I The Sol Sanctum
#1
Posted 03 May 2004 - 06:46 PM
#2
Posted 03 May 2004 - 06:51 PM
Saturos and Menardi has just sufferred great losses from Sol Sanctum, their so-called "raiding" party (which actually had noble intentions). The Elders of Vale had always gone against them and didn't support them... they couldn't have two Valean boys telling that to the village!
It was dangerous enough as it is...
Killing might have been too far... but they probably had to... it was pretty sad when I learned the truth in GS2...
Besides... they never killed Isaac or Garet -_-
#3
Posted 04 May 2004 - 10:01 AM
#4
Posted 04 May 2004 - 01:44 PM
#5
Posted 04 May 2004 - 04:00 PM
You may have hated Saturos and Menardi for that, but when you play GS2 and realize their original intentions... you can't help but admire them (at least I did... so noble and selfless!)
#6
Posted 04 May 2004 - 06:26 PM
Golden Legacy, on May 4 2004, 11:00 PM, said:
Yes. Attacking 14 year olds that had no idea what you were talking about is so noble. And stealing and taking hostages is noble too. People like that are my heroes. </sarcasm>
Seriously, they could have tried other methods first. Well, at least they saved Felix, Kyle, and Jenna's parents (whatever their names where). So they aren't totally evil. I just think that their methods are questionable.
#7
Posted 04 May 2004 - 06:30 PM
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I suppose they wouldn't mind beating up a bunch of young adolescents and such (btw, I explained why they might have done that in a previous post). But yeah, they had noble intentions... and along the way got to be sort of evil...
another way to explain it is being "rough around the edges", Saturos and Menardi...
#8
Posted 04 May 2004 - 06:33 PM
#9
Posted 04 May 2004 - 06:36 PM
#10
Posted 04 May 2004 - 07:04 PM
#11
Posted 05 May 2004 - 02:33 PM
Mabey!
#13
Posted 06 May 2004 - 06:55 AM
#14
Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:41 PM
Also if you go around at the beginning, you'll find books and people that tell you not to use you Psynergy around visitors because they are supposed to protect the secret of Psynergy.
#15
Posted 06 May 2004 - 05:30 PM
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Which is precisely my point! Had Saturos and Menardi's raiding party and intentions been discovered by the people of Vale, they would have had to take action against them! Which is probably the reason they had to attack Isaac and Garet... to prevent them from spreading any information that they had heard!
I, of course, am not totally supporting what they did, but they had to do it. Besides, Weyward was at stake!
#16
Posted 06 May 2004 - 05:40 PM
Honestly, you should be able to know why they've done it. Saturos and Menardi are enraged by the vauge consequences of Weyard's slow, painful destruction; starting with Prox. They were probably really worried and at the same time annoyed by the loss of their homeland to some stupid, eroding rift to the north. They both have overriding pride; like Saiyans have. It just blinds them, making them rush into dangerous obstacles without even thinking of a dire plan. Just think of Garet; he rushes into things without even deciding, believing matter over mind just does the trick anyway.
#17
Posted 06 May 2004 - 05:46 PM
I agree with everything you said, so I hope it was the latter... they did it for Weyward, an action that would later have been redeemed for the sake of Weyward... poorly worded, sorry...
#18
Posted 06 May 2004 - 07:09 PM
Golden Legacy, on May 6 2004, 07:46 PM, said:
Neither, I'm just shedding some light on this matter, although I do agree on what you've said before. Sorry for the inconveince
#19
Posted 06 May 2004 - 07:15 PM
#20
Posted 07 May 2004 - 09:05 AM
#21
Posted 07 May 2004 - 01:42 PM
#22
Posted 07 May 2004 - 03:24 PM
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If you go to Prox, some people there say (or if you mind read them) that the Elders of Vale REFUSED TO LISTEN. That implies that there had been eariler attempts (before Saturos and Menardi) to try and convince them. Saturos and Menardi only set out toward Sol Sanctum knowing that it was the only way...
So obviously, they did care about Weyward eroding. It's just that, in the first game, the unleashing of Alchemy seemed preposterous...
