[ThankMeLater]

gnorant student. (title fail.. it should really just stop letting you type when it's going to be cut off.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4...player_embedded
damn.

[Toasty]

ALL HAIL PALESTINE! THE NATION WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY BEING TRAMPLED ON BY ISRAEL!

[Eugine]

Oh Gawd, Israel isn't innocent in the matter, but they're sure damn not the ones at fault.

I have to admit, I hardly follow Middle Eastern news currently because both sides annoy me so much, and it's like there is no progress. Ever.

But I have to admit, why does it always feel like if Israel is the one who is always willing to compromise, while the Palestinians want everything?

[Mallick]

Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 03:28 PM, said:

I have to admit, I hardly follow Middle Eastern news currently because both sides annoy me so much, and it's like there is no progress. Ever.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_T4Wk9M2ObE

[Toasty]

Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 03:28 PM, said:

Oh Gawd, Israel isn't innocent in the matter, but they're sure damn not the ones at fault.

I have to admit, I hardly follow Middle Eastern news currently because both sides annoy me so much, and it's like there is no progress. Ever.

But I have to admit, why does it always feel like if Israel is the one who is always willing to compromise, while the Palestinians want everything?

This is precisely my thought on the matter.

[Legolastom]

Please never defend Israel, fucking one of the most disgusting nations on the face of this planet.

[ThankMeLater]

Legolastom, on Mar 30 2010, 04:58 PM, said:

the most disgusting nation on the face of this planet.

i thought that was britain?

[Legolastom]

Oh wait yes it was thank you.

[Golden Legacy]

Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 06:28 PM, said:

But I have to admit, why does it always feel like if Israel is the one who is always willing to compromise, while the Palestinians want everything?

Or, let's have a different perspective: why does it always feel like Palestinians are willing to compromise, while Israel wants everything?

Toasty, on Mar 30 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

ALL HAIL PALESTINE! THE NATION WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY BEING TRAMPLED ON BY ISRAEL!

Let me guess... Israel marks the 2nd coming of the Christ, the arrival of the Armageddon, and the end of times during which all humans will profess to their sins in front of thy Lord.

[ThankMeLater]

oh shi- son!

[Eugine]

Riad, examples of the Palestinians compromising are?

Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip.
Israel withdrew from Lebanon.

Two compromise I can list from my head. What did they get in return? More rocket attacks >.>

[Toasty]

Golden Legacy, on Mar 30 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

Or, let's have a different perspective: why does it always feel like Palestinians are willing to compromise, while Israel wants everything?

If Israel wanted everything, they wouldn't be compromising. But because Palestine wan'ts everything, they continue to fight until they've obtained it.

Golden Legacy, on Mar 30 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

Let me guess... Israel marks the 2nd coming of the Christ, the arrival of the Armageddon, and the end of times during which all humans will profess to their sins in front of thy Lord.

EXACTLY!

WAY TO GO AT DETECTING SARCASM!

[Golden Legacy]

Quote

Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip.

And maintains the most inhuman blockade of 1.5 million people in an open-air prison, where medicine, food, water, fuel, and clothing are cut off, no one is allowed out, and air raids are a regular basis of life.

Quote

Israel withdrew from Lebanon.

Israel did not withdraw from Lebanon. Israel had an illegal military presence in Lebanon since the time of the 1982 war, and subsequently maintained control of the Shebaa Farms even after the "withdrawal" of 2000.

Quote

Examples of Palestinians compromising?

http://weblogs.asp.net/blogs/rosherove/image_thumb_yT35eg.png

In 1988, the Palestinian leadership accepted that the future state of Palestine would exist as in panel three. 78% of the land was recognized to belong to Israel, with 22% of the former land (comprising the West Bank and Gaza) as their new state.

[Eugine]

Quote

And maintains the most inhuman blockade of 1.5 million people in an open-air prison, where medicine, food, water, fuel, and clothing are cut off, no one is allowed out, and air raids are a regular basis of life.

Unfortunately so, but you have to remember this is not by choice but a necessity to prevent rocket attacks. Remember, Hamas who controls the Gaza Strip has already indicated their number one goal - the destruction of Israel. Sure, it punishes the people more than Hamas, but didn't the people elect Hamas?

And Israel has been softening the blockade every year.
Israel to allow clothes, shoes into blockaded Gaza

Netanyahu:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speec...22-Mar-2010.htm
My government has removed hundreds of roadblocks, barriers and checkpoints facilitating Palestinian movement. As a result, we have helped spur a fantastic boom in the Palestinian economy (coffee Shops, restaurants, businesses, even multiplex theaters). And we announced an unprecedented moratorium on new Israeli construction in Judea and Samaria.

Quote

Israel did not withdraw from Lebanon. Israel had an illegal military presence in Lebanon since the time of the 1982 war, and subsequently maintained control of the Shebaa Farms even after the "withdrawal" of 2000.

