[Golden Legacy]

All right, so in the "About You" topic, some of you expressed interest in having children (myself included), others did not want them at all. However, Aquamarine brought up an interesting point (over which we have a brief argument), that there are people out there who have children without ever being married (which obviously means they are having pre-marital sex, which is the focus of this debate).

So, what are your opinions on the matter? Is it all right for a couple to have children without getting married? What are your thoughts on pre-marital sex? Are there any issues of morality that are involved, or can it be a "do what makes you happy" mentality? How does society see all this?

Serious topic, serious responses please.

[Eugine]

IMO, it's not wrong to have children out of marriage, but stupid. I have tons of friends who were raised single parent (or out of marriage), and are fine.

[Split Infinity]

I think marriage itself really comes down to your religious beliefs. If it's not your thing, you shouldn't have to go through with it. I don't necessarily support that, I just don't see it as being wrong. On the other hand, I don't believe in the notion of a one night stand, simply because I see sex as a representation of commitment, whether or not the couple intend to have children.

[Lightning Star]

Alright, going against my religious belief, I believe that pre-marital sex is alright IF and ONLY IF you have been with the person for a long time and TRULY love them. Not just infatuation or just a random hookup. I believe that sex in itself is too often thrown around as a game, and not taken for what it really is (or should be): a beautiful union between two people who truly love each other.

As for having children before marriage, well, I find it a little stupid, if you ask me. I know so many high school drop outs who had to give up on their dreams of being a _____ (fill in the blank with some sort of career) to raise their kid(s). I also know a lot of guys get freaked out when they hear their girlfriend is pregnant and leave them, making it so the girl has to raise the baby all by herself. Personally, I would use every method of protection possible because I 1) am too goal oriented to give up and try to raise a baby at the same time and 2) I hate kids :P

[Someone Else]

Wow, I completely agree with Icy on a serious topic for once. Oil and vinegar, dude.

I think protection is still underrated in sex. Unmarried persons need to use protection. If they did, we'd have less abortions. (different topic)

I don't think you should have babies unless you're married, but most of the times these babies came about as an accident.

[Toasty]

No to both accounts. No sex until you're married, so obviously, no children until you're married. Unless you adopt a child.

[Aquamarine]

I think having sex before marriage is completely okay. First off, it's totally natural, what with all the hormones and stuff, secondly... can't think of anything, and thirdly it's fun! But ONLY protected sex.

I'm against pre-marital children though, since they CAN'T get the needed attention and care that a one conceived in marriage can.

So yeah... Not much scientific pondering and stuff in my reasons.

[Lightning Star]

Wind Dude, on Aug 5 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

Wow, I completely agree with Icy on a serious topic for once. Oil and vinegar, dude.

I think protection is still underrated in sex. Unmarried persons need to use protection. If they did, we'd have less abortions. (different topic)

I don't think you should have babies unless you're married, but most of the times these babies came about as an accident.

We agree? Creepy. :P

I wouldn't call it "Accident" though. Not if you're married. If you're not, then yeah. I know my parents had three kids within five years then decided not to have anymore (and my dad went through a procedure). But then they decided ten years later to have another, and so my dad had to go through another procedure, and at the time it wasn't even guarnteed that it would even work, but I'm living proof that it did. ^^

[Mysterious Adept]

I'd have to say no on both polls.

In my eyes, Marriage is like a christmas gift. Only insted of an item, a person is giving themselves to one person. In that sense, i believe that Pre-Marriage sex is wrong. As some of you have mention earlier, "Accidents" can happen. These wouldn't happen if the couple waited until they were married and prepared. Now they can turn out just fine, but you can help but think is there something missing in thier life? I have a friend like this. She knows that her parents had her when they were young. She also knows that her father left her, and she is perfectly fine and going to college, but just imagine the pain she had to go through. The pain of finding out the truth.

As for kids before marriage, well I would just end up repeating myself so i'll cut it down short. I think a couple shouldnt have kids until they are prepared. To me, when a couple marries it tells me that they know the hardship and are accepting them, making them ready for anything that comes thier way, Kids, disease etc.

