[Quacnar]

So this is the intelligence contest, people shall get points for being intelligent. You (of course) shall lose points for being stupid. Anyone who posts is automatically playing, you'll lose points if your post is "Im playing" or something along those lines. All you have to do is have decent, educated conversation and smart people will win. I also would like someone besides me to be a judge(all a judge does is make posts saying +/- X points for any particular member) so if you would like to be the other judge PM me. I know this game sounds stupid, but I think it might be worth a shot!! There is really nothing else to say except the contest will last 24 hours and good luck!!

This round's topic is .. ABORTION!!

Players and their points:

1. Toasty +4 (1st)
2. Haaris +3 (2nd)
3..eugine +4 (1st)
4. Gio +2 (3rd)

[Eugine]

Nothing to discuss...

[Quacnar]

Thats a good idea!!! + 4 points to .eugine!! Every ound there will be a topic of discussion: THIS ROUND'S TOPIC IS..... Abortion. Discuss your views of abortion!!

[Eugine]

Abortion should be allowed, but only in the first trimester.

[Gio]

I believe abortion is wrong for moral and religious reasons. I am a Christian and in the bible it says that life begins when conception occurs. That would be the only reason I think abortion is wrong.

[Moonear]

I say that on such topics, we have a conservative jusge and a liberal judge, just to make it fair.

[Toasty]

I'm against. The child, regardless of it's state of mind, is alive. It will eventually be able to think for itself like any other human being, and it's not fair to kill him/her for something that he/she's not responsible for. It'd be like giving a store clerk the death sentence for being robbed.

[Gio]

ihatekraden, on Feb 25 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

I say that on such topics, we have a conservative jusge and a liberal judge, just to make it fair.

That's a good idea. IHK should get points for that.

[Quacnar]

ihatekraden, on Feb 25 2008, 10:49 PM, said:

I say that on such topics, we have a conservative jusge and a liberal judge, just to make it fair.

Good point +3 points

Toasty, on Feb 25 2008, 10:52 PM, said:

I'm against. The child, regardless of it's state of mind, is alive. It will eventually be able to think for itself like any other human being, and it's not fair to kill him/her for something that he/she's not responsible for. It'd be like giving a store clerk the death sentence for being robbed.

Dont know if I agree, but good arguement and analogy. +4

[Eugine]

I think a woman should be able to decide what grows, and what doesn't grow inside of her... ONLY IN THE FIRST TRIMESTER THOUGH =)
See... I please both sides.

[Quacnar]

hat about Juno when something happened late in the game?

[Eugine]

What? lolz

[Gio]

Well if I could find the verse where in the bible where it speaks about life beginning at conception then I will post it. I know it is there I just have to look, and yes I know that people of other religions or beliefs aren't really going to care if I put the verse up.

[Quacnar]

In Juno something happened late in the movie (after 3 months) where she might have wanted to change her mind. Dont circumstances matter? Gio, religion isn't a good support for your opinions. Science and reasoning is.

[Eugine]

Never seen Juno.

She took the risk, and now has to live with it?

[Toasty]

No. B)

@Gio: That's another thing. Being a Christian myself, I don't think abortion should be allowed because technically speaking, the child begins life the moment it's concieved.

[Quacnar]

No, if you didnt see it I wouldnt want to spoil it. But you get - 2 points for not seeing Juno.

[Gio]

killercoz, on Feb 25 2008, 09:58 PM, said:

In Juno something happened late in the movie (after 3 months) where she might have wanted to change her mind. Dont circumstances matter? Gio, religion isn't a good support for your opinions. Science and reasoning is.

That is an opinion. Just because I use something I believe doesn't mean I am right, but it certainly doesn't mean I am wrong. You asked for an intelligent conversation and I am giving you one. Just because I brought religion up doesn't mean I am wrong.

[Quacnar]

No its not wrong, but because everyone believes in different religion saying thaty abortion is wrong based on what the bible says won't change anyones mind. There is no proff for your theory.

[Eugine]

Don't think any religion supports abortion. Correct me if I am wrong?

[Gio]

I am not trying to change anyone's mind. You asked for an opinion and I gave you mine, and my reasoning. Religion in my mind is the only reason I need.

[Eugine]

lolz. Gio, logics > religion.
(don't get me wrong, I'm christian!)

[Gio]

Anyway this is supposed to be about abortion not about religion vs. logic. Sorry I went of on a tangent.
I am done.

[Eugine]

So you think religion > logics?

[Gio]

I think that I am a logical thinker, but I am also a very religious thinker. I think there are some things that God never meant for use to understand and interpret. I believe that this is one of those cases. In the bible it says cut and dry that life begins at conception, therefore I don't believe that we as human beings were meant to determine that. I think that using logic to discuss this oversteps our bounds.

[Eugine]

Yikes.

[Gio]

What?

[Eugine]

I'm just surprised.
I just like, 100% disagree with you x.x

[Gio]

Well how about you give some reason on why you think the way you do, so far you have only said what you think. I would also like to know why you disagree with me 100%

[Eugine]

I think God gave us the decision to seek knowledge (both the good and bad), and I think abortion is one of the cases where imo, science is more important in the debate. I dunno, but I religion in the abortion debate is terrible (eg. the Catholics refuse to allow Africans to have abortion, or to use contraceptives, like wtf? Yeah, lets spread hunger and AIDs so we don't make baby Jesus mad!).

I personally think life begins at conception also, but honestly I do not believe 'human life' begins at conception. I'm not sure, but imo, if you use that analogy that life begins at conception, why do we kill all the lesser species, since I think we all have the same features at that stage? x.x
Honestly, don't know much Biology, so I hope I am making sense, and saying the correct stuff x3.

Also, I do not believe using logics oversteps our bounds x.x

[Gio]

It says that life begins at conception, and we describe murder as taking someone's life, then abortion would be very similar to murder, would it not?

to people reading this keep in mind it is a Christian point of view.

[Eugine]

hmm. Dunno how those people who wrote the Bible knew life started at conception when scientists only figured this out in the 19th century...

[Gio]

.eugine, on Feb 25 2008, 10:47 PM, said:

hmm. Dunno how those people who wrote the Bible knew life started at conception when scientists only figured this out in the 19th century...

