[Tifa]

I saw a program on TLC last night that sort of got me thinking about this topic: Is it right to take a life to save a life?

The program I saw was about an infant named Manar Maged. She was born with a rare condition called craniopagus parasiticus, meaning the embryo began to split into what would normally become an identical twin, but instead they remained joined. The second embryo then stopped developing. What developed was an infant with a second head connected to hers, their skulls and brains merged. The head of the second infant had no major organs. She had a spine, a few ribs, and a fully developed head. She was later named Islam, but through the course of the program, she was refered to as Manar's "parasitic twin". With no heart of her own, she needed Manar's to pump blood to her brain. Because of this extra strain, Manar's heart stopped six times.

It would seem that the only thing to do to save Manar's life would be to perform an operation to seperate Islam from her, which is exactly what they did. In doing so, Islam obviously died, but Manar survived. Although Islam technically fit into the category of a parasite, this just seems tragic to me. She was still a human being, unaware of what she was doing. She was a seperate person from Manar - sometimes awake while Manar was not, sometimes crying while Manar was not - with the ability to blink and suckle.

I think what bothers me the most is the fact that Islam was barely treated as a living person, except by the nurses at the children's hospital, until she had died. She wasn't even named until then. She was talked about as if she were a disease. She was just the "parasitic twin" and nothing more. Yes, given the choice between letting both twins die and sacrificing the one that couldn't survive no matter what to save the other, the choice should be obvious. It was the only choice. But it just doesn't seem right. I'm sure her mother and the doctors and nurses felt much more strongly about this than I do, but for an infant to be called a parasite and only be talked about as such...it's just not right. It doesn't even seem right to document something like this, but that's a seperate topic that I'm not going to get into.

So, I ask these questions:
Was the decision to kill Islam right or wrong?
What other cases have you heard of where life had to be taken to save life?
Were these cases right or wrong?

I welcome all other comments.

[Echo_djinn]

I see it as if they didn't not kill the other sister then both of them would have died. When you look at it in a logical stand point saving Manar would be the wise choice since since she was the healthier baby and will most likely have a better chance at life then the other one.

In a ethical stand point no it's not right for one to sacrifice herself to save another but when you look at the choices that they had I guess I would have done the same thing.

[Luna]

Was the decision to kill Islam right or wrong?
What other cases have you heard of where life had to be taken to save life?


-I can't really say if there's a right or a wrong. But maybe killing Islam was the more appropriate option. Otherwise, like Echo said, both of them would die instead of only one.

-A few weeks ago, I was randomly browsing through Wikipedia and found lots of articles on this. There's this one case I remember from last year where the twins were already 30+ years old and they wanted to separate...their hearts I think... There was lots of controversy because they could either save them both or kill them both during the operation. In the end, they both died.

There was also this other case in which the government ordered the family and the doctors to separate the twins when they were perfectly O.K. They still shared bodies but, there really wasn't a problem; like heart sharing. The doctors tried to refuse cause they knew there was a HUGE possiblity of killing one of them. In the end, that's what happened. And in this case, it was wrong.

[Elliott]

If they can save one then that's better than losing both.

[Sea of Time]

I saw the program as well, Tifa. From what I saw, I think it was right, they kill Islam. Islam would not have survived very long if he lived to grow older. It was a sad loss of life, but it was the right thing to do, because Manar had a better chance of living.

[Zxor]

Well, it depends for me. Like for stem cells, I am for it, I don't believe that those cells aare alive yet, well, because they aren't. And to save not only one life, but millions, yes it should happen. But taking the life on someone who is born, or throughout their lifetime, should not be taken away, even to save millions, only if that person sacrificed themselves. But like I said, it depends on the situation.

[Tifa]

Yes, it's obvious that Islam couldn't be saved, no matter what. That doesn't make it right to sacrifice her, but it was the only thing to do. A strange thought occured to me. When Manar becomes older, she'll have to find out what happened to Islam eventually. Could you imagine the shock of finding out that you were born with two heads? I feel sorry for her.