(I apologize if I have strayed from the topic)

[Someone Else]

I kinda have to wonder what the point of topics such as this are. People aren't going to magically stop having sex pre-marriage just because some of us think it's bad.

[Golden Legacy]

Wind Dude, on Aug 6 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

I kinda have to wonder what the point of topics such as this are. People aren't going to magically stop having sex pre-marriage just because some of us think it's bad.

What's wrong with discussing issues? We're humans, we can reflect on what's going on around us, and to say or do nothing about it (whether in support or against something) is being... well, deconstructive.


Mysterious Adept summarized my views pretty well, so I'll quote it.
V

Mysterious Adept, on Aug 6 2007, 04:19 PM, said:

I'd have to say no on both polls.

In my eyes, Marriage is like a christmas gift. Only insted of an item, a person is giving themselves to one person. In that sense, i believe that Pre-Marriage sex is wrong. As some of you have mention earlier, "Accidents" can happen. These wouldn't happen if the couple waited until they were married and prepared. Now they can turn out just fine, but you can help but think is there something missing in thier life? I have a friend like this. She knows that her parents had her when they were young. She also knows that her father left her, and she is perfectly fine and going to college, but just imagine the pain she had to go through. The pain of finding out the truth.

As for kids before marriage, well I would just end up repeating myself so i'll cut it down short. I think a couple shouldnt have kids until they are prepared. To me, when a couple marries it tells me that they know the hardship and are accepting them, making them ready for anything that comes thier way, Kids, disease etc.

(I apologize if I have strayed from the topic)

@ Icy: I understand where you're coming from, and I would agree - but my one question is, if you're certain that the person is, why not have that "beautiful" union conclude in marriage? It sounds like the simple next step to take.

[Someone Else]

Life's short. If you actually love the person, you're horny, there's nothing to do... go for it. Well I'm impatient, and I'd get tired of waiting for the cement of the relationship to dry that is marriage. :P

[Golden Legacy]

And why the negative view on marriage? You would think that, if you love someone, you'd enjoy spending your life with them. That's why you made the commitment.

[Someone Else]

I was worried that my "metaphor" wouldn't pull through. Basically, when you're married, your relationship is dried like cement so it's permanent (or should be) If you think you want to be married to somebody then your relationship is starting to dry into cement.

But if you have sex with someone you love who you think you're going to be married, it's okay in my book.

[Lightning Star]

Golden Legacy, on Aug 6 2007, 04:45 PM, said:

@ Icy: I understand where you're coming from, and I would agree - but my one question is, if you're certain that the person is, why not have that "beautiful" union conclude in marriage? It sounds like the simple next step to take.

Ah, but here's the thing, people can love more than one person in their life; how do you know which one will stay faithful to you and not leave you? The point that I'm making is that you can't tell where your relationship is going to go, and getting married makes that even more dangerous. If you abstain until marriage only to have that marriage fall apart into a divorce, then wasn't it pretty pointless? Because then most people get remarried and have their union with their new partner and they still end up having sex with two people, only there were two weddings instead of one. (plus, that's a lot of wasted money, if you ask me.)

I suppose it also goes to my own fear of marriage, because I fear divorce. I think if you truly love someone that it's okay to have sex, but I also think that people can fall out of love, and getting married each time you fall in love so you can have your beautiful union can be pretty pointless.

Am I making sense kinda? :P My brain hurts now...

[I'm Always BROKE]

You know, when I first saw this topic I thought it was another spambot. Never thought we'd ever actually debate sex over here. :D

Anyways, my opinion about this is pretty clear, why not? I've said it before but I don't think marriage means anything at all. My parents also have 4 childeren and they ain't married either, and I don't think they ever will... Same for me I think.

And I agree with Aqua here; sex is completely natural and daymn... why'd you even wait till your married? Even if I'd ever have the idea to marry a girl, I would've probarly nailed her plently of times before the hunny moon anyways... :D But pregnancy... we've got condoms for that... :P

[Someone Else]

Holy crap Icy, you said my thoughts again but put it in better words than I could've. STOP DOING THAT.