#23
Posted 07 May 2004 - 07:09 PM
Golden Legacy, on May 7 2004, 05:24 PM, said:
All quite true. Yet, if the elders never listened, they probably had good reason not to unleash Alchemy; it's because the Wise One said so.
If you had a giant, floating rock with one eye, and it told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? Honestly, the Wise One would've solved the problem right before Alchemy was sealed away, just like he did to Alex; give the power to someone else (like Isaac for instance).
#24
Posted 07 May 2004 - 07:16 PM
Golden Legacy, on May 7 2004, 10:24 PM, said:
I highly doubt they even knew, and I will find the evidence to prove it. I know it's in there somewhere!
#25
Posted 08 May 2004 - 03:53 PM
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I totally agree with you, Zaffa Dot Xom. If you recall, at the end of TLA, Kraden said that the Wise One wanted to "give a test"... to see if the heroes had the courage to overcome all the means and save Weyward. I have to say, when I heard that, I was touched...
and mjc0961... I'm waiting :P
#26
Posted 08 May 2004 - 05:56 PM
#27
Posted 08 May 2004 - 06:11 PM
#28
Posted 09 May 2004 - 02:25 PM
#29
Posted 09 May 2004 - 03:09 PM
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They knew all right. If you would recall from GS1, Saturos and Menardi (and Alex, for that matter), said that Kraden was essential to their quest (which was to free Alchemy and SAVE Weyard). They had to kidnap him due to his knowledge. The only reason they decided to take Jenna with them was because of Isaac and Garet: since they (the Valeans) believed that unleashing Alchemy would DESTROY Weyard, Saturos and Menardi knew that they would come after them...
And plus, Felix did know about Weyard eroding away :blink:
#30
Posted 09 May 2004 - 04:20 PM
And your "they need Kraden for his knowlegde" thing doesn't help you. Because, like I just said, Kraden knew nothing about Weyard eroding, so if they did know, how could Kraden help them? The answer: he couldn't. They probably just wanted someone smart to help them with the puzzles. Because like Alex said, they couldn't solve the puzzles by themselves. Hell, they couldn't even move two statures to create a hole to drop a third statue into. Honestly, how hard is that to do? Not very.
#31
Posted 09 May 2004 - 04:58 PM
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how do we know it was in TLA? Felix and Kraden, it's obvious, knew at the VERY LEAST the beginning of TLA about Weyard eroding. Remember, from the end of GS1? "The beacons must still be lit" or something of the sort... Felix said that after the defeat of Saturos and Menardi (before they fused). Why didn't he just concede? Because he knew about Weyard eroding! How exactly he found out (he and Kraden) is anybody's guess (GS3 anybody?)
#32
Posted 09 May 2004 - 07:11 PM
Golden Legacy, on May 9 2004, 11:58 PM, said:
No. Because they were holding his parents hostage. THAT is why Felix opted to continue the quest at the end of GS1. NOT because he knew about Weyard's impending doom. But because HE WANTED TO FREE HIS PARENTS!
#33
Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:16 AM
#34
Posted 10 May 2004 - 02:15 PM
#35
Posted 10 May 2004 - 04:35 PM
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What do you mean? All throughout Prox (including the Village Elder and the "mayor"), they talk about how their civilization was once powerful and great! Whether they could live like the Lemurians did is anybody's guess, but clearly, when Alchemy was commonplace, they were a thriving people.
Which brings me back to Saturos and Menardi. That was their intention. Do you remember the envoys the elders of Prox sent? Well, the mission of Saturos and Menardi in Sol Sanctum was the response to Vale's rejection of Alchemy, and the fact that it was necessary for Weyard's sake...
#36
Posted 10 May 2004 - 06:19 PM
#37
Posted 11 May 2004 - 09:40 AM
My opinion has taken a complete 180 in this section.
#38
Posted 11 May 2004 - 01:36 PM
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All of Weyard was a great civilization with Alchemy. What I meant was the slow passing of time and other effects of Lemuria (drink this water! you're healed!)
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1. What the hell is an envoy?
