[Golden Legacy]

Just curious, what do you think of mathematics? Is it purely a human concept (create), or does it actually exist and underlie much of the phenomena of the universe (discover)?

[Platinum Sun]

Without math, everything will still act in the way it does, humans would just have no way to explain it. Math was created to govern our perceptions of the physical world. Within those limits it holds great sway, but it is only an invented concept.

[Toasty]

Math was discovered, in a sense, but also created. It was already there, but in a way, it wasn't. Math and physics govern absolutely everything that goes on in the universe, yet at the same time, if we didn't know of it, everything would still exist and operate the same way.
Therefore I believe more that it was discovered, and through it, other discoveries were also made. Though equations, which are math, were created.

[Neon]

It was created. As a model for understanding, recording and predicting events.

[Caael]

They cant blame everything on god. They needed something new to explain things. So they invented Math and Physics.

[Platinum Sun]

Caael, on Oct 18 2006, 09:20 AM, said:

They cant blame everything on god.

Some people can... :P TOASTY!!
But that's besides the point.

[TheEnglishman]

I agree with Toasty. We kind of created it, yet it would exist even if we never brought it up. I guess it depends on your view. It's an interesting question though. Very thought provoking GL.
*Ponders the meaning of life*

[Golden Legacy]

Well, think about this issue on the most basic level.

Picture this: There are two stars.

Yep, that's all. Very simple example, right? Now then, does the fact that there are two stars, is that something that's naturally there, or do we have to proclaim that "there are two"?

[Platinum Sun]

A todler that dosn't know how to count can look at two stars and see the same thing that everyone else can see, it's all a difference in perception.

[FlamingDuck]

Geez, you people are confusing.

Personally, I think of math like I think of time. It was something that was created to help man better understand and organize life.

[Platinum Sun]

We did not create time, nor was time created for us. Time existed long before humans did and will continue to exist long after we are gone. This is a good analogy, it just supports the point opposite the one you're trying to make.

[Eugine]

Hm,
I can't write what I'm thinking, but I'll try.

We did not create time itself, but we created a way to measure time.
We did not create the calculations the universe carried out, but we created Matematics to calculate the calculations of the universe.
We did not create the laws of the universe, but we created Physics & Matematics to understand the laws...
Basically, I agree with Neon and Toasty.

[Neon]

There are two stars, of course, but we define the collection of independant objects as a number or sum :P.

THis is so hard to explain >.<

maths doesn't simply exist, it's an observation.

[TheEnglishman]

Eugine, on Oct 19 2006, 06:09 AM, said:

Hm,
I can't write what I'm thinking, but I'll try.

We did not create time itself, but we created a way to measure time.
We did not create the calculations the universe carried out, but we created Matematics to calculate the calculations of the universe.
We did not create the laws of the universe, but we created Physics & Matematics to understand the laws...
Basically, I agree with Neon and Toasty.

That's prorbably the best way to describe it. We create the things to understand the stuff we don't even do.

[FlamingDuck]

Platinum Sun, on Oct 18 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

We did not create time, nor was time created for us. Time existed long before humans did and will continue to exist long after we are gone. This is a good analogy, it just supports the point opposite the one you're trying to make.

Yeah, I realized that right after I posted. I just didn't feel like editing it. I think I was trying to say what Eugine just said.

[Mindpatch]

Mathematics is a human made measuring tool for quantity and quality.

:D

[Toasty]

....Quit makeing me look dumb!! ......<.<;;....>.>;;....*looks in dictionary for really big word*

Watch the spam and useless posting. - GL

[PDM]

I'm a dumbass, but I see it like this;

We did not create oil and fuel in reality, but ways in which to harness it and it's abilities. I think the same thing goes for mathematics.

[Mindpatch]

We didn't create oil, but we did create fuel. Fuel is a measure(not taken litteraly) tool for benzine etc.

[Neon]

I would have said fuel is a term for oil derivatives that we use in combustion :)

[Platinum Sun]

Fuel is actually a much broader term than that. It's any substance from which exothermic reactions can draw chemical energy.

[Neon]

hmm, true. I wasn't thinking when I was writing that, since lots of things can be used as 'fuel' not just organic compounds (though they are most common because it's so damn easy to react them with oxygen and get loads of energy)

[Hotshot101]

It is pure human concept the way i see it.

[PDM]

Thanks for taking advantage of my natural stupidity by pointing out I was either scientifically or grammatically incorrect.

[Hotshot101]

Please sstop putting down yourself. (i know kinda gets on my nerve when people do that). You keep doing that you will start to really think of yourself that way.

[pHantOm]

Hotshot101, on Nov 16 2006, 10:10 PM, said:

Please sstop putting down yourself. (i know kinda gets on my nerve when people do that). You keep doing that you will start to really think of yourself that way.