Also, sex isn't a simple topic to discuss. Sex, in American culture, is spoken of with shut doors and hushed voices. Shouldn't we be a bit more open with sex? You'd be surprised how many first-timers don't know or aren't comfortable using a condom, or how many girls put off birth control. And so, when it comes to the time that you have sex with your wife (or hubby) how do you know that you're going to know how to please her? You wouldn't, unless you actually had some experience before that time. Experience isn't something you get from abstaining.

I'm a virgin of course, but I've read some books (it was an AIDs project, part of the project was prevention which I guess was in sexual practices) and talked with some friends.

[Golden Legacy]

I'm not exactly the one to be talking about sex either - I didn't know what it was until I was 16 (11th grade), I thought it was people making out before then.

That said, I think society actually encourages sex too much, and pushes people to "find the right one", even if it means getting in multiple relationships and, the way I see it, "bouncing" from one person to the next.

There's something else that's always bothered me. You can have all the arguments you want for not getting married, but let's say that a couple does get married, and they are happy, and it works out for them - why doesn't society encourage THAT? Why does it always have a negative, even condescending view of marriage, and stereotyping it to mean a boring, halted relationship? Why not actually point out the many examples of couples who are happily married, instead of trying to make it out to be something that isn't worth doing?

[Someone Else]

Interesting... I always heard of sex being a terrible thing that only sinners do, and it'll screw you up so bad you won't be able to walk or talk. Oh, and it'll make you go blind.

I guess that it's a bit of both. And as for what you said about marriage, it's probably because that, indeed, we live on a sexualized culture. Commercials say, "YOU HAVE ED, BUY OUR PRODUCT" media says, "These fictional male characters in our shows get laid twice a week... and they meet seven new girls a week. Hint hint" and our parents say, "You'll poke your eye out from the erection" or, "Uh, oh... sorry junior, I left the toaster running..."

I'm curious as to why you didn't know about sex until you were 16. I knew what it was when I was, I think, about 13. Might've been when I was 12. And I don't look at porn either. Don't remember when it was, probably Jr. High sex ed classes. I like how in the majority of those classes they were very cautious as to not let on what "sex" was exactly, they just told us this crap about how everything is natural that we were going through and that we weren't freaks, blah blah, as if they were afraid we would use our newly gained knowledge to bang the next chick that we saw.

[I'm Always BROKE]

Wind Dude, on Aug 7 2007, 06:26 PM, said:

Holy crap Icy, you said my thoughts again but put it in better words than I could've. STOP DOING THAT.

Also, sex isn't a simple topic to discuss. Sex, in American culture, is spoken of with shut doors and hushed voices. Shouldn't we be a bit more open with sex? You'd be surprised how many first-timers don't know or aren't comfortable using a condom, or how many girls put off birth control. And so, when it comes to the time that you have sex with your wife (or hubby) how do you know that you're going to know how to please her? You wouldn't, unless you actually had some experience before that time. Experience isn't something you get from abstaining.

I'm a virgin of course, but I've read some books (it was an AIDs project, part of the project was prevention which I guess was in sexual practices) and talked with some friends.

Hehehe, my 7 year old brother already half knows what sex is. I guess it depends a lot on what sort of people you have in your envoirment. :P

And I pretty much know how to do "it" since I'm one of the few virgins in my group of people I hang around with but I didn't had any idea except for just 'stick it in there and enjoy' before the time I started chilling with them.

[Someone Else]

ROFL DIDDY.... that was awesome. :P!!!

[Lightning Star]

Hahah, yeah.

Golden Legacy, on Aug 7 2007, 09:46 AM, said:

There's something else that's always bothered me. You can have all the arguments you want for not getting married, but let's say that a couple does get married, and they are happy, and it works out for them - why doesn't society encourage THAT? Why does it always have a negative, even condescending view of marriage, and stereotyping it to mean a boring, halted relationship? Why not actually point out the many examples of couples who are happily married, instead of trying to make it out to be something that isn't worth doing?