Eugine you as a Christian should know that God wrote the bible through the people. It is his word you know. And I do believe God is all-knowing, meaning that the scientists of the 19th century have nothing on him.

[Quacnar]

Gio and .eugine +2 each for intenseness, dedication, and intelligence.

[Eugine]

(I think I should be getting post count for this)
Honestly Gio, think of it logically. Do you honestly believe someone 6000 years ago knew about 'eggs' and 'sperms' and 'fertilization'. And that something happened before there were actual signs/symptoms of pregnancy? I honestly believe they were talking about something like the second trimester.

And if you haven't guessed it yet, I strongly believe in science. I do consult the Bible though =)
Still trying to be like Jesus...

[Gio]

I am saying that God did, and that is the reason that it says that life begins at conception in the bible. He had it put there for a reason.

[Eugine]

It's kinda hard to debate against the Bible when I believe in it. So I'll let an Atheist step in B)

[Gio]

Letting an atheist step in would change the debate entirely. So rather than carry on, I would like to say that for now I am thinking I am going to step aside for a bit to. I am tired and I have got to go to bed. I think everyone can see what I believe in from mine and Eugine's short debate.

[PDM]

"Im playing"

[Elliott]

Abortion should be allowed up until 18 months.
>_>

[PDM]

Abortion should be allowed until the child learns how to talk.

[Split Infinity]

This topic gets -1 for having such a dumb concept. :\

[Elliott]

Abortion should be allowed until the child is old enough to leave home.

[Laharl]

Aobortion should be allowed for everyone except rape victims -kidding-

[Elliott]

LEGALISE MURDER.

I win.

[Laharl]

LEGALISE AND ENCOURAGE INFANTCIDE

the match is mine good sir

[Elliott]

DESTRUCTION OF ALL LIFE IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN.

You're on.

[Saturos S.]

I think licking doorknobs should be made illegal if you don't have a shop permit.

[Jenna]

Atheist, present~!

Back in ye olde day,large families were encouraged for help on the farm. In today's world, we have so much ridiculous technology that manual labor isn't required as much, and families only really need two children if they wish to experience parenting each gender...

"As will be detailed below, the behavior of the fetus and newborn is likely a reflection of reflexive brainstem activities which are produced in the absence of forebrain-mediated affective or cognitive processing, i.e. thinking, reasoning, understanding, or true emotionality (Joseph, 1996a, 1999; Levene, 1993; Sroufe, 1996). It is the much slower to develop forebrain which generates higher order cognitive activity and purposeful behaviors, and which is responsible for the expression and experience of true emotions including pleasure, rage, fear and joy and the desire for social-emotional contact (Joseph, 1992, 1996ab, 1999; MacLean, 1990)."
"It is rather obvious that the neonate is able to scream and cry and can even slightly lift the corners of the mouth as if smiling. However, these do not appear to be true emotions (Sroufe, 1996; however, see Izard, 1991). In fact, smiling, as well as screaming and crying can be produced from brainstem stimulation even with complete forebrain transection or destruction (Larson et al., 1994; Zhang et al., 1994; reviewed in Joseph, 1996a). Hence, neonatal and premature infant "smiling" or distress reactions to noxious stimulation (e.g. heel lance) are also likely brainstem mediated, particularly in that they may be triggered in the absence of any obvious stimulus source and following forebrain destruction or lack of development (anencephaly). However, as brainstem maturation continues in a caudal-rostral arc (Debakan, 1970; Langworthy, 1937), at term and over the following weeks and months, the immature hypothalamus (which sits atop the midbrain), and thus the forebrain, increasingly contributes to and gains control over these behaviors (Joseph, 1992, 1999)."
"The progression in behavioral complexity that begins with spontaneous fetal movements and which culminates with presumed preferences for the sound of mother's voice, also appear to reflect maturational events taking place in the brainstem, followed by forebrain structures. Indeed, the brainstem is first fashioned around the 33rd day of gestation (Bayer, 1995; Marin-Padilla, 1988; Sidman & Rakic, 1982) and nearly completes its cycle of development and myelination around the 7th gestational month (Gilles, Leviton, & Dooling, 1983; Langworthy, 1937; Yakovlev & Lecours, 1967). However, in contrast to the forebrain, the brainstem is incapable of cognition such as reasoning, comprehension, or thought (Joseph, 1996c), but instead reflexively reacts to a variety of stimuli in an exceedingly complex, albeit stereotyped fashion (Blessing, 1997; Cohen, Rossignol & Gillner, 1988; Cowie, Smith, & Robinson,1994; Steriade & McCarley, 1990)."
"For example, around the 10th week of gestation the fetus may take a single "breath" over a 24 hour time period, whereas by the 40th week "breathing" occurs much more frequently with some degree of regularity in regard to chest and abdominal movement
Nevertheless, the fetus and neonate appears incapable of thinking, reasoning, understanding, comprehending, or experiencing or generating "true" emotion or any semblance of higher order, forebrain mediated cognitive activity. Rather, although capable of learning, the increasingly complex behaviors demonstrated by the fetus and neonate, including head turning, eye movements, startle reactions, crying, screaming, and rudimentary smiling, are probably best described as brainstem reflexes."

If a woman, or girl, is kidnapped, raped, manages to live through it and becomes pregnant, such a situation would be traumatizing enough to a captive, but then having to deal with a growing child, and then having to deal with raising a child you didn't have time to plan for properly and having this new baggage to interfere with your life, a life you're trying to adjust back to after such a trauma. Especially if the girl is like, fourteen.

I could say several things about the bible. I won't.

What I will say is that human overpopulation is a problem in today's world. I'll step away from the concept of children born to mothers who SHOULDN'T BE, and shine a little light on it's effects on the world...

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/images/2007/12/08/hadcrut3_temps.jpg

Throughout the years, as we use more of our resources in newer and particularly more dangerous ways, the temperature in parts of our Earth increase, commonly known as 'Global Warming'. (Though this is a misconception, the proper term would be 'Global Climate Change.') Global Warming occurs when the sun's rays and heat reach Earth and are kept within our atmosphere by something known as the 'Greenhouse Effect'. The Greenhouse Effect occurs because of greenhouse gases, excessive carbon emissions, and other such harmful substances (When in excess) we release into the atmosphere. The ozone layer depletes because of unfamiliar chemical reactions with carbon emissions and excessive CO2 and greenhouse gases which are being released into the atmosphere.