2. There still is no proof that Saturos and Menardi knew anything about the state of Weyard. Even if they didn't want to claim the power of Alchemy for themselves, the only other thing that they could have hoped to do was stop Prox from going off of Gaia Falls. But that still doesn't justify their methods.
#39
Posted 12 May 2004 - 05:51 AM
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Yeah, but Agatio and Karst said that prox was especialy powerful and I'd beleive that prox and Lemuria where the super powers of their time and mabey they both had those cool psynergy powered boats.
Mabey!
#40
Posted 12 May 2004 - 01:36 PM
#41
Posted 12 May 2004 - 03:37 PM
#42
Posted 12 May 2004 - 05:49 PM
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1. What the hell is an envoy?
2. There still is no proof that Saturos and Menardi knew anything about the state of Weyard. Even if they didn't want to claim the power of Alchemy for themselves, the only other thing that they could have hoped to do was stop Prox from going off of Gaia Falls. But that still doesn't justify their methods.
An envoy... think of it as a messenger. The Elders of Prox sent out a few to negotiate with the people of Vale about the Elemental Stars and Alchemy... and the declining state of Weyard.
Doesn't justify their methods? The sake of Weyard is at stake! Drastic measures must be resorted to... Okay, I'll admit, kidnapping Jenna and holding Felix and her parents hostage in Prox... that might have been unnecessary, and cruel yes...
But in the end, they wanted to save Weyard. They never wanted the Power of Alchemy for themselves...
#43
Posted 12 May 2004 - 07:25 PM
#44
Posted 13 May 2004 - 08:53 AM
#45
Posted 13 May 2004 - 01:03 PM
EDIT: 1000 POSTS!!! PAR-TAY! BRING THE CONFETTI!
#46
Posted 13 May 2004 - 01:45 PM
Enoch, on May 13 2004, 03:53 PM, said:
What? Are you mentally handicapped? So they have a Lemurian ship. That means that they are shrinking? HELL NO! THAT'S NOT WHAT IT MEANS!!! Wow. That's the dumbest thing I've heard anyone say in this arugment so far. If you don't know what you're talking about, please, for the love of whatever religious entity you worship, shut the hell up. We are trying to discuss this intelligently.
And MW, we are debating why Saturos and Menardi wanted to bring back Alchemy. I believe that there are many reasons to say that they didn't know anything about the state Weyard was in at all and were only doing it for their benefit. Be it to steal the power of Alchemy for themselves, or just to save their own village. But I strongly believe that they didn't know anything about Weyard shrinking.
#47
Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:01 PM
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lol, sure MysticWarrior...
well, we are aruging about whether or not Saturos and Menardi knew about the declining state of Weyard, and whether they sought to unleash Alchemy for reasons of pure greed or in an attempt to save Weyard (or at the very least, Prox)
I say the latter (that they wanted to save Weyard) and mjc0961 says they wanted power (and I am still waiting to hear that evidence... I will have mine soon in the form of screenshots...)
and Congrats! 1000 posts! ^_^
#48
Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:40 PM
#49
Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:45 PM
#50
Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:49 PM
#51
Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:50 PM
mjc0961, on May 13 2004, 04:49 PM, said:
Like I said in another topic, it's for gameplay value.
#53
Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:57 PM
Anyways, I'm not the maker of GS, so how would I know?
#54
Posted 13 May 2004 - 06:00 PM
#55
Posted 13 May 2004 - 06:04 PM
#56
Posted 14 May 2004 - 01:52 PM
#57
Posted 14 May 2004 - 03:50 PM
Especialy when people have to resort to name calling.
#59
Posted 14 May 2004 - 09:04 PM
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hahahahahahahahaha :lol: that was almost funny :)
and you claim to have given evidence supporting your arguement. Where it is, one has yet to see (and don't give me anything about it being in a previous post... you have given no direct proof from the game).
I am collecting the evidence to support mine. I ask that you wait...
#60
Posted 15 May 2004 - 05:38 AM
#61
Posted 15 May 2004 - 11:15 AM
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I don't recall saying that (trying quoting exactly). And we know that Kraden had informed Felix of the true condition of Weyard, so Felix defintly (spelling?) knew about it, at least by the end of GS1, or the beginning of GS2.
