[Sea of Time]

I know that this is out of the ordinary for me, me being so darn not serious, but I was listening to a radio show about stem cell research and I was wondering what you guys thought about the whole issue.

Do you promote stem cell research as it can save human lives by causing medical breakthroughs or do you demote it because you believe that stem cell research breaks human morals.

It's Embryonic Stem Cell Research if you need specifics.

[Kikuichimonji]

In my honest opinion, I think stem cell research is a very good thing, as it could save lives and in fact allow further medical advances.

However, I say this up to an extent...

[Sea of Time]

Why up to an extent, are you not sure about if it is a good idea, or are you not wanting to insult people who think it is a bad idea.

I know that to some people that this is a touchy subject, however. It is everywhere today, and for George W. Bush to oppose stem cell research almost won John Kerry the election in my mind.

[Kikuichimonji]

woops, my bad, I mistook this topic for genetic engineering

but, please forgive me if I am wrong, what morals are there to be broken if you simply want to save lives?

[Sea of Time]

I don't want to speak for the religious groups out there who think it is a bad idea, so if someone wants to come forward to clear this up...

[Andross]

Kikuichimonji, on Dec 7 2004, 12:31 AM, said:

woops, my bad, I mistook this topic for genetic engineering

but, please forgive me if I am wrong, what morals are there to be broken if you simply want to save lives?

People are idiots and are misinformed. They think it would involve killing embryos that would become babies, but it doesn't really involve that. And even then there's some hypocrisy over it. They don't want them testing on frozen embryos, but those embryos are then destroyed later on. Quite stupid if you ask me.

To further the right-wings attempts at preventing stem-cell research, they gave bad embryos that they knew weren't good to scientists. When scientists failed to get any results, the right-wing claimed it meant embyronic stem cells were not viable. Of course, the scientists got really frustrated, and have had to depend on private firms.

Embryos aren't even attained from pregnant women all the time, and aren't needed in one method. They are just grown from regular human cells. Once an embryo is successfully grown from a human skin cell extraction, for example, scientists could start cloning stem cells. If you think about it, only a few embryos would be needed.

Am I for it? Yes. Because the way it is done is not immoral and inhumane, unlike what evangelical right-wingers attempt to paint it as.

[Sea of Time]

This is exactly the point that the Democrats take, Andross (in prevention of quoting that super-long post). Stem Cell Research is not as bad as it seems to the everyday person. You have to do your research.

[Tachyon360]

Geeze. Stem cell research is too vague a topic to really have a debate.

Embryonic stem cell research? No, it's not a good thing. Those stem cells are pretty delicate and thus somewhat useless in a practical sense. It's also worth mentioning that although embryonic stem cells have the potential to be specialized any sort of cell in theory, researchers have had limited success with it. Then there's the whole moral issue that I won't go into, since most have heard the same, old argument of it destroying human life. (On a side note, they've failed to get results even prior to Bush's restrictions and researchers in more liberal countries have yet to cough up results as well.)

Adult and child stem cells, however, are perfectly fine in my book and no religion is against it as far as I know, because it does no harm to anything. They're easier to get and there are enough varieties that many more tissues can easily be (and have been) created with them. Let's take the stem cells in baby teeth as an example. They're really quite durable and can survive a number of different environments without weakening and have been used to grow pig's teeth (with full-sized human teeth over the horizon). Another example would be a replacement jaw grown in a guy's back, made from his bone stem cells and coral.

If you want sources, look for them yourself, as I'm too lazy to hunt them down. Still, embryonic stem cell research is disgusting and of limited value IMO.

[Sea of Time]

Okay then, let's narrow it down to Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

[Andross]

Tachyon360, on Dec 7 2004, 12:53 AM, said:

Geeze. Stem cell research is too vague a topic to really have a debate.

Embryonic stem cell research? No, it's not a good thing. Those stem cells are pretty delicate and thus somewhat useless in a practical sense. It's also worth mentioning that although embryonic stem cells have the potential to be specialized any sort of cell in theory, researchers have had limited success with it. Then there's the whole moral issue that I won't go into, since most have heard the same, old argument of it destroying human life. (On a side note, they've failed to get results even prior to Bush's restrictions and researchers in more liberal countries have yet to cough up results as well.)

It's not a theory. The stem cells are used to go into the creation of all tissues. Now, if you mean theory as in if they would work in injections into humans, that's a different story.

In addition, the field is very new. The first idea of cells only developed in the 1600s. 300 years later, the knowledge of the cell was virtually complete, but even then, DNA was unknown. It took 50 plus years after the discovery of DNA to master it. To expect stem cell research to immediately show results is fool-hardy. It will take another few decades to get a procedure down, because no one has ever attempted such a thing. The field has been around for less than a decade after all.

