[gsninja]

Er, because there are some people that aren't attracted to the opposite sex and are attracted to the same sex. It's natural because it's just their personal interests.

[My Best Wishes]

Personal Intrests are not natural, that's a choice of life.

[Caael]

Its still what they choose to do.

[Golden Legacy]

gsninja, on Feb 14 2007, 02:16 AM, said:

Er, because there are some people that aren't attracted to the opposite sex and are attracted to the same sex. It's natural because it's just their personal interests.

"Personal interests" can't, and shouldn't, override what's in nature. Just because it's a choice (which, for the record, means it is NOT natural and is AGAINST nature), doesn't make it justified.

[Someone Else]

Animals can be gay. It's just not as common as it is in humans.

One of the stray cats that roams my neighborhood is gay, I see him humping some of the other (male) cats around here on the rare occasion...

Where heterosexuality has a purpose in which a guy and a girl that are sexually attracted to each other can reproduce, homosexuality doesn't have a purpose (because obviously a guy and a guy or a girl and a girl can't have [real] sex). But that doesn't mean homosexuality isn't natural.

[Golden Legacy]

Actually, it does.

Let's take the evolutionary standpoint. Why would homosexuality have evolved "naturally" if it doesn't actually accomplish reproduction? What additional benefits would the rise of homosexuality in a species give to its survival? It hinders the growth and spreading of that species, and therefore is detrimental to its survival.

That's why it isn't natural by any means.

[Lightning Star]

I believe that everything in life happens for a reason. Think way back to when homosexuality all began...do you even know? No one does, though I know in leviticus in the old testament of the Bible, God says that man should not have sex with another man. Now, personally, I don't care what he says, but to make a point, Homosexuality has been around for a long time. Now, with all the religions and people homophobe's out there, if it were a choice, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be as common as it is today. Also, I do agree that it's not natural, BUT, think about this. It is human nature (Natural for humans) to be jealous and resentful, lie, hate, and be greedy. Now, by what you're saying, does that mean you think lying, jealousy and all those others are good because they're natural, but homosexuality isn't because it's not? what i'm trying to say is that what is natural isn't exactly good, so it doesn't make a good basis for reasoning at all.

[Someone Else]

Icy brought up a good point. Feelings like greed, hate, and lust towards other humans aren't necessarily "good" for mankind but it's still natural for humans to have those emotions.

I still don't see how homosexuality can be any different than those emotions.

[Caael]

" I'm not homophobic. See? I'm not scared of you"
Rotfl

[Wiflewood]

Ah, but GL, just because something isn't natural doesn't mean its necessarily bad. Things like Male Nipples - we have them; they're natural, but they're not used for anything, they don't benefit humankind in any way, but on the other hand they don't do any harm.

Here's a list of other evolutionary oddities like male nipples: Things that don't benefit the species, but are naturally occuring:
http://oolon.awardspace.com/SMOGGM.htm

[Caael]

Just because something isnt natural doesnt mean it's bad. Cars arent natural, electricity isnt natural, as far as I know it is created by us, but its not bad. It has benefitted us in many ways. I'm not saying homosexuality benefits us, but just because it isnt natural doesnt mean we should shun it.

Think of it like this: If you found out your best friend was ghay, would you suddenly not like them?

[Zexion]

watch, on Feb 14 2007, 03:30 PM, said:

Personal Intrests are not natural, that's a choice of life.

Choice, choice choice.

Seriously, don't you get tired of using that for almost every arguement?

A choice is influenced by many things, to like someone, factors such as the personality, looks, hobbies and interests, how you feel about him/her/it, etc. are played. In other words you are not in full control for this choice, cause if you are, none of those factors would matter, you'd just point your finger at a random person and declare you CHOOSE to like him/her/it. Now is that really how you choose the person whom you wanna spend the rest of your life with?

[Golden Legacy]

There seem to be two issues that people are not making distinct.

There is homosexuality - then there is *** marriage. Believe it or not, the two are actually different conflicts.

Whether you are like myself and belief that Homosexuality is not natural (for reasons I have posted before), or whether you accept it as a natural facet of humanity, this deals with the concept of being *** in general.

Now, a more complicated issue is *** marriage, which means basically whether or not to give homosexuals equal status in terms of marriage with heterosexual (or normal, imo) couples.


If you really believe they are different, consider the following:

"More than half of all people in the United States oppose *** marriage, even though three fourths are otherwise supportive of *** rights. This means that many of the same people who are even passionately in favor of *** rights oppose ***s on this one issue."

Acknowledge this hypocrisy, and then explain why people who believe in homosexuality don't all overwhelmingly vote or believe in allowing these ***s and lesbians to have equal status in marriage.

[Someone Else]

Are you changing the topic to avoid admitting defeat? :) (this is rhetorical)

I support gay marriage and think that being gay can be a natural thing, so I can't say why some of the people who are for gay rights would oppose gay marriage. I doubt that anyone else here could explain why either.

[Zexion]

Well your explaination of the homosexuality in general concept is not all that accurate.