And mjc? you have completely ignored EVERYTHING I said about Prox elders sending out envoys to Vale.
Also, I won't deny that Saturos and Menardi had underlying motives to their quest: their main intention was to save Prox, but they had other goals as well (which, as you have mentioned, may not have been "pure").
Can we at least agree there?
#62
Posted 15 May 2004 - 01:21 PM
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No. He didn't. And Kraden didn't. The first time Kraden even mentions talking to Felix is after you leave Champa. That is pretty far into GS2.
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That's because you never told me what this "envoy" is.
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I agree that they wanted to save Prox. But I do not agree that they knew about Weyard.
And as for that thing you asked me to quote...
the post you wanted me to quote said:
Golden Legacy, on May 9 2004, 11:58 PM, said:
No. Because they were holding his parents hostage. THAT is why Felix opted to continue the quest at the end of GS1. NOT because he knew about Weyard's impending doom. But because HE WANTED TO FREE HIS PARENTS!
#63
Posted 15 May 2004 - 05:20 PM
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... all this time I thought you meant they only wanted the Power of Alchemy ;) very strange...
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Kraden knew all right. At the beginning of TLA, in Venus Lighthouse, the conversation with Alex and Jenna... both Alex and Kraden mentioned the Golden Age of Man, and how Alchemy was the key. Clearly, Kraden knew about this, and it was his intention (he probably had changed his early perspectives about not lighting the beacon in the time frame between he being kidnapped in Sol Sanctum and Venus Ligththouse).
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here is a post I made explaining it (you might have missed it...)
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Doesn't justify their methods? The sake of Weyard is at stake! Drastic measures must be resorted to... Okay, I'll admit, kidnapping Jenna and holding Felix and her parents hostage in Prox... that might have been unnecessary, and cruel yes...
But in the end, they wanted to save Weyard. They never wanted the Power of Alchemy for themselves...
you find that out in Prox. And maybe they didn't know about Weyard (even though I still say so), but they defintely knew about Prox. And saving Prox would have meant saving Weyard (inadvertantly, in a sense)... Right?
#64
Posted 15 May 2004 - 07:01 PM
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Just because Alex knew that alchemy would create a golden age of man does NOT mean that he knew that Weyard was eroding and that Alchemy would save it. The same applies to Kraden.
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Yes, but they didn't know that. I actually doubt that they thought that lighting the beacons would save Prox... Why would they think that... Hmm... Perhaps they thought that with the power of Alchemy, they could their town from falling off of Gaia Falls? I dunno...
#65
Posted 15 May 2004 - 09:46 PM
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Actually, the opposite is true. In that same conversation, I think Alex says (I'm paraphrasing) "I want to see that age AGAIN". Clearly, he was implying that Weyard was declining, or at least not what it once was.
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They could WHAT their town? Prevent? Cause? j/k...
they may not have known about Weyard, but they were doing it, at least, for Prox... to make it rise again as a thriving civilization...
#66
Posted 16 May 2004 - 05:16 AM
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I don't think he said that. You'd better use exact quotes if you plan to quote them. Plus he was most likely BSing them so that they didn't find out his true plans of gaining the power of Alchemy.
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they may not have known about Weyard, but they were doing it, at least, for Prox... to make it rise again as a thriving civilization...
Yeah... Prevent....
But how did they know that lighting hte beacons would make their town thrive? Based on what Karst said on Jupiter Lighthouse, I think that the plan of the people of Prox might have been to use the power of Alchemy to conquer Weyard and then they could live wherever they wanted and not be stuck in some stupid little frozen town that was about to go off of the egde of the world!
#67
Posted 17 May 2004 - 08:59 AM
#68
Posted 18 May 2004 - 03:35 PM
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Precisely (thank you Enoch). Mjc, whether Saturos and Menardi had originally intended to save all of Weyard is debateable, but it is certain that they at least were doing it for Prox... unleashing Alchemy would have saved Prox and Weyard.
now, for what you requested...