[Ravenblade]

i could sit here and complain that its wrong to tamper with Gods creations etc, etc, but to be honest the human race is an abomination as it stands and so if this will truly help people then i guess its good by me.

[Sea of Time]

abomination? How dare you! I guess we're sub-perfect, but abomination?

Edit: Didn't mean any insult by this, just joking with ya.

[Tachyon360]

I'd also like to add that I'm against in vitro fertalization and human cloning (yes, that includes taking a human skin cell nucleus and putting it into a cow egg cell that lacks a nucleus). I also believe that all currently existing viable embryos should be maintained until somebody wants them and all crippled lines destroyed. Many right-wingers agree. There goes your argument about them being destroyed either way, Andross, as right-wingers would fight for the above as well. You could argue my beliefs are BS, but that a whole different debate.

Anyhow, there has been reasonable success with adult stem cells and I belive that research should be continued. There's enough variety that even if embryonic stem cells are more versatile, adult stem cells may be more practical.

[Andross]

And here's a source that gives a timeline.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/stemcell...imeline_web.jpg

I'm actually more interested in seeing how stem cells could be used in AIDs research. It is possible that they could be used to create new blood cells, or maybe they could analyze the AIDs strain and see if there's a way to develop a white blood cell that could resist it.

Note that the above is so far off in the future, that you should not get your hopes up, but if stem cells are found to work when injected into adult humans...

[Elliott]

If it saves lives, and dosn't hurt anyone in the process, it's good.
Thats all I have to say on the matter.

[Kikuichimonji]

Stem cells, aren't they also found on a new born childs umbilical cord aswell?

Andross is right, DNA has only recently been "uncoded", it will take decades before anything can be really done with such knowledge. It's these mistakes we make now would help us to learn more no?

On the moral issues, like I said, is it wrong to save a life or make someone's life more worth for living?

[Tachyon360]

Andross, on Dec 6 2004, 08:04 PM, said:

Note that the above is so far off in the future, that you should not get your hopes up, but if stem cells are found to work when injected into adult humans...

They already have been. Just not embryonic stem cells. As I've said before, they've been used to create a jaw for a man that had his surgically removed. I'll find the source, but later, as I've gotta eat dinner right now.

[Nick Presta]

I have done several ISP on Stem Cell research and for the benefit of science, yes, it is quite good.

But in terms of the Christian faith, no.

[Kikuichimonji]

Well actually, I'm part christian and I don't see anything wrong

but I guess it depends on whether you are of strong faith and what exact faith you follow

[Tachyon360]

Here we go. It's a bit old, and I haven't found any new info about the guy's jaw, but it's worth considering. What's the point of toying around with an unproven technology that many people are against anyway when you can advance something that has already shown its potential?

The only reason researchers are studying embryonic stem cells, as far as I know, is because they're versatile. Tell me, what's the point of versatility when you've got enough different kinds of cells to get the same result with greater ease?

And Kiku, you want to save lives, right? If that's the case, why delay it by putting more resources into embryonic stem cell research (dang, there's gotta be a shorter term) when you can begin serious, wide-scale testing of adult stem cells?

Andross, on Dec 6 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

It's not a theory. The stem cells are used to go into the creation of all tissues. Now, if you mean theory as in if they would work in injections into humans, that's a different story.

I thought it was fairly obvious I meant using cultured embryonic stem cells in vivo. Well, it doesn't matter now, as I just made it clear what I meant.

[Sea of Time]

It's good to see everyone taking part in this discussion. This will be one of the most important topics of our time, and we must take it seriously.

[Tachyon360]

That and genetic engineering. I've never liked the idea of tampering with the result of billions of years of evolution, but Jeffrey M. Smith hits the nail on the head in "Seeds of Deception." I figured GM crops were dangerous, but the stuff he mentions in that book is just downright scary. (BTW, don't say the right-wingers are the ones scaring the people against GM crops, Andross, as it's the Republican party that supports a GMO policy with more holes than Swiss cheese).

The direction biotechnology is headed is grim, especially when the jerks running the world care only about making a quick buck today and damn the long-term consequences. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it aught to be drawn far behind where we're standing now. Embryonic stem cell research, cloning research, and genetic engineering need to be oughtright banned and kept under extremely tight restriction for the foreseeable future. Instead of genetic engineering of crops, I believe more research aught to be put into making organic hydroponics, aeroponics, and aquaculture feasible and economical.

Yeah, so my post isn't completely relevent to the immediate discussion, but it's related and still relevent in the real world.