The greatest amounts of greenhouse gases come from our cities, our industries, our gasoline cars, our cigarettes burnt, hell, even cow farts. (Though cows have been farting since... The dawn of cows, their farts DO infact deplete the ozone. But this is irrelevant.) If you look briefly at the typical weather in a Northern Hemisphere city, you will notice that it rarely snows within MOST cities, while it will snow just outside of the city. Why? Too much heat being generated. Too much industry. Too much carbon emission
and other such gases and substances being released into the air. ... Snow melts.

Wanna see something scary?

World Population Clock

A approximately the second I'm typing this, ~6,655,824,550 people have come into existence and live at this moment, and you will notice that for every death counted on this clock, about 3 new births occur, outweighing these deaths dramatically. With more people, we use more of our resources, chop more of our trees, burn more fuel, smoke more cigarettes, cut down on the population of our animals (which becomes more and more of a problem as there are more mouths to feed, and animals are literally tortured in most agriculture facilities to produce more goods to give to this insane amount of people, but that too is irrelevant.) We come up with more ways to combat disease, which allow our bodies to grow immune to the diseases. once our bodies obtain this immunity, the diseases mutate into new and unfamiliar forms to our bodies, which can infect us once again. as this cycle continues, the diseases continue to mutate and will eventually grow to much more dangerous and fatal forms.

Look at China.

"China's population increases each year by approximately 12-13 million people, a number that exceeds the total population of individual countries such as Belgium, Greece, Cambodia, or Ecuador. Annual population growth in China actually exceeds the current population of Ohio, Illinois, or Pennsylvania." -Geography: China's Population

Since the 1970s, a one-child-per-family policy has been put into place in an attempt to cut down on China's immense population. To this day, the birth and death rate have decreased, but China still suffers the effects of such a large population, packed into apartments housing multiple families, crammed in busy streets, having not enough domestic jobs, to the point that they turn to Western companies who will use them as cheap labor, feeding the outsourcing problem in western countries such as America.

It angers me every time I'm out and about and I see another well-to-do American family piling their four little spoiled tots into their brand new gas guzzling SUV, just big enough to pile 'em all in and lug 'em to school, McDonald's, daycare, soccer practice, ballet (and more among the various other things they would rather stick their child in for an hour or so for some free time, instead of actually partaking in the raising of their child... But that's another topic for another time.) Children are very expensive to have, costing an approximate amount of $80,000 for every five years. An unhealthy child will cost inevitably more, and other such luxuries such as toys, summercamp, afterschool activities, birthday parties, etc. add on as well. There are many families who suffer poverty even prior to having children, and once that child is born, that child becomes a hole in said family's wallet, something that could be used to feed and sustain a childless family, rather than create yet another innocent child who will not be cared for properly, not fed enough, not be given many opportunities in life.

There are many children in this world in foster and orphanage care, children either abandoned or taken from abusive families by government or law enforcement. They are placed in foster systems, often riddled with abuse, and an environment in which children are surrounded and influenced in some way by other children uncared for, with their own behavioral and developmental issues.

"Children in foster care are three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems, including conduct disorders, depression, difficulties in school and impaired social relationships. Some experts estimate that about 30% of the children in care have marked or severe emotional problems. Various studies have indicated that children and young people in foster care tend to have limited education and job skills, perform poorly in school compared to children who are not in foster care, lag behind in their education by at least one year, and have lower educational attainment than the general population."

"Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. 2.1 percent of all child fatalities took place in foster care. While this may seem like a relatively low number, we must consider the contrast in population between children in the general population versus children in foster care. In 1997, there were nearly 71 million children in the general population (99.6%), but only 302 thousand in state care (.4%) in state care. As state care is supposed to be a 'safe haven', the number of fatalities should be less or at least equal to what it is in the general population of children. By this standard, there should have been less than .4% of child fatalities occurring in foster care, however, there was 5.25 times that amount. (31 states reporting)"

- Foster Care Statistics- Forstersurvivor.net

All because of families not suited to care for children.

Keyword: Planned Parenting. Too many children to care for, too many mouths to feed, too many resources being used, too many families, not enough homes, not enough jobs, not enough Earth. The wealthy families with 4+ children who spend their money frivolously could be donating their money to unfortunate families and children who need it. The excessive amounts of money they may spend on their excessive amounts of kids could go much further for those in absolute need of this money. Instead of birthing their own children, families could be adopting to help the problems of children in foster care systems. There just DOESN'T NEED TO BE this gigantic population, these multitudinous problems in the world, most in some part due to families that should never have been, families not planned out well, all which could have been stopped and planned properly if a woman does intend to start a family.

This is not to offend anyone on this board reading this, I myself am an adopted child born to an unmarried woman unable to care for a child, and I have no qualms or regrets about being adopted, though in reality, she is one of many women whom the world would have benefited from by having not undergone the entirety of her pregnancy. However, as it is, I am a fairly normal seventeen year old girl finishing highschool and moving onto college, I make good grades, I'm happy in life, and I love both of my parents dearly (though we've had our struggles- what parent and child hasn't). Many speak of a lost connection to a child adopted versus a biological child, and I can say from experience that I am no less happy in my family and in my life than friends I've had who have lived with their biological parents.







I suppose I should lose about ten points just for taking all this time. XD (That, and I feel ill and dizzy, I'm not exactly up to more detail and research right now...)

[Eugine]

Did you write that?

[Jenna]

Except for what's in quotes and cited. If necessary, I'll site most of my sources.

(Keep in mind, I feel really ill today...)

[Gio]

Holy poo Jenna. That is a lot of writing.

[Drizzy Drake]

GIo, you are against abortion as it is ending a human life. I can guarantee you have killed a spider or ant in your life, which is ending the life of another creature. Just because they are not all high adn mighty as we are, it is still murder of a creature. If you have EVER killed ANYTHING in your life, your arguement that abortion is wrong because it is murder is null.