Now, when the government orders conjoined twins to be surgically seperated when there's nothing threatening their lives and one dies because of it, that's completely wrong on every level. Nothing can justify it.

I knew stem cells would come up sooner or later. I'm rather torn on that subject. On the one hand, an embryo isn't sentiant. It's not aware or intelligent yet. By using them, yes, millions of lives can be saved, diseases can be cured, and people can walk again. However, the embryo will develop into a living person. I can't say I would have liked to have been denied existance.

[Zxor]

Yes, but if you were taken away as an embryo, like you said, you have no thought or anything. So, when you "die", it would be better then a miscarrage for a mom, because they save millions of lifes. I am totally with stem cells. And when you are dead, and you can think, like your in heaven, for you people that believe in heaven, you would be able to say that you saved millions of lives.

[Tifa]

I can totally see that point of view, but I can't shake the feeling that it's still denying a life. In a hypothetical situation, let's say an embryo that would eventually become a person named, say, Mike, was used for stem cells. I can branch into about a million different situations after that. Just to note, I don't actually believe in a lot of this. These are hypothetical situations and I can make theories about the soul forever.

Mike's soul...

1. ...ascends to Heaven. This was fated to happen and he lives his eternal life there with the knowledge that he saved lives.

2. ...never exists because he is never alive.

3. ...simply never existed in the first place.

4. ...aquires no knowledge from Earth and remains in a mindless state eternally.

5. ...is immediately reincarnated.

6. ...is embittered by the decision to deny his life and is sent to Hell.

7. ...is sent to wherever he's meant to go. On Earth, events that would have involved him never happen. Say he's supposed to discover a cure for some disease or invent some kind of new technology. Now they will either never exist or not exist in time for whatever they're needed for. On a less drastic scale, the friends he would have made go through their lives not knowing that he was missing from them, and perhaps it will change them for the worse. Going in the other direction, perhaps the world would become a better place without him because he would have become the next Hitler.

[Zxor]

Ok, 1, would probably happen. 2-5, well, Mike...wouldn't care because, well, he's mindless. And 6, well, that wouldn't happen because he didn't do anything bad, he actually did something extremely good. And 7, is well, a sum of everthing. But, that is my opinion, and nobody else should care if it happens except the family of Mike, and especially the mom and dad. The other people don't know him, and well, a mindless baby who doesn't care should sttay alive instead of saving millions.
What all the people who don't want it to happen say that they would rather have 1 person live, and millions die, instead of 1 dieing, and millions living.

[gsninja]

I was thinking pretty much what ED said. It was most likely that both Manar and Islam would have died if they were still stuck together. At least one of them survived instead of both of them dying. However, it's still sad that Islam had to die so that Manar could live.
Nonetheless, I think that the decision was the right one.

[Zxor]

Well, to kill Islam wasn't wrong, yet it wasn't right either. it wasn't right that one got to live instead of the other, but one living is also better than the other.

[Tifa]

Zxor, on Sep 27 2005, 09:19 PM, said:

Ok, 1, would probably happen. 2-5, well, Mike...wouldn't care because, well, he's mindless. And 6, well, that wouldn't happen because he didn't do anything bad, he actually did something extremely good. And 7, is well, a sum of everthing. But, that is my opinion, and nobody else should care if it happens except the family of Mike, and especially the mom and dad. The other people don't know him, and well, a mindless baby who doesn't care should sttay alive instead of saving millions.
What all the people who don't want it to happen say that they would rather have 1 person live, and millions die, instead of 1 dieing, and millions living.

Like I said, I get that. I'm just trying to provide points from the other side. Replace your name with Mike's and see if you think any differently about it. I know I'm very torn to do that. It seems selfish to want to live at the cost of millions of lives, but it's hard to rid the thoughts of the people whose lives I've impacted from my head.

This brings up the classic question, "Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?" The obvious answer seems to be "yes", but when you and the people you care about are put in whatever the situation may be, your views can change.