In Venus Lighthouse (beginning TLA)
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Alex: Oh, so it's my turn to answer questions, is it? ;) Once, Alchemy was commonplace throughout this world... With this power, mankind worked up wonders across the land...
Kraden: The Lost Age of Man...
Alex: I want to see that world restored once again...
ok, Alex might have been covering up his true intentions (he probably was), but he was clearly implying that Weyard was diminishing and not what it once was. He was traveling with Saturos and Menardi as well.
#69
Posted 19 May 2004 - 09:27 AM
#70
Posted 19 May 2004 - 04:20 PM
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Yeah, I thought so too... I'm pretty sure Agatio or Karst mentioned (or somebody else mentioned about them) that they knew about this...
also, weren't Agatio and Karst the Proxians (spelling?) that continued Saturos and Menardi's mission? I think the only reason they appeared as the Antagonist in the game was due to revenge... but ultimately they would have wanted to salvage Weyard, or at least Prox...
#71
Posted 19 May 2004 - 06:52 PM
#73
Posted 02 June 2004 - 05:53 AM
#74
Posted 02 June 2004 - 06:35 PM
Possibly, Alex was afterwards... we are never sure when he decides to pursue the power of Alchemy (we know at least before Mercury Lighthouse)...
#75
Posted 04 June 2004 - 05:22 AM
Enoch, on Jun 2 2004, 07:53 AM, said:
:agitated: :( :!:
that sentence doesn't make sense- to rule over everyone IS evil
anyone mentioned Luna sanctum in the city of Anemos?
#76
Posted 04 June 2004 - 09:44 AM
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I wouldn't mind ruling over everyone, but that dousn't make me evil. I would intend on ruling fairly. That and Alex never harmed anyone. In fact he healed both parties at jupiter lighthouse. I think he would be more persuaded to preform good deeds for people.
#77
Posted 04 June 2004 - 06:40 PM
Somebody mentioned the fact that S&M didn't figure out the simple puzzle at SS.
They are Mars Adepts. Therefore it is questionable whether they are able to use move. You need move to move the stature into the hole :unsure: .
I prefer to think that S&M were more of the Tom Clancy Rainbow Six type of people. They simply didn't want the Vale Elders they had betrayed their trust. Mind reading one Valian tells you that the Elders had agreed to allow S&M to stay in the village prior to the eruption.
Quoting Alex (I love quoting Alex) S&M lacked the cranial capacity to figure out the secrets of the lighthouses. They kidnapped Kraden for this. Jenna was taken simply because they couldn't leave a witness. They rescued Felix and abducted Sheba so they could acess all of the lighthouses. In a way this helped later in the game for Sheba to uncover her past and Anemos.
Garet, Issac adn the Valians werent to know about the world collapsing because they rarely ventured outside of the village. Also, The Wise One had 'brought up' the village under the impression that alchemy was bad.
Can someone plz explain the following story twists:
What is the Stone of Sages Kraden mentioned in SS?
Why do Proxians look akin to lizards?
If the Mars star was cast into the lighthouse, how did the some of the Golden Sun end up in Issac?
#78
Posted 07 June 2004 - 09:36 AM
#80
Posted 08 June 2004 - 06:30 AM
#81
Posted 11 June 2004 - 01:36 PM
#82
Posted 11 June 2004 - 07:28 PM
This may sound strange, but I always believed that "Luna Sanctum" is actually Anemos Sanctum... the idea of Contigo and the Anemos People (the crater next to it...)...
And yeah, Saturos and Menardi were capable of solving the puzzles of Sol Sanctum... remember, they triggered that trap...
#83
Posted 11 June 2004 - 09:16 PM
I support your theory for Anemos, as it did become the moon, and yes it had a Djinni shrine in wait for the heroes.
You said S&M triggered the trap. Did you notice that if you pushed the Luna statues before the trigger mechanism, it activates a cutscene?
That was what caused the STORM in Vale. The ERUPTION was triggered by stealing the stars. You'd assume that the story would have ended a lot quicker if S&M had gotten ahold of the stars then, eh?