Now to talk abotu the abortion issue. I strongly beleive that peopel should be able to have abortions. Say a 14 year old gets pregnant, and her mother has very little money. That baby would grow up in a very bad enviroment, and wouldn't get the nurishment, or love that it truely needs. Isn't THAT even worse than having an abortion, but waiting to have a child when you can actually take care of it?

[Quacnar]

PDM, on Feb 26 2008, 03:17 AM, said:

"Im playing"

- 4

PDM, on Feb 26 2008, 03:23 AM, said:

Abortion should be allowed until the child learns how to talk.

- another 4

Split Infinity, on Feb 26 2008, 03:48 AM, said:

This topic gets -1 for having such a dumb concept. :\

It should. +1

Elliott, on Feb 26 2008, 04:16 AM, said:

Abortion should be allowed until the child is old enough to leave home.

-3

Elliott, on Feb 26 2008, 04:31 AM, said:

LEGALISE MURDER.

I win.

Not a bad idea. +3

laharl the slayer, on Feb 26 2008, 04:38 AM, said:

LEGALISE AND ENCOURAGE INFANTCIDE

the match is mine good sir

Copycat, -3

Elliott, on Feb 26 2008, 04:44 AM, said:

DESTRUCTION OF ALL LIFE IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN.

You're on.

Eh, -1

Saturos Striker, on Feb 26 2008, 05:06 AM, said:

I think licking doorknobs should be made illegal if you don't have a shop permit.

-5

Jenna, on Feb 26 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

Atheist, present~!

Back in ye olde day,large families were encouraged for help on the farm. In today's world, we have so much ridiculous technology that manual labor isn't required as much, and families only really need two children if they wish to experience parenting each gender...

"As will be detailed below, the behavior of the fetus and newborn is likely a reflection of reflexive brainstem activities which are produced in the absence of forebrain-mediated affective or cognitive processing, i.e. thinking, reasoning, understanding, or true emotionality (Joseph, 1996a, 1999; Levene, 1993; Sroufe, 1996). It is the much slower to develop forebrain which generates higher order cognitive activity and purposeful behaviors, and which is responsible for the expression and experience of true emotions including pleasure, rage, fear and joy and the desire for social-emotional contact (Joseph, 1992, 1996ab, 1999; MacLean, 1990)."
"It is rather obvious that the neonate is able to scream and cry and can even slightly lift the corners of the mouth as if smiling. However, these do not appear to be true emotions (Sroufe, 1996; however, see Izard, 1991). In fact, smiling, as well as screaming and crying can be produced from brainstem stimulation even with complete forebrain transection or destruction (Larson et al., 1994; Zhang et al., 1994; reviewed in Joseph, 1996a). Hence, neonatal and premature infant "smiling" or distress reactions to noxious stimulation (e.g. heel lance) are also likely brainstem mediated, particularly in that they may be triggered in the absence of any obvious stimulus source and following forebrain destruction or lack of development (anencephaly). However, as brainstem maturation continues in a caudal-rostral arc (Debakan, 1970; Langworthy, 1937), at term and over the following weeks and months, the immature hypothalamus (which sits atop the midbrain), and thus the forebrain, increasingly contributes to and gains control over these behaviors (Joseph, 1992, 1999)."
"The progression in behavioral complexity that begins with spontaneous fetal movements and which culminates with presumed preferences for the sound of mother's voice, also appear to reflect maturational events taking place in the brainstem, followed by forebrain structures. Indeed, the brainstem is first fashioned around the 33rd day of gestation (Bayer, 1995; Marin-Padilla, 1988; Sidman & Rakic, 1982) and nearly completes its cycle of development and myelination around the 7th gestational month (Gilles, Leviton, & Dooling, 1983; Langworthy, 1937; Yakovlev & Lecours, 1967). However, in contrast to the forebrain, the brainstem is incapable of cognition such as reasoning, comprehension, or thought (Joseph, 1996c), but instead reflexively reacts to a variety of stimuli in an exceedingly complex, albeit stereotyped fashion (Blessing, 1997; Cohen, Rossignol & Gillner, 1988; Cowie, Smith, & Robinson,1994; Steriade & McCarley, 1990)."
"For example, around the 10th week of gestation the fetus may take a single "breath" over a 24 hour time period, whereas by the 40th week "breathing" occurs much more frequently with some degree of regularity in regard to chest and abdominal movement
Nevertheless, the fetus and neonate appears incapable of thinking, reasoning, understanding, comprehending, or experiencing or generating "true" emotion or any semblance of higher order, forebrain mediated cognitive activity. Rather, although capable of learning, the increasingly complex behaviors demonstrated by the fetus and neonate, including head turning, eye movements, startle reactions, crying, screaming, and rudimentary smiling, are probably best described as brainstem reflexes."

If a woman, or girl, is kidnapped, raped, manages to live through it and becomes pregnant, such a situation would be traumatizing enough to a captive, but then having to deal with a growing child, and then having to deal with raising a child you didn't have time to plan for properly and having this new baggage to interfere with your life, a life you're trying to adjust back to after such a trauma. Especially if the girl is like, fourteen.

I could say several things about the bible. I won't.

What I will say is that human overpopulation is a problem in today's world. I'll step away from the concept of children born to mothers who SHOULDN'T BE, and shine a little light on it's effects on the world...

http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/images/2007/12/08/hadcrut3_temps.jpg

Throughout the years, as we use more of our resources in newer and particularly more dangerous ways, the temperature in parts of our Earth increase, commonly known as 'Global Warming'. (Though this is a misconception, the proper term would be 'Global Climate Change.') Global Warming occurs when the sun's rays and heat reach Earth and are kept within our atmosphere by something known as the 'Greenhouse Effect'. The Greenhouse Effect occurs because of greenhouse gases, excessive carbon emissions, and other such harmful substances (When in excess) we release into the atmosphere. The ozone layer depletes because of unfamiliar chemical reactions with carbon emissions and excessive CO2 and greenhouse gases which are being released into the atmosphere.

The greatest amounts of greenhouse gases come from our cities, our industries, our gasoline cars, our cigarettes burnt, hell, even cow farts. (Though cows have been farting since... The dawn of cows, their farts DO infact deplete the ozone. But this is irrelevant.) If you look briefly at the typical weather in a Northern Hemisphere city, you will notice that it rarely snows within MOST cities, while it will snow just outside of the city. Why? Too much heat being generated. Too much industry. Too much carbon emission
and other such gases and substances being released into the air. ... Snow melts.