I think it's because most of us have seen that there is no such thing as a happy marriage; there's always fights over this and that, why do you need five new pairs of shoes, why did you let junior go out past 10, blah blah blah. Pretty soon, the people can't stand each other any more. I was 6 when my parents constantly threatened each other with divorce, and I remember the one time my dad pushed my mom to the floor and got hauled off to jail for a night. Then there's the example of my brother who married a girl he met online, she turned out to be abusive and she threatened to divorce him if they didn't move back to Germany. He was a softie and gave in, and when he wanted out, he had to sneak out while she was off at some club, and my dad had to fly to germany to help him get out of there. It was a mess. And now I've got my older sister who wants to get married to the guy she's living with, but she wants her wedding to be the way "they" want it, but my parents want the wedding to be different, so that's caused conflict as well.

There's no such thing as a happy marriage, and I think people realize it. Even if society encourages happy marriages, it will do little to help the fact that they simply don't exist (or are at least VERY rare)

[Folcon]

lightningstar, on Aug 7 2007, 07:47 PM, said:

Hahah, yeah.
I think it's because most of us have seen that there is no such thing as a happy marriage; there's always fights over this and that, why do you need five new pairs of shoes, why did you let junior go out past 10, blah blah blah. Pretty soon, the people can't stand each other any more. I was 6 when my parents constantly threatened each other with divorce, and I remember the one time my dad pushed my mom to the floor and got hauled off to jail for a night. Then there's the example of my brother who married a girl he met online, she turned out to be abusive and she threatened to divorce him if they didn't move back to Germany. He was a softie and gave in, and when he wanted out, he had to sneak out while she was off at some club, and my dad had to fly to germany to help him get out of there. It was a mess. And now I've got my older sister who wants to get married to the guy she's living with, but she wants her wedding to be the way "they" want it, but my parents want the wedding to be different, so that's caused conflict as well.

There's no such thing as a happy marriage, and I think people realize it. Even if society encourages happy marriages, it will do little to help the fact that they simply don't exist (or are at least VERY rare)

I think that falls along the lines of no such thing as a perfect marriage. I know several families that are happily married, just not perfect, my own parents included. My parents fight now and then, but they're still happy. My brother and his wife will fight on ocasion, but they're marriage is still a happy one. I just think its a matter of no marrage is perfect, just as no body is perfect.

And as for sex before marriage, as long as its safe sex, why should it matter. Then agian, I don't give two shakes of a rats tail about what religion might say about it. Although admitidly, children out of marriage I'm not so thrilled about.

[Aquamarine]

DiddyKong, on Aug 7 2007, 11:20 PM, said:

And I pretty much know how to do "it" since I'm one of the few virgins in my group of people I hang around with but I didn't had any idea except for just 'stick it in there and enjoy' before the time I started chilling with them.

Wow, I'm so much like you in that sense. I'm also a virgin, whereas most of my good friends with whom I hang out with are not. The thing is, I do not agree with what most of them do. Some of them have had sex loads of times without using a condom, and only a couple of months ago one of them was afraid that some chick he slept with was pregnant. He was so afraid of becoming a father at the age of 17. Everything turned out all right in the end though. It was really funny, I made so much fun of him, even though he was scared to death of what would happen. xD

Also, these friends often **** hookers, and they used to call me to join them every time, but I always said I refuse to sleep with a prostitute, and that I never will sleep with one. Seeing that I cannot be swayed, they stopped inviting me.

These guys are TOO open when it comes to sex. Even in front of girls. Still, I'm not one to talk, I speak about sex as though commenting on the weather...

[pHantOm]

Sex is good

Teenage pregnancy isnt.

[I'm Always BROKE]

Aquamarine, on Aug 9 2007, 08:00 PM, said:

Also, these friends often **** hookers, and they used to call me to join them every time, but I always said I refuse to sleep with a prostitute, and that I never will sleep with one. Seeing that I cannot be swayed, they stopped inviting me.

These guys are TOO open when it comes to sex. Even in front of girls. Still, I'm not one to talk, I speak about sex as though commenting on the weather...