[Sea of Time]

I did a science project on cloning which opened my eyes a bit as far as a future human cloning project. In years to come, science may open doors to us that have we have never seen in our wildest dreams. We must use this new 'power' responsibly, or risk the entire human race.

[Andross]

Tachyon360, on Dec 7 2004, 11:51 PM, said:

(BTW, don't say the right-wingers are the ones scaring the people against GM crops, Andross, as it's the Republican party that supports a GMO policy with more holes than Swiss cheese).

I never even mentioned genetic engineering, and I don't even support it. I think it's STUPID. Why? Because there's no point! So what if you're kid isn't going to grow up to be Brad Pitt? STFU and stop being so friggin' superficial!

Embryonic stem cells also have relatively no link to genetic engineering. They'd be used to cure people. And by the time there is a feasible way to use 'em, the ability to clone or replicate only stem cells will probably be possible, so there would be no need for human embryos to be used.

Adult stem cells may be more feasible, but that has only been a 20 year area too, so continued research and experimentation is needed.

[Tachyon360]

Meh, I just arbitrarily picked your name out of a bunch of left-wingers. Most liberals where I live are strong supporters of it. Think nothing of it.

The way its related is that they both fall under biotech, which needs serious reform throughout all its fields IMO.

[Andross]

Tachyon360, on Dec 8 2004, 02:15 AM, said:

Meh, I just arbitrarily picked your name out of a bunch of left-wingers. Most liberals where I live are strong supporters of it. Think nothing of it.

The way its related is that they both fall under biotech, which needs serious reform throughout all its fields IMO.

I'm not anywhere near left-wing or liberal. I am centrist in economic views and very moderate liberatarian in social views. (I think it was (-0.2, -1.8) for my political compass thing)

[Tachyon360]

You seem pretty liberal morally and socially (and the political compass is fairly inaccurate anyway). Regardless, this really is a pointless thing to argue about. Points made, let's move on.

Back on topic, you mentioned that you could take a skin cell nucleus and put it into an egg cell with the embryo removed. There are a number of inherent flaws with that (not to mention, if it would be that simple, cloning wouldn't be too difficult either.

The first major flaw is that genes decay over time and many become activated and inactivated over the course of the organism's life span, to put it in simple terms. The zygote wouldn't be as hardy as naturally-created ones and tissues ultimately created from it would be extremely likely to have major problems if not outright fail.

The second major flaw with that is the egg itself. Human eggs are somewhat hard to come by. Cow and pig eggs are a dime a dozen, on the other hand. So researchers often just use those. Now think about it for a second. You have a cell, who's organelles and biochemical pathways are made from and for a certain set of genes. Now you go and replace the original genome with a foreign set of genes, coding for different proteins or variations in previously-present proteins. Are there going to be incompatibilities? Most definitely. Will at least a few proteins form incorrectly or simply fail to form at all. Yup. Will new proteins form that aren't supposed to be present? Not unlikely.

Suppose the scientist would have enough foresight to use a human egg cell. Does that solve at least the previous problem? Nope. Primate eggs (especially human eggs) are really sensitive to having their nuclei removed and replaced. The chromosomes get split around helter-skelter rather than dividing evenly and the cells simply die after a few divisions.

So what does that leave? Human embryos created by fusing a sperm with an egg - the very thing so many people are against. You can't use the argument that people are misinformed idiots. People in general know the basic process that goes on. What supporters of embryonic stem cell research fail to grasp is that many people believe that a human life is created and destroyed in the process. All in the name of the so-called "science" (you can't honestly call the field true science, since most of it is very crude guesswork and a big rush to be the first to complete a task without the time and care it takes to develop a reliable, consistent procedure) that researchers chasing after rainbows keep trying to shove down people's throats.

Lastly, you still haven't answered my question. Why bother screwing around with embryonic stem cells when you have hardier, more proven, and vastly more readily available child and adult stem cells? What advantage is there to embryonic stem cells over other stem cells? Let's make it easier by giving an example. Why try to make a bone out of embryos when you can use bone stem cells from the very person you're making the bone for for? While it is true that we have yet to create every kind of tissue from adult stem cells, new advances are coming along pretty well and embryonic stem cells have shown far less potential. I personally see absolutely no advantage to embryonic stem cells whatsoever.

[Andross]

I'm not a supernerd and did a whole research on how an embryo comes from a skin cell, but that's just a method I heard that could be done, so don't attack me on it.

And I already said adult stem cells are feasible. There merely needs to be more focused research. But that won't happen for a while, because the National Science Association (or w/e the gov't supported one was) got its budget slashed by 100+ million. That means less research on stem cells, energy alternatives, and the 'ultimate question' will have to wait for an answer (like it would even happen, but we could still learn a lot) *sigh*

[Tachyon360]

I'm not attacking you. You gotta lighten up and not take things personally. I was only trying to steer the thread back on topic.