Wanna see something scary?

World Population Clock

A approximately the second I'm typing this, ~6,655,824,550 people have come into existence and live at this moment, and you will notice that for every death counted on this clock, about 3 new births occur, outweighing these deaths dramatically. With more people, we use more of our resources, chop more of our trees, burn more fuel, smoke more cigarettes, cut down on the population of our animals (which becomes more and more of a problem as there are more mouths to feed, and animals are literally tortured in most agriculture facilities to produce more goods to give to this insane amount of people, but that too is irrelevant.) We come up with more ways to combat disease, which allow our bodies to grow immune to the diseases. once our bodies obtain this immunity, the diseases mutate into new and unfamiliar forms to our bodies, which can infect us once again. as this cycle continues, the diseases continue to mutate and will eventually grow to much more dangerous and fatal forms.

Look at China.

"China's population increases each year by approximately 12-13 million people, a number that exceeds the total population of individual countries such as Belgium, Greece, Cambodia, or Ecuador. Annual population growth in China actually exceeds the current population of Ohio, Illinois, or Pennsylvania." -Geography: China's Population

Since the 1970s, a one-child-per-family policy has been put into place in an attempt to cut down on China's immense population. To this day, the birth and death rate have decreased, but China still suffers the effects of such a large population, packed into apartments housing multiple families, crammed in busy streets, having not enough domestic jobs, to the point that they turn to Western companies who will use them as cheap labor, feeding the outsourcing problem in western countries such as America.

It angers me every time I'm out and about and I see another well-to-do American family piling their four little spoiled tots into their brand new gas guzzling SUV, just big enough to pile 'em all in and lug 'em to school, McDonald's, daycare, soccer practice, ballet (and more among the various other things they would rather stick their child in for an hour or so for some free time, instead of actually partaking in the raising of their child... But that's another topic for another time.) Children are very expensive to have, costing an approximate amount of $80,000 for every five years. An unhealthy child will cost inevitably more, and other such luxuries such as toys, summercamp, afterschool activities, birthday parties, etc. add on as well. There are many families who suffer poverty even prior to having children, and once that child is born, that child becomes a hole in said family's wallet, something that could be used to feed and sustain a childless family, rather than create yet another innocent child who will not be cared for properly, not fed enough, not be given many opportunities in life.

There are many children in this world in foster and orphanage care, children either abandoned or taken from abusive families by government or law enforcement. They are placed in foster systems, often riddled with abuse, and an environment in which children are surrounded and influenced in some way by other children uncared for, with their own behavioral and developmental issues.

"Children in foster care are three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems, including conduct disorders, depression, difficulties in school and impaired social relationships. Some experts estimate that about 30% of the children in care have marked or severe emotional problems. Various studies have indicated that children and young people in foster care tend to have limited education and job skills, perform poorly in school compared to children who are not in foster care, lag behind in their education by at least one year, and have lower educational attainment than the general population."

"Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. 2.1 percent of all child fatalities took place in foster care. While this may seem like a relatively low number, we must consider the contrast in population between children in the general population versus children in foster care. In 1997, there were nearly 71 million children in the general population (99.6%), but only 302 thousand in state care (.4%) in state care. As state care is supposed to be a 'safe haven', the number of fatalities should be less or at least equal to what it is in the general population of children. By this standard, there should have been less than .4% of child fatalities occurring in foster care, however, there was 5.25 times that amount. (31 states reporting)"

- Foster Care Statistics- Forstersurvivor.net

All because of families not suited to care for children.

Keyword: Planned Parenting. Too many children to care for, too many mouths to feed, too many resources being used, too many families, not enough homes, not enough jobs, not enough Earth. The wealthy families with 4+ children who spend their money frivolously could be donating their money to unfortunate families and children who need it. The excessive amounts of money they may spend on their excessive amounts of kids could go much further for those in absolute need of this money. Instead of birthing their own children, families could be adopting to help the problems of children in foster care systems. There just DOESN'T NEED TO BE this gigantic population, these multitudinous problems in the world, most in some part due to families that should never have been, families not planned out well, all which could have been stopped and planned properly if a woman does intend to start a family.

This is not to offend anyone on this board reading this, I myself am an adopted child born to an unmarried woman unable to care for a child, and I have no qualms or regrets about being adopted, though in reality, she is one of many women whom the world would have benefited from by having not undergone the entirety of her pregnancy. However, as it is, I am a fairly normal seventeen year old girl finishing highschool and moving onto college, I make good grades, I'm happy in life, and I love both of my parents dearly (though we've had our struggles- what parent and child hasn't). Many speak of a lost connection to a child adopted versus a biological child, and I can say from experience that I am no less happy in my family and in my life than friends I've had who have lived with their biological parents.







I suppose I should lose about ten points just for taking all this time. XD (That, and I feel ill and dizzy, I'm not exactly up to more detail and research right now...)

I don't intend to read all of that, +43

[Eugine]

This game sucks.

[Quacnar]

Yes it does, very very much. Self -8

[Moonear]

I think that this game is just a mindset created by the liberal media.

[Gio]

killercoz, on Feb 26 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

I don't intend to read all of that, +43

I thought that was funny.

[Drizzy Drake]

Gio wanna ask my question how you object to abortion, but have(and don't say you haven't becasue EVERYBODY has) killed some insects in your life?

[Golden Legacy]

Elliott, on Feb 26 2008, 04:21 AM, said:

Abortion should be allowed up until 18 months.
>_>

PDM, on Feb 26 2008, 04:23 AM, said:

Abortion should be allowed until the child learns how to talk.

Elliott, on Feb 26 2008, 05:16 AM, said:

Abortion should be allowed until the child is old enough to leave home.

laharl the slayer, on Feb 26 2008, 05:38 AM, said:

LEGALISE AND ENCOURAGE INFANTCIDE

Elliott, on Feb 26 2008, 05:44 AM, said:

DESTRUCTION OF ALL LIFE IS THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN.

YOU GUYS HAVE THE SICKEST, MOST DEPRAVED, INHUMANE THINKING POSSIBLE.