It's not about wheither you believe it's natural or not, it's wheither or not you chooe to acknowledge its existance. Cause as far as I'm concerned, nature is an abstract concept. It has no will and purpose, and does not "intend" anything or "design" anything for a "purpose." Nothing is good just by being "natural" and nothing is bad just by being "unnatural" or "against nature's way".

Personally, I don't know whether homosexuality is caused by genes or by the mind. I think it's pretty simplistic to say it's either one or the other, maybe some homosexuality is genetic and some is mental. I suspect at least some is genetic, because homosexuality has been observed in liver flukes, an animal that is completely instinct-driven and has no mind that could cause it.

As for that hypocrisy you brought up, because marriage is a big issue. I'm sure the parents of Bob and Jan wouldn't automatically accept the marriage of Bob and Jan, even if they may have acknowledge the fact Bob and Jan had being going out. Same applys to accepting *** rights and *** marriage.

[Blink]

May as well chime in on what I've seen in the past page and a half.

Homosexuality is natural if it isn't natural. This is assuming you believe in evolution, otherwise "natural" goes out the window, and it becomes an argument of religious beliefs. Mutations are therefore natural, and the cause of many strange occurrences in life. Homosexuality is therefore, a mutation. It may be physical, as a mutation to one's sexual organs, or it may be mental, a problem with the way one's brain works. Actually, it might not be a mutation at all, it may be psychological, but if that's the case then there should be a way to reverse it, and that currently doesn't seem possible, so we'll stick with the first two ideas for now.

If it is a physical mutation, there's no way around it, because your body will develop around it. For that person, it then becomes natural, because natural is normal, and to them, that's what's normal.

If it's a mental mutation though, then there may be surgery that can be performed to change the way your brain works. This would mean your brain had mutated to a different form from the norm, which is how (according to evolution) our line of species changed paths from that of modern apes. This would mean brain mutations were an encouraged experiment, because it could lead to an even smarter race of beings.

Is homosexuality normal? It's not the standard, that's for certain, but I don't think, looking back on how we got to where we are today, that it's too radical a change from anything we've experienced as a race before. So yeah, I think it's pretty solid that it would be considered "normal." We're just not used to it yet, as it's only now being exposed.

[Neon]

watch, on Feb 14 2007, 05:46 AM, said:

"it comes as totally natural."

How. How is being attracted to the wrong sex natural is any circumstance?

I'm singling you out again because this is a common mistake that people make.

When we say it's 'natural' we mean that the person didn't make a conscious decision that they wanted to be ***. They are genuinely attracted to the same sex. Obviously it isn't how it is meant to be, but it is natural in the sense that they were born/developed that way.

[Caael]

Hahaha, yes, homosexuality is genetic xD

[Sea of Time]

Some guys just can't keep their mouth shut.

Tim Hardaway said:

'“You know, I hate *** people, so I let it be known. I don’t like *** people and I don’t like to be around *** people, I’m homophobic. I don’t like it. It shouldn’t be in the world or in the United States.”

Should former sports stars be shunned for displaying free will? Because you certainly won't be seeing Hardaway at any NBA gala dinners in the near future.

[Zexion]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Shunned? Why? I don't see why anyone need to be shunned for having free will, and I don't see how former sport stars are any special. They can believe what they want, but that statement you quoted was mainly based on opinion, and no actual facts supportings. He can have as much of those thoughts as he want, but without facts, it's irrelevent to debates.

What I'm saying is, wheither you think homosexuality is wrong or wheither you think cows are from the alien planet of Barnark, you are entitled to you're own believe. But you may not revolke other's right or belief solely base on such belief(without facts supporting it), no matter who you may be.

[Wiflewood]

A bit off-topic, but I really don't see why if a celebrity says something radical everybody makes a big deal out of it. If I said "I hate ***s", no one would give a damn. If some random sports personality says "I hate ***s", suddenly they're public enemy number one.

And on the issue of Homosexuality/Homosexual marriage, I don't get why people would say "Yes I think its fine to be ***, I have nothing against ***s", and then be opposed to them getting married; it just doesn't make any sense.

[Elliott]

Because marriage is an institution founded on the principle of the coming together of a male and female in holy matrimony. For two males or two females to get "married" is making a mockery of everything marriage stands for. That's why civil partnerships or whatever they're called is becoming a much more viable option, as it lets homosexuals have all the same rights as married couples (more or less) but without calling it "marriage".

[Golden Legacy]

^ Exactly what Agatio said, couldn't have said it better or simpler than that.

[Split Infinity]

Wiflewood, on Feb 23 2007, 04:14 AM, said:

A bit off-topic, but I really don't see why if a celebrity says something radical everybody makes a big deal out of it. If I said "I hate ***s", no one would give a damn. If some random sports personality says "I hate ***s", suddenly they're public enemy number one.

Because they're actually publicised. Also, people are supposed to look up to them, and by making a controversial statement as such, it throws all that out the window. Not to mention that people simply adore gossip.

[gsninja]

That's the biggest downside to being a celebrity. You need to put up with so much nonsense from the media.

The point Agatio made about two ***s getting married is as accurate as it can get. I actually makes a lot of sense to tolerate homosexuality but not want the homos to get married. To most people, marriage is a very sacred event, and ***s participating in it pretty much violates the holy stance that a marriage really stands in.