No offense to you man, but that was possibly the stupidist thing I've ever heard. LOL It does annoy me that people do that though only because its asking for a pitty party.

As for mathematics, they are always there but created as a measurment. Like a "gallon" of milk, that much milk exists but it is our choice on how to measure that amount.

[PDM]

Hotshot, I'd love it if you felt badly about yourself, seeing as you have every right to, grammar, spelling, and punctuation-wise.

I ask not for a pity party, but, rather, that people know what I mean not what I say, though that may make me sound hypocritical.

[Hotshot101]

I am sorry my typing is bad. Just need to slow down on it.

[Nyktos]

I say we did not create math, but we did create numbers. For example, 1 + 2 = 3, even if if the terms "one", "plus", "two", "equals", and "three" did not exist.

[Golden Legacy]

But again, in what sense do they not exist? If you have three of an item, the "three" relationship is there, it exists. All we've done is give it symbolic representation.

[Hotshot101]

Simple math mabye. Although algebra and some other types of math i don't really think so.

[Luna]

Note: I haven't read this topic, just the first post.

I think it's entirely created. It does fit with the universe and physics and the laws of lalala because really, you can make an equation to do anything you want.

I could make an equation to say that the letters in Sheba = 666.

At school, people often say "Oh I think the only true logic is math and nothing else is entirely definite." True. But that's just possible due to the the laws that were created to make this logical math work.

That's what I think in general ): Like when teachers give you a bunch of f(x)'s and you're like wtf is all of this for and where did it come from? ):

But then I begin thinking of philosophers who noticed stuff that already existed in nature. Golden Porportions/Ratio for example (the letter phi). etc etc. Fibonacci sequence, too.

[Platinum Sun]

I think Sheba is close. Most mathematical formulae and constants come from observable phenomena in nature or other aspects of the physical world. All of the formulas in your mathbook can trace their orgins back through a series of derevations all the way to an observable constant (or a set of them.) You'll really get into formula derivations a lot if you're taking pre-calculus and physics at the same time like me. (Ugh... not a good combo. formulas=evil)
A simple example is the number pi. Pi was invented by mathematicians that noticed how, no matter what the size of a circle, the ratio between its circumference and radius is always 22:7. Form that, dozens of algebraic formulas were derived for determining unknown dimensions of circles, spheres, cones, cylanders, and many other shapes. Basically, math is a perspective to make things that happen anyway easier to define, observe, and predict.
Math seems to have devloped a mind of its own through our continued use of it though; especially in the realm of probability. Time for another example: If you drop a pin on a sheet of liked paper, the chance that it will not cross a line is seven out of twenty-two. No one knows why.

[Hotshot101]

Sounds like I will be learning some of that soon *gets scared* I can see where sheba is getting at. Math is sorta pur human concepts except for numbers to tell how many you got.

[Golden Legacy]

Platinum Sun, on Nov 29 2006, 11:46 PM, said:

I think Sheba is close. Most mathematical formulae and constants come from observable phenomena in nature or other aspects of the physical world. All of the formulas in your mathbook can trace their orgins back through a series of derevations all the way to an observable constant (or a set of them.) You'll really get into formula derivations a lot if you're taking pre-calculus and physics at the same time like me. (Ugh... not a good combo. formulas=evil)
A simple example is the number pi. Pi was invented by mathematicians that noticed how, no matter what the size of a circle, the ratio between its circumference and radius is always 22:7. Form that, dozens of algebraic formulas were derived for determining unknown dimensions of circles, spheres, cones, cylanders, and many other shapes. Basically, math is a perspective to make things that happen anyway easier to define, observe, and predict.
Math seems to have developed a mind of its own through our continued use of it though; especially in the realm of probability. Time for another example: If you drop a pin on a sheet of liked paper, the chance that it will not cross a line is seven out of twenty-two. No one knows why.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. Math builds on itself. You mentioned Pi, and how from that single constant, dozens of formulas and proofs can be derived. Is it sheer chance that the Fibonnaci numbers are all in a ratio of phi, and that number is found in nature? Is it sheer coincidence that the same model that describes atoms in our bodies is also the same that dictates the stars in space?

[Platinum Sun]

Golden Legacy, on Dec 9 2006, 10:01 PM, said:

Is it sheer coincidence that the same model that describes atoms in our bodies is also the same that dictates the stars in space?

Woah there! You had something good going there until that statement. It's worth noting that the laws governing atoms and sub-atomic particles are completely different (in some cases opposite) from those that govern objects. That's the dividing line between normal physics and quantum physics. The explanation for this eluded even Einstein, who went to his grave sitting on an unfinished Unified Field Theory.