[Eugine]

Cuz human life is more important than other species Skidz. We were meant to eat em you know ^^

And who ever disagrees with me, stop eating meat or plants for the matter =)

[Drizzy Drake]

Actually, we were NOT meant to eat them. I beleive, and I haven't read the Bible since I was liek 11 so don't quote me on it, Adam and Eve never ate meat in the garden of eden, but they chose to once god kicked them out.

Besides, are we not all equals on this earth, us and the mammals/birds/reptiles/insects?

[Eugine]

Uh, don't really have to put religion into this. It's just the natural order of things.
The predator eats the prey.

[Drizzy Drake]

I am not trying to bring religion in it, but I mean, us killing insects, which most of us dont eat, is basically the same as killing an unborn child.

\
And the relegion thnig was more so for Gio, sorry.

[Moonear]

.eugine, on Feb 26 2008, 08:43 PM, said:

Uh, don't really have to put religion into this. It's just the natural order of things.
The predator eats the prey.

LMAO, sorry, just had to post it. It's so true.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1RSqoYFFPa0

[Eugine]

It's not the samething... @Skidz

[Drizzy Drake]

It really is. Sure, we can talk, we have machines, we have technology, but they are creatures just like us. They are creatures just like unborn children. Now dont get me wrong, kill as many insects as you want, I do it all the time, but if you beleive that abortion is wrong, then you should beleive that killing insects is wrong, seeing as we are all animals.

[Someone Else]

Hahaha, this topic is funny. ++respect, coz

And Dipsy summed up my feelings on abortion a page or two back.

[Drizzy Drake]

The whole "if they cant take care of it" thing?

[Eugine]

Don't kill insects, and I personally said abortion should be allowed only in the first trimester.

Anyway, are you saying all life is equal? Therefore, we have the same importance as those bacteria? Are you saying we have the same importance as those insects?

Religiously: Man was the ONLY specie to be made with God's image. We are superior.
Sientifically: We are the also superior specie. Don't have any info to provide though.

Sry man, but human life is more important. I sure wouldn't sacrifice a human for a ****roach.

[Someone Else]

In the grand scheme of things, Earth would be better off with no humans.

[Drizzy Drake]

We are the most dangerous thing on the planet.

Yes, human life is more important than a roach, but a 3 week old fetus? I am more aiming this at people who are against abortion.

[Eugine]

Well, it's cuz we all have different opinion on where 'human life' begins.

[Gio]

I do believe that eugine answered your question several times for you skidz. this being the most recent

.eugine, on Feb 26 2008, 07:59 PM, said:

Don't kill insects, and I personally said abortion should be allowed only in the first trimester.

Anyway, are you saying all life is equal? Therefore, we have the same importance as those bacteria? Are you saying we have the same importance as those insects?

Religiously: Man was the ONLY specie to be made with God's image. We are superior.
Sientifically: We are the also superior specie. Don't have any info to provide though.

Sry man, but human life is more important. I sure wouldn't sacrifice a human for a ****roach.

[Drizzy Drake]

But God still created the other creatures, which means he had to have created them to LIVE, not be killed by humans.

And now that you are here, did Adam and Eve eat meat in the Graden?

[Gio]

No they didn't, but like eugine said, us humans were created in the Lord's image, therefore we are superior to the other creatures.

[Drizzy Drake]

Ok, but didn't they not eat meat/kill other creatures for a reason, becasue God didn't want them to?

[Gio]

I would have to look it up, There also is a new testament in the bible to you know, and in one story jesus helps the disciples to catch fish. He tells them to cast their nets to the other side of the boat and they did. They ended up catching loads of fish that they ended up KILLING and eating and that would be in the new testament.

[Eugine]

What's your point anyway? Do you eat meat?

Uh, and why are you comparing the Garden of Eden to this world. It's totally different. Adam and Eve didn't even know anything about 'killing' there x.x
Much less, did they even eat? lolz

[Ironsight]

I think I opened a bible once. Didn't read it though, so I wouldn't know.

[Eugine]

Cud have sworn you were a conservative...

[Ironsight]

Hey, I can be conservative and never read the bible!

[Gio]

Well your typical conservative is Christian, that would have thrown me for a bit of a loop to.

[Ironsight]

I was never told you had to read the bible to be a conservative.

[Gio]

I am not saying that you can't be conservative. I am just saying it is a bit atypical.

[Eugine]

Most (all?) conservatives use the Bible as a source of reasoning. I find it very ironic to believe in conservative principles and not know it yourself...

[Folcon]

strange, most people that I've seen use the Bible as a ource for they're b!tching reasoning, seem to be liberal, not conservative. or has the meaning of the terms switched since thelast time I checked?

[Toasty]

Dipset, on Feb 26 2008, 05:41 PM, said:

Actually, we were NOT meant to eat them. I beleive, and I haven't read the Bible since I was liek 11 so don't quote me on it, Adam and Eve never ate meat in the garden of eden, but they chose to once god kicked them out.

Besides, are we not all equals on this earth, us and the mammals/birds/reptiles/insects?

It also states in the bible that "God's Chosen People" were to kill a lamb, spread it's blood over their door, and eat the lamb for supper during the passover. It also states that god made animals for us to eat. Meat is a far more abundant resource pf protein (which we need) than plants. Very few plants have enough protein in them to sustain a human.

[Gio]

escout, on Feb 26 2008, 09:18 PM, said:

strange, most people that I've seen use the Bible as a ource for they're b!tching reasoning, seem to be liberal, not conservative. or has the meaning of the terms switched since thelast time I checked?

g

Haha...funny....Not

No, seriously though, your typical conservative is a Christian. I mean in the U.S. there are a lot of Christian liberals to because the nation was founded on Christian principles.

[Golden Legacy]

Toasty, on Feb 26 2008, 11:22 PM, said:

It also states in the bible that "God's Chosen People" were to kill a lamb, spread it's blood over their door, and eat the lamb for supper during the passover.

Not to turn this into a religious debate, but I hardly think God would choose one people over another. He loves everyone, no? So why the exclusivity?