Same here, a good friend of mines even has a sort of sexual relationship with a hoe. In Amsterdam they also always offer me money to have sex with one but I always refuse... even though I admit it's pretty hard sometimes. And yeah, I'm very open about sex aswell but alot of people from our age are.

[FlamingDuck]

lightningstar, on Aug 7 2007, 07:47 PM, said:

There's no such thing as a happy marriage, and I think people realize it.

There's no such thing as a perfect marriage, but happy ones definitely exist. Pretty much everyone I know has happily married parents (I think).

As as for pre-marital sex, body says yes and brain says nnnnggh...I don't know.

The best I could compare it to would probably be getting poison ivy. You reeeeeaaaally want to scratch it, but if you do, it gets all sorts of screwed up.

(Incidentally, I have poison ivy all over my leg.)

[Wiflewood]

Pre marital sex, although being a catholic I'm supposed to be against it, I'm not bothered at all. At least half my friends have done it, and I intend to as well.

Couples having children before marriage, well, I won't encourage it, but If the couple love each other a lot and are going to be good parents then I see no reason why not being married would hinder their family. The neighbours over the road from me are getting married this year, but they already have 2 kids (Ages 13 and 12 I think) and they're a very happy, well-off family.

[Mindpatch]

Now having children without getting married shouldn't be a problem, the parents can still be together happily and live together happily without problems, however it puts both parents on a legally weak spot. The father could leave the mother without any real strings attached except for having to pay the mother if she actually pulls the court in. As well as that the mother could leave the father and take the baby without any real strings attached (except court) this could leave nasty situations. Premarital sex is not a problem to me, I'm not very religious or anything, and I guess it's simply a fun and good way to show you love oneanother or just a simple fun way to relieve stress and the like.

[TheEnglishman]

I don't have much of an opinion about it, but we've been brought up in a society (or at least I have) in which marriage isn't as important as it used to be, and pre-marital sex is basically seen as ok. I think that's always going to influrence it.

[Viridian Tiger]

I never thought I'd post in a debate topic, but it seems to have caught my interest.

I don't know if I truly support pre-marital sex, but IMO as long as the two people are truly ready to support one another into marriage if the really love each other, I have no qualms about it.

Now the other part of the topic, pregnancy, can be very cruel if a young woman or teenage girl gets it. I've heard about how they resort to abortion just because they got a little into it with their boyfriend. It truly is a sad thing, throwing away a human life,who could possibly one day change the world, like trash. IMO, women should only be pregnant if they're ready to face aall the difficulties, and smile at all the blessed moments of that child. I think they should do this only if they are married, so the guy just doesn't leave because he just screwed up a girl's life for the fun of it, or if the girl leaves him because she wants nothing to do with him because in her mind they may be both to blame, but it's really his fault.

It appears I had more to say about pregnancy than I thought. O.o

[Wiflewood]

Viridian Tiger, on Aug 13 2007, 08:25 PM, said:

I don't know if I truly support pre-marital sex, but IMO as long as the two people are truly ready to support one another into marriage if the really love each other, I have no qualms about it.

Is that really necessary? Surely theres no harm in 2 people doing something at a party or a quick summer romance or something? I don't think its a necessity that 2 people end up married just because they had sex.

[Viridian Tiger]

Hmm... Yes now that you mention it... I guess it would be alright.. That is if the two know each other. Sometimes if it's a stranger things can sometimes go wrong, or right. It's just one person's opinion, anyway! ^^

[Someone Else]

The problem with people who "know each other" having sex just to kill sheer boredom is when one actually feels a romantic attraction to the other sometime afterward. Then things get messy if the other person doesn't feel the same way.

[R-dog]

Looks like I'm in the minority of not supporting any pre-marital sex. I'm not going to stop anyone from doing what they want, but if anyone asked for my opinion, I'd discourage it. Even with protection, things can go wrong, and I'd rather not take that chance.

I also agree with what WD mentioned ^

[Split Infinity]

The best protection is abstinence.

[Golden Legacy]

Spam King, on Aug 13 2007, 08:47 PM, said:

The best protection is abstinence.