Guus frah-bah, guus frah-bah. C'mon, say it with me. Guus frah-bah, guus frah-bah. There, don'chya feel better now?

[Andross]

You lost me Guus.
I'm gonna get sleep now.

[Kikuichimonji]

I know this is off topic but I'd like say one thing on genetic engineering

It could help families with a history of genetic disease, thus saving lives. But the whole "designer" baby thing, like you said, is wrong.

[Sea of Time]

Tachyon360, on Dec 7 2004, 11:14 PM, said:

Guus frah-bah, guus frah-bah. C'mon, say it with me. Guus frah-bah, guus frah-bah. There, don'chya feel better now?

Anger Management was an awesome movie. Sorry to get off topic.

[My Best Wishes]

i didn't vote i have mixed feelings, i see thats its good to help cure diseases especcilaly now when my nan is very sick but its killing an unborn child which alot of people will portest about. my teahcer in year 5 did a senairo

caleb suffers from livethreanting disease so they kill unborn jake to save caleb. caleb thinks *beauty i'm saved* but jake doesn't have a say in anything, he mgith not want to be killed to save caleb.

i don't know what side i am but i dislike most scientists.

science and religons are not at odds, science is simply to young to understand

[gsninja]

Stem Cell Research...

It's good because you can save other people using the stem cells. On the other hand, I don't really like it because the research comes at the expense for a human life...

[Sea of Time]

As I can't remember who pointed out earlier, they don't have to kill somebody to perform stem cell research. They need dna from dead skin, for example.

[My Best Wishes]

i thoguht thaat they gatherd embreos? and extratced them to experiment with. and also i thought that embreos where unborn people or something

[Sea of Time]

Oops, my bad. I'm thinking of something totally different. The world of science befuddles me. Yeah, you're right. Embryos are found in the fetus.

[My Best Wishes]

uhhh fetus? what is that? is it like the womb or something

[Sea of Time]

That's exactly what the fetus is. Good guess!

[My Best Wishes]

so its just another name? we just did parts of the body in health.

so whats the diff between embreos and the eggs?

[Sea of Time]

You're going too deep for me. Maybe someone else will come and answer your question. I have no idea.

[Tachyon360]

Kikuichimonji, on Dec 8 2004, 01:27 PM, said:

I know this is off topic but I'd like say one thing on genetic engineering

It could help families with a history of genetic disease, thus saving lives. But the whole "designer" baby thing, like you said, is wrong.

Its not that simple. The whole field of genetic engineering is based the obsolete principle of "one gene, one protein." So far, all we know is that it's not as simple as "swap that gene, splice that gene, viòlá" due to the simple fact that genes overlap, genes almost always code for at least two proteins (usually 3 or 4), and genes often have various effects on each other's expression. Even if you knew the faulty gene causing the bulk of the problem, it's very possible that fixing it would do anything from nothing to setting off a cascade of problems.

The biggest concern I have, however, with any form of genetic engineering is that it breaks trans-species barriers and gives us some level of control over what nature created for over 3 billion years.

I believe it's something best left untouched.

Side note: the stages go go from Sperm+Egg to Zygote to Blastocyst to Embryo to Fetus.

[Mycarayne]

Im all for it. However, Im not very well educated in the subject. But from the little knowladge I have on it, I say: "Why not?"
Its saving lives. Nuff said.

[Tachyon360]

Y'know, there's a reason why I have a mouse pad with the words, "Bang Head Here" encircled. If you're not educated, be a bit more proactive and educate yourself. There's no way you can make reasonable decisions without knowing what's going on.

Embryonic stem cell research does not save lives. Research in and of itself doesn't do that (but you probably meant the actual clinical use of embryonic stem cells). Either way, it can't save lives, at least not with our current understanding of cells. Any fair understanding of how the body really works at that level is a long, long way away.

So let's go back to my major point once again. You want to save lives, right? Research takes a while, yes? With me so far? Good. Why delay saving lives by chasing rainbows when you can focus on advancing adult stem cell research (which is at a somewhat more advanced stage than embryonic stem cell research)?

Indeed, both paths will drag on for years before anything significant can come of it, but think of it this way: embryonic stem cell research destroys human life along the way. Furthermore, adult stem cells are already used in some cases (such as rebuilding bone marrow after high-dose chemotherapy destroys it) and have been used to create useable tissue (such as that replacement jaw grown for that German man I mentioned).

[Sea of Time]

I think Tachyon is right, I should go educate myself more on the subject before I try to post about it.