[kate]

omg I didn't know we were discussing animal cruelty n.n awesome, lemme go all PETA at you.

except I don't agree with PETA either..

oh and I'm conservative and not christian, so tada! well...canadian conservative

Anyways, reasons hurting animals is wrong: they are living creatures. K nuff said

alright, reasons why humans are not above them: 1) at least animals don't kill each other for like a new pair of shoes, so in some ways they are more intelligent. snapsnap.
2) we are only the most intelligent species in our interpretation of intelligence. Wow, human defined intelligence favors us, crazy.
3) For all you religious peeps who say we are superior, I've read the bible, we were put here to take care of the garden of eden and the animals in it, so really we're like the animal kingdoms gardener/maid. FTW

[Gio]

kate, on Feb 26 2008, 09:51 PM, said:

omg I didn't know we were discussing animal cruelty n.n awesome, lemme go all PETA at you.

except I don't agree with PETA either..

oh and I'm conservative and not christian, so tada! well...canadian conservative

Anyways, reasons hurting animals is wrong: they are living creatures. K nuff said

alright, reasons why humans are not above them: 1) at least animals don't kill each other for like a new pair of shoes, so in some ways they are more intelligent. snapsnap.
2) we are only the most intelligent species in our interpretation of intelligence. Wow, human defined intelligence favors us, crazy.
3) For all you religious peeps who say we are superior, I've read the bible, we were put here to take care of the garden of eden and the animals in it, so really we're like the animal kingdoms gardener/maid. FTW

Yet again let me say that was the old testament and also we failed God and got kicked out of the garden of Eden so therefore I don't think we are maids of the animal kingdom.

[Quacnar]

Okay all species should be naturally equivalent to each other, BUT because the species Homo sapien is superior to other species mentally and physically we dominate. Because it is a dog eat dog world and we veiws ourselves as being more important, it is not consider cruel to kill a 4 legged being, but it is cruel to kill a fellow human. If one thinks that every single life has equal importance, they should try to wipe out the human species, because we kill many innocent animals for pleasure and not necessity. Plus we are slowly destroying the enviroment for all wildlife.

[Eugine]

Why exactly should all species be naturally equivalent to each other? Plus way to contradict yourself...

"BUT because the species Homo sapien is superior to other species mentally and physically"

If we are superior, we are not naturally equivalent.

[Split Infinity]

I think it's generally accepted that the murder of any mammal is illegal.

[Eugine]

Then why is beef big business?

[Split Infinity]

Good point. I think you need a license for that though.

[Gio]

Quote

Then why is beef big business?

thats what I was wondering. lol

[Eugine]

To export, but not to kill.

[Golden Legacy]

Going out of a person's way to torture animals or to use them for recreational purposes is cruel and immoral, as is harming them in any way.

However, while I would never go out of my way to hurt them and I certainly believe in their rights, I still will eat meat if the act has been done.

Call it hypocrisy, but that's my view on it.

[Eugine]

Yea lol. I basically think the samething GL.

[Quacnar]

Split Infinity, on Feb 26 2008, 11:40 PM, said:

I think it's generally accepted that the murder of any mammal is illegal.

Humans are mammals....

[Split Infinity]

Which is why it's illegal. Duh.

[Gio]

The contest in this topic has seemed to just disappear.

[Eugine]

Cuz its a bit pointless.

[Gio]

A lot of stuff we post is pointless lol

[Eugine]

This is a pointless post.

[Gio]

This is to

[kate]

woah, let's at least stay on off topic...wait wut.

wow i can pretty much just ditto what gl said

so yeah. ditto.

oh and I don't believe the new testament, only old. Sooo hence my reasoning. I'm old school :D

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Feb 26 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

Not to turn this into a religious debate, but I hardly think God would choose one people over another. He loves everyone, no? So why the exclusivity?

It doesn't mean that he loves them and no one else, but those were the descendants of David (I think, I'll have to check again) who he blessed.

There's more to it, but I can't recite the bible from memory, so I'll get back to you on that. /=

[Laharl]

something very important has been left out of this debate

http://www.lolwut.com/pics/abortion.jpg

[Split Infinity]

+3

[Drizzy Drake]

Yes, yes it has.

BUt no, I am all for killing animals, but I am trying to see from the point of view of people who aren't for it.

If you look at a fetus that is 1 month old, what do you see, VERY little. If you look at a lamb that is fully grown, you see so much, yet you are apposed to killing something this>>. small, but yet you are saying you'd like to kill a lamb?

This is hypocrisy at it's worse. But wait, oh no, it is still killing a human, but really, I beleive(and don't quote me on it), a human has no real features at 1 month, so really, its jsut a dot in the women's body.

[Laharl]

if we didnt have abortion then we'd have

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z254/laharl_the_slayer_07/nazivampire.gif

[Jenna]

But I see no fangs on that Vampire! It could be that the fangs are hidden from view as they're sunken into the baby, but it doesn't look to be so, from what I can see of the constantly flashing picture.

[Saturos S.]

Because of that pic, I'm spamming this topic to page 9.

[Laharl]

when you do i'll quote myself mahahahahahahha

[Elliott]

Dipset, on Feb 27 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

I am not trying to bring religion in it, but I mean, us killing insects, which most of us dont eat, is basically the same as killing an unborn child.

\
And the relegion thnig was more so for Gio, sorry.

Well that's fair enough, I mean a cricket is equal to a human being in a lot of ways. They both are alive and uh... well...
Next thing you know you'll be comparing stepping on a flower to abortion, Christ.

[Ironsight]

If you ask me a 1 month old fetus has about as much humanity as a chicken breast. It's literaly just a lump of flesh. It has none of the qualites that make a human human, so it can't count as murder.

[Drizzy Drake]

@ Elliot-It is a ****ing living creature. Oh my, you have oppesable thumbs :D. And oh wait, you can...:o, COOK FOOD. Wow. That makes you better.

Why then, is animal cruetly illegal, hmm?

And I didn't compare a 5 year old child to an insect, I compared a ****ing fetus that has NOTHING that makes up a human being.

[Laharl]

wow....Skids is an animal rights nut.

who'd of thought it?

and remember

laharl the slayer, on Feb 27 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

if we didnt have abortion then we'd have

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z254/laharl_the_slayer_07/nazivampire.gif

X3

[Folcon]

I was a little disgusted while I was on campus the other day. There was a display set up on abortion, calling it genocide and equating abortion to Naziism and racisit lynching. And have large, blown up pictures of aborted fetuses was taking it a little too far imo.

