaza.shtml
"You wouldn't know it from following the mainstream media, or from listening to any of the US presidential candidates, but some 1.5 million Palestinians are being slowly starved to death, right now, in Gaza. They have been barred from getting the food, fuel, and medical supplies they need to survive. Eighty percent of the population is dependent on food aid.
What's more, the Israeli government claims this collective punishment will protect the people of Sderot, Israel who have suffered tremendously from unrelenting rocket attacks from Gazan militants. But the Gaza blockade, and Israel's ongoing restrictions of goods and free movement, home demolitions, and use of excessive force, including dropping bombs on the heads of civilians, has only caused further loss of both Palestinian and Israeli life. Since 2000, almost 3,000 Gazans and 12 residents of Sderot have died. There is a better way to bring peace, security and justice to both peoples."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...r-40-years.html
In very few ways have I seen anyone try to justify the collective starvation of 1.5 million people.
Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 07:42 PM, said:
As opposed to the choice of the US-backed "moderate Fatah", an organization notorious for its corruption and use of torture? The fair and free elections were between them and the organization that spent 80-90% of its resources on schools, jobs, infrastructure...
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For the same reason, I suppose, you quoted directly the Israeli Prime Minister and took him at his word, without any info to justify or support his claims.
Toasty, on Mar 30 2010, 08:01 PM, said:
You would be wrong.
#18
Posted 30 March 2010 - 09:45 PM
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z84/WindDude/1246021627209.gif
#19
Posted 12 April 2010 - 08:07 PM
You can use current behaviour to predict future behaviour, can you? Well, let us take a look at what the residents of Gaza import when given a chance. You are more informed than me of Middle East issues, so I am sure you know about the tunnels between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.
The Palestinians always argued the tunnels were used to import food and clothing, but as reported the majority of smuggled goods are weapons, which, guess what, are used against the Israelis and support Hamas. Actually, rather than constructing the tunnel to smuggle food and clothing, the tunnels were actually constructed to facilitate Hamas war against Israel! How ironic.
It is always easy to portray the Palestinians as victims, after all, they are living in worse conditions than the Israelis and it is hard to justify what Israel is doing, but sometimes you have to do what is necessary. Israel, like the US, and every other democracy elects a government to fight for its people... and well, that is what Israel is doing. We know Israel goal is not the complete destruction of the Palestinians, but the survival of its country. I honestly, and you honestly, cannot say the Palestinians, and Hamas in particular goal is the same... the survival of its people.
Oh, look... another rocket attack.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2010/0318/I...-since-Gaza-war
#20
Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:50 PM
How do you explain the siezing of land in the West Bank, where no Hamas is in power? How do you explain the disgusting policy of bulldozing Palestinian homes, of uprooting their olive trees, of imprisonment of women and children, of shooting down teenagers? How do you explain the policy where, for 40 years, your land has been taken to satisfy the egos of religious zealots who claim it was theirs based on a Biblical prophecy, where international law is recklessly and continually defied that says you cannot ethnically displace a native population off their land?
The split between Hamas and Fatah is a very recent phenomenon in these terms (2006), and prior to that, under the united leadership of the PLO, these colonizing acts by Israel continued unabated, as they do today. What about the 60 years BEFORE the tunnels or the rockets that came into existence just a few years ago? What about the West Bank, where no rockets have been fired, where Palestinians are separated from their families, farms, and schools? Where people are indefinitely imprisoned without trial in defiance of the Geneva Conventions? Where Palestinians are prevented from reaching their churches and mosques, where 600 checkpoints are set-up to where a ten minute walk to see your family becomes a five hour wait at the mercy of armed soldiers? Where because of your identity, you can be forcibly removed and displaced into separate Bantustan homelands as blacks suffered in South Africa? What about the illegal settling of Israel's population onto occupied land, its most extremist of extremists, armed to the teeth and given protection by soldiers guarding their homes and shooting anyone who comes within a 500 meter radius (on land that is not theirs)? Where activists from around the world are killed trying to defend a family from having their home torn down or their lives uprooted? The refugees from 1948 who still hold the keys to their homes and yet are not given the fundamental right of return?
Your entire knowledge of Israel-Palestine seems to be based on a superficial understanding dating back about five years. Ongoing occupation, colonizing, killings, and acts equivalent of Apartheid have been going on for half a century across generations. It is impossible to even label your entire post as one based on a strawman or misinformation... it is a matter of being uninformed, of having a view so narrow that daring to look at the extended history and the root causes would otherwise put an end to your naive depiction of who the victim is.
P.S. Oh look, four Palestinian teenagers killed.
#21
Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:41 PM
#23
Posted 23 June 2010 - 12:45 AM
Legolastom, on Jun 19 2010, 04:41 PM, said:
Too bad that's impossible. The only reason everyone has nukes, is because it's impossible to keep them out of the hands of every person who would actually use them offensively.
In a perfect world, we wouldn't nedd MAD to keep things stable. However, though unfortunate as it is, we don't live in a perfect world.
Also, the thought of Iran gaining nuclear weapons is quite disturbing to me. The leader of Iran is the kind of person that would rather see Israel burn, than be inhabited by anyone other than muslims. I'm quite certain that if given the opportunity to obtain nuclear weapons, Iran would not hesitate to use them.
#24
Posted 25 June 2010 - 10:39 AM
#25
Posted 25 June 2010 - 10:57 AM
Toasty, on Jun 23 2010, 02:45 AM, said:
In a perfect world, we wouldn't nedd MAD to keep things stable. However, though unfortunate as it is, we don't live in a perfect world.
What you can do instead is to work on ending nuclear proliferation and working on securing loose nuclear weapons and materials and working with other nations to prevent their spread. You can't get rid of nuclear weapons, but you can find a mutual basis to contain them and reduce current stockpiles while ensuring that they are safe and secure.
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The 'leader' of Iran is the Ayatollah and the members of the Supreme Council. On issues pertaining to foreign policy and the military, the President (I assume that's you mean by 'leader') is a largely ceremonial role that has no final word nor sets the policy that the nation as a whole follows.
#26
Posted 20 July 2010 - 01:26 PM
#27
Posted 20 July 2010 - 01:44 PM
Caael, on Jul 20 2010, 12:26 PM, said:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Fu9vR2XdprA