Brilliantly said, it's the best way to put it.

[Mysterious Adept]

Couldn't of said it better myself!

Now i havent posted in this topic for a little while now, ive been watching and reading what other people post. Now not to offend anyone, but i believe that some have the idea of Sex and marriage wrong. The 2 go together, why do you want to have sex with someone (Even your best friend) and find out that your going to be a father/Mother but your in love with someone else. Wont that dampen the relationship that you want to have with the person your in love with?

Also ive noticed that a lot of people say sex is ok but teen pregnancy is bad. Well how do female teenagers get pregnant? BY HAVING SEX! Unless someone can show me you can get pregnant another way?

[Aquamarine]

Dude... You do know what protected sex is, right?

[Gardna]

The best protection is to be careful and there's absolutely no way I would refuse to have sex with a person that I love just because "omg what if she gets pregnant?!". So for me it's yes on both.

[Golden Legacy]

I noticed something interesting in the poll results - there's an overlap that I want to question.

Thus far, the majority of people have voted 'Yes' for Pre-marital sex. Because of the overlap with the second question, there are at least a few people that also voted for 'No' for having children before marriage.

How can those people justify having pre-marital sex, but also vote for not having children before marriage - especially if pre-marital sex will run the inevitable risk that a pregnancy will happen?

[Mysterious Adept]

Aquamarine, on Aug 23 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

Dude... You do know what protected sex is, right?

Nothing and i mean NOTHING can get you fully protected you will always have that risk.

Gardna, on Aug 23 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

The best protection is to be careful and there's absolutely no way I would refuse to have sex with a person that I love just because "omg what if she gets pregnant?!". So for me it's yes on both.

Well you might feel that way, but what if she DOESN't? What if she doesnt want to get pregnant but you dont care, its going to be a lot harder for her to deal with it than for you.

(By the way, i Once again apologize if my comments are affending anyone, My feelings are really strong about this topic)

[I'm Always BROKE]

Mysterious Adept, on Aug 24 2007, 12:16 AM, said:

Nothing and i mean NOTHING can get you fully protected you will always have that risk.

Yes, there's always this slight chance the condom rips, but that's mostly only with the cheaper ones.

[Someone Else]

Golden Legacy, on Aug 23 2007, 03:01 PM, said:

How can those people justify having pre-marital sex, but also vote for not having children before marriage - especially if pre-marital sex will run the inevitable risk that a pregnancy will happen?

They're saying it's okay to have sex before marriage if you're careful. That's all.

[Ironsight]

I agree with WD

[Split Infinity]

Mysterious Adept, on Aug 24 2007, 08:16 AM, said:

Nothing and i mean NOTHING can get you fully protected you will always have that risk.

Condoms alone have a success rate of about 99.7%. If that's not good enough for you, there are procedures you can have done to prevent conception altogether. And although there is no vaccination for STDs, the odds of a condom tearing, your partner carrying an STD and your partner then transmitting that STD are slim to none.

Mysterious Adept, on Aug 24 2007, 08:16 AM, said:

Well you might feel that way, but what if she DOESN't? What if she doesnt want to get pregnant but you dont care, its going to be a lot harder for her to deal with it than for you.

That's rape.

Mysterious Adept, on Aug 24 2007, 08:16 AM, said:

By the way, i Once again apologize if my comments are affending anyone, My feelings are really strong about this topic

It's a debate topic, we expect no less.

[Lemontime]

In the words of a wise man;

"I like you.
I like sex."

I rest my case.

[pHantOm]

I find it unsafe for the newborn to be born into a life without a stable living enviroment.

Married parents are important to a child growing up. Sex at our age is a risk, but it's going to happen. We're teenagers and were curious, and to say you wont do it is a lot harder to do than most think before promising to a certain religion.

Trust me.

[FlamingDuck]

Mysterious Adept, on Aug 23 2007, 06:16 PM, said:

Nothing and i mean NOTHING can get you fully protected you will always have that risk.

Well, there are a few methods, but they involve nasty work on your reproductive organs. I know what you're saying though.