[Drizzy Drake]

...NEVER call me an animal rights activist. I'll kill any animal you want me to, jsut pick it. *Raises shotgun up*. Just say the word.

Just for this topic, I am putting up areguments that an animal activist would use, because people's reasonings of why abortion shouldn't be allowed are jsut ****ing retarded. *Looks at Agitio*.

[Laharl]

Dipset, on Feb 27 2008, 10:35 PM, said:

...NEVER call me an animal rights activist. I'll kill any animal you want me to, jsut pick it. *Raises shotgun up*. Just say the word.

you are an animal. go nuts XP

[Drizzy Drake]

Alright. *Shoots Agito* See, I am in NO way an animal rights activist. He has that freaky, buffalo-looking beard gonig on.

[Ironsight]

I fail to see how a human has anything in common with a cricket besides that they are living organisms. We earned our right to kill what we want because we are on the top of the foodchain. I never see a lion protest killing a gazelle because it's alive.

[Drizzy Drake]

They kill a gazelle because they NEED to. They need that for food. We however, kill for greed, and are the most retarded creature on this planet. Name one thing humans have done for the enviroment?

[Laharl]

i hear crickets make good fishing bait these days.....

[Ironsight]

Humans need to eat too, Skidz.

[Folcon]

but unlike us humans, lions don't kill for sport. And would you still say that if some creatyre evloved or showed up that was higher up on the food chain than us? Like Chiropterans?

[Laharl]

yes all humans kill cattle for sport, not because they want to eat them or something :b

[Drizzy Drake]

DarkSword, on Feb 27 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

Humans need to eat too, Skidz.

But we don't NEED to eat meat. Grain, vegtables, and milk products, are all perfectly good foods that we can eat.

escout, on Feb 27 2008, 05:52 PM, said:

but unlike us humans, lions don't kill for sport. And would you still say that if some creatyre evloved or showed up that was higher up on the food chain than us? Like Chiropterans?

And the funny thing is, if a shark kills a human, people go insane, but if we kill a shark, we are heroes.

Aren't they just eating? Answer me that, oh plllllease try and answer me that?

[Folcon]

key part being a shark. It is illegal to go out and indiscrimanetly kills a bunch of sharks. Or to go finning. (catch sharks and cut off the dorsal fin and throw the still living shark back into the water)

[Moonear]

Dipsy, why don't you understand that we are the higher being? We are more important than sharks, and don't even go saying that we're not.

[Drizzy Drake]

Still, if a lion kills a human, they go out and kill it right? Isn't it jsut getting it's food, just liek we do with cows?

Prove me wrong people.

EDIT-Yes, but we shouldn't go killing a creature jsut because it is donig what nature intended it to. And I am gonig to bring religion into this. Is God didn't want sharks killing humans, he would NOT have made them that way. They are just having LUNCH, jsut liek we would.

And sure, we are superior, but we have becoem the worst thing for this planet.

[Moonear]

ihatekraden, on Feb 27 2008, 06:02 PM, said:

Dipsy, why don't you understand that we are the higher being? We are more important than sharks, and don't even go saying that we're not.

[Folcon]

I find it interesting how the conversation has gone form abortion to animal rights

[Drizzy Drake]

@ IHK-Yes we are more important, but still ,the animal is jsut doing what it's instincts tell us. Like that is what you are not understanding. Who, or whatever created this Earth, wanted sharks to be allowed to kill humans, or they wouldn't have created them that way.

So basically, you are saying that animals can kill animals for food, but the second it lays a finger/tooth/fin/antane(sp) on us almighty humans, who are in fact killing this planet, it is the ****nig devil?

[Laharl]

Skid is in zealous mode

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!!!

*flees*

seriously though, you're getting intense on a topic you supposedly have nothing to do with

[Drizzy Drake]

Sorry, I'm just in a pissy mood, and I seem to be getting into this topic alot. I am NOT an animal rights activist, but I ama against people being for killing animals, but against killing unborn babies.

[Jenna]

Don't make me crank out an extensive blurb on Natural Selection. I'll do it. You've seen that I can. >3

Don't think I want to, though. And besides, it doesn't help my argument... If a baby in my belly gets in the way of my life, I'd KILL that little bugger. 'Nuff said. And I see no problem with this, I'm actually aiding the planet in doing so. =]

[PDM]

"Im Playing"

[Drizzy Drake]

Is it jsut me, or did that post not contribute to this topic at all?

[Laharl]

either did yours >>

and his was funny

need to stay on topic.....

Abortion lulz

[Gio]

Dipset, on Feb 27 2008, 05:06 PM, said:

@ IHK-Yes we are more important, but still ,the animal is jsut doing what it's instincts tell us. Like that is what you are not understanding. Who, or whatever created this Earth, wanted sharks to be allowed to kill humans, or they wouldn't have created them that way.

So basically, you are saying that animals can kill animals for food, but the second it lays a finger/tooth/fin/antane(sp) on us almighty humans, who are in fact killing this planet, it is the ****nig devil?

But who created us gave us the intelligence to come up with ways to kill a shark. I am just saying lol.

What did happen to the original topic?

[Folcon]

yeah, shouldn't there be like a massive amount of points to be awarded

[Laharl]

Gio, on Feb 28 2008, 03:08 AM, said:

What did happen to the original topic?

it died because

laharl the slayer, on Feb 27 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

if we didnt have abortion then we'd have

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z254/laharl_the_slayer_07/nazivampire.gif

[Gio]

escout, on Feb 27 2008, 09:37 PM, said:

yeah, shouldn't there be like a massive amount of points to be awarded

Or lost

laharl the slayer, on Feb 27 2008, 09:55 PM, said:

it died because

wow

The flashing hurts my head.

[Folcon]

Best qoute for religion ever

"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards" Mark Twain

[Jenna]

I suppose points are no longer taken into account.

[PDM]

laharl the slayer, on Feb 27 2008, 06:34 PM, said:

Abortion lulz

http://www.court-records.net/rips/objection.gif
Abortion is serious business!