[Zxor]

Well, if it was me, I wouldn't care if I "died" when I wasn't even alive. And it is not selfish if the person was born, to not die to save millions, but it is selfish for all the people in the world to think that a baby that isn't alive should not become alive to save more than millions.

[kate]

Hmm (ooo don't I sound deep) I've always found this to be a weird topic for me. I mean, I don't really know which side I'm on, because I keep arguing with myself. I know I feel really bad for the parents who had to make that decision. I mean, for one thing, let's not use life as an example. let's say you were denied something else you really enjoyed zxor (since you're on this site I'm gonna go with videogames)

now, videogames is much much much less serious then this, and I don't mean to disrespect the situation at all, but it's something you can relate to. personally, thinking of myself never having played videogames would be pretty bad, I'd feel like I was missing out on a whole different world. Yet on the otherhand, you're kinda right, because I wouldn't know what I was missing so I wouldn't be able to miss it (there's a really great isaac asimov story on this, I'll try and find the title) but the fact is you would know what I was missing out on. The pain for the parents to go through their lives knowing that they had a child who had the chance at life taken away from them must be beyond belief. In this specific instance though, I think it was right to remove Islam. I mean, they would've both died, so it's not like it's any different for her. Still, it's definitely not a choice I think I could make.

[Lightning Star]

And also, maybe Islam would've wanted that for her sister. Knowing that she would be a burden and life threatening, she wouldn't want to be alive and hurting her sister. more food for thought. D:

[el_Sethro]

I think that the decision to sacrifice Islam was obviously the right one; there was no way Islam would survive, but there was still hope for the other one. I'd have made the same choice in an instant. I do however, think that she should have been treated with more respect.

as for Stem Cells, really, every time you don't have sex, you're depriving a potential life. Sperm, the very seed of human life, have a lifespan of about 3 days (I think), after which they die and are replaced by new ones. every time you have sex, hundreds (or maybe thousands, I'm not sure) of sperm are realeased, but IF the egg is fertalized, only one of them will have made it; the rest of the sperm simply die. (according to #1, heaven's getting awfully crowded at this point)
One could argue that those are all potential lives that were never given the chance to live a full life, but yet if everyone was constantly having sex, there would be massive overpopulation, millions of people would die due to hunger and lack of resources, and billions of sperm would still die.
Therefore, we can't worry about every "potential life" that dies. it would be rediculous. things die, or are never born. it's natural. and I don't necissarily think that's a bad thing.

as for souls... I don't believe in them, so my concience is clear for that one. :P


(by the way, nice title. DT rules)

[Tifa]

I was waiting for someone to notice where the title came from. I just thought it seemed appropriate.

el_Sethro, you make some good points that I hadn't even considered. Personally, I believe in the existence of the soul, and in God and Heaven. But I don't believe that everything that is alive has a soul. The body is composed of trillions of cells, each of which could be broken down into even more atoms, and each could be considered to have an individual life. However, they make up one person with one soul. Sperm cells are each alive, but not "living" in the same sense as people. When they fertilize eggs, they do so because it's in their nature to do so, the same as it's the nature of platelets to close wounds.

A sperm cell is one of the..."ingredients" needed to create life. An egg is the other. They may both be living cells, but they don't have souls. When the embryo is created, the soul is created or reincarnated or whatever happens for the soul to become present happens and the life begins to grow. At this point, it can be considered as more than a "potential life". I guess it could be called an "eventual life".

So yes, life has the potential to be created at any moment through sex, but it's not always right to do so. More points need to be considered than just bringing a life into the world. It should only be between two people who love each other and are ready to raise and protect this new life. They have to be able to provide for it, feed it and show it love and attention. Otherwise, I think it's pretty safe to say it will grow up to be truly miserable. And if everyone just had sex because it was "wrong" to deny life, like you said, the world would be overpopulated and famine would pretty much annihilate the world.

At least that's what I think.

[Izar]

If islam was not going to survive, than the only alternative is, save who you can. If Islam had been able to speak, it would obviously be her descision.