#84
Posted 16 June 2004 - 08:58 PM
Well, at any rate, we know that the Storm was triggered unintentionatelly (spelling?) three years before the Elemental Stars were taken from their dormant places of rest... that was Saturos and Menardi's original mission, sent by the Proxians, to revive Alchemy...
When Vale refused to comply...
#85
Posted 17 June 2004 - 11:28 AM
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I never seen that. I may have forggotten it, but is it some kinda secret?
#86
Posted 17 June 2004 - 03:34 PM
In Sol Sanctum, you can actually trigger the trap Saturos and Menardi unintentionally set off. Kraden will prevent it from being completed... you have to "un-trigger it"...
All I remember is the trap was, without deactivating it, had to do with those four statues... when you move one of them, a light shines and a portion of the picture of Sol changes to Luna...
Edit: I just realized... it should be "Luna changes to Sol"... sorry...
#87
Posted 18 June 2004 - 08:15 AM
Water Assassin, on Jun 5 2004, 01:40 AM, said:
Also, The Wise One had 'brought up' the village under the impression that alchemy was bad.
What is the Stone of Sages Kraden mentioned in SS?
Why do Proxians look akin to lizards?
If the Mars star was cast into the lighthouse, how did the some of the Golden Sun end up in Issac?
1. actually, Sheba never did find out about her past.....
2. he created vale, sol sanctum and mount aleph to protect the stars. he knew that alchamy wasn't bad, but the people where abusing it, so he sealed it away until people smartened up. when Isaac came, and passed his test, he knew that if he gave the power to Isaac, it would be in good hands.
as for your questions.....
1. the stone of sages is a stone that contains the power of alchamy. it is created when the lighthouses are lit. there isn't actually a physical stone in the game, though, so I don't know what's up with that..........
2. I donno. that's just like they are. I guess they're a different race.
3. his body absorbed the raw elemental power when the lighthouse was lit. this power was absorbed by all of them, reviving Felix and Isaac's parents. why isaac exclusively gets the power of alchamy, I do not know.
hope this has been helpful ;)
#88
Posted 18 June 2004 - 12:33 PM
#89
Posted 18 June 2004 - 07:42 PM
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Like El_Sethro stated, it's just how they are. It should be accepted. That thought never once crossed my mind...
remember Maha, in Garoh... he explained it so beautifully... I will quote him as soon as I can...
#90
Posted 19 June 2004 - 02:13 PM
#91
Posted 21 June 2004 - 02:41 PM
#93
Posted 21 June 2004 - 03:45 PM
#94 Guest_Shining_Dragon_*
Posted 21 June 2004 - 09:27 PM
#95
Posted 22 June 2004 - 07:00 AM
That's not possible!
#96
Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:17 AM
#97
Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:55 AM
#98
Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:58 AM
#99
Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:13 AM
But it kinda annoys me when games aren't consistant with themselves.
#100
Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:17 AM
#101
Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:28 AM
Hm, hm!
Now then, mabey it has to do with the fact that it is a valcano and valcanos can't go off anytime, it needs the right flow to erupt.
#102
Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:31 AM
#103
Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:35 AM
#104
Posted 22 June 2004 - 12:50 PM
THE CORRECT ANSWER!!!!
The trap wasn't triggered twice. One trap was triggered once, and another trap was triggered once.
The first trap is the statue trap. Saturos and Menardi DID NOT pull the big statue into the hole, and pushed the little statues into the squares, therefore causing the storm.
Isaac and friends took the elemental stars. Without their energy, the chamber began to collapse, therefore releasing lava.
I have shone light onto thou with great intensity!!!
#105
Posted 22 June 2004 - 01:01 PM
#106
Posted 23 June 2004 - 06:00 PM
#107
Posted 24 June 2004 - 09:23 AM
#108
Posted 25 June 2004 - 09:35 AM
#109
Posted 03 July 2004 - 09:58 PM
I still believe that Saturos and Menardi had originally good intentions. After Vale refused to accept Weyard's diminishing state (from the Proxian Envoys) the elders of Prox sent a group (with Saturos and Menardi) to retreive the elemental stars, light the beacons, and unleash Alchemy.
*whistles and walks away*