I'm pretty sure it's still withdrawing. Withdrawing, did not benefit Israel in anyway btw.

And am I suppose to just believe some picture, without any info on why there were changes?

[Mallick]

Moved to debates forum - I see where this is going. >_>

[Toasty]

http://www.goldensun-syndicate.net/forum/public/style_images/gssv3/snapback.png' alt='View Post' />Golden Legacy, on Mar 30 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

In 1988, the Palestinian leadership accepted that the future state of Palestine would exist as in panel three. 78% of the land was recognized to belong to Israel, with 22% of the former land (comprising the West Bank and Gaza) as their new state.

These losses of land all happened after Palestine lost wars which it started, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Golden Legacy]

Are you joking me Eugine? I'm well aware that Israel made the kind, virtuous decision to allow in clothes and shoes into Gaza... for the first time in three years. Three years, where not a single piece of clothing has been allowed in (try to wrap your mind around that), or cement for Palestinians to build homes, or fuel to run their homes, or electrical parts for sewage plants. Three years without medicine or food, or fertilizer or crops.

Here is B'Tselem, a Jewish human rights organization:

http://www.btselem.o...Gaza_Status.asp
http://www.btselem.o...ish/Gaza_Strip/

"Other than the [withdrawal] mentioned above, the disengagement did not lead to any improvement in the living conditions of the area's residents, and Israel continues to violate their rights by its various acts and omissions."

Eighty percent of the residents of the Gaza Strip live under the poverty line.

"Air space and territorial waters: Israel continues to maintain complete control over the air and sea space of the Gaza Strip. Control of the air space provides Israel with the ability to effectively and easily control actions on the ground, and to interfere with radio and television broadcasts. Control of the coastal area and territorial waters enables Israel , among other things, to restrict the activity of Palestinian fishermen. Israel 's control is also manifested in the need to obtain Israeli approval to operate a seaport and airport, the lack of which impairs freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip and impairs the Palestinians' conduct of foreign trade."

"Imports and exports: Israel continues to exercise complete control over the movement of goods into the Gaza Strip. The three crossing points designated for this purpose – Karni, Sufa, and Kerem Shalom – are under Israel 's sole control. Rafah Crossing, the administration of which was handed over to the Palestinian Authority, has a terminal for the crossing of goods, but according to the November 2005 agreement, the crossing is limited to exports. The importance of the PA's independent ability to export goods via Rafah Crossing is limited, given that most of the exports are intended for Israel or are shipped abroad via Israeli ports. As a result, most exports pass through Karni. Israel 's almost complete control of the movement of goods to and from the Gaza Strip has far-reaching consequences: Israel 's decision to close the commercial crossings, a frequent occurrence, paralyzes the Gaza Strip economy and causes a shortage of basic goods, including food and medicines."

Here is the Red Cross, Jewish Voice for Peace, and an additional article.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/h...a-update-211209
A quote: "Key infrastructure in Gaza is run-down. The population lives under constant threat of a collapse of water, sanitation and electricity services.

The closure is paralysing any new construction. With few exceptions, such as water pipes imported by the private sector, no building materials have been allowed through the Israeli crossing points in 2009."

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish...tsoutgaza.shtml

"You wouldn't know it from following the mainstream media, or from listening to any of the US presidential candidates, but some 1.5 million Palestinians are being slowly starved to death, right now, in Gaza. They have been barred from getting the food, fuel, and medical supplies they need to survive. Eighty percent of the population is dependent on food aid.

What's more, the Israeli government claims this collective punishment will protect the people of Sderot, Israel who have suffered tremendously from unrelenting rocket attacks from Gazan militants. But the Gaza blockade, and Israel's ongoing restrictions of goods and free movement, home demolitions, and use of excessive force, including dropping bombs on the heads of civilians, has only caused further loss of both Palestinian and Israeli life. Since 2000, almost 3,000 Gazans and 12 residents of Sderot have died. There is a better way to bring peace, security and justice to both peoples."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...r-40-years.html

In very few ways have I seen anyone try to justify the collective starvation of 1.5 million people.

Eugine, on Mar 30 2010, 07:42 PM, said:

Unfortunately so, but you have to remember this is not by choice but a necessity to prevent rocket attacks. Remember, Hamas who controls the Gaza Strip has already indicated their number one goal - the destruction of Israel. Sure, it punishes the people more than Hamas, but didn't the people elect Hamas?

As opposed to the choice of the US-backed "moderate Fatah", an organization notorious for its corruption and use of torture? The fair and free elections were between them and the organization that spent 80-90% of its resources on schools, jobs, infrastructure...

Quote

And am I suppose to just believe some picture, without any info on why there were changes?

For the same reason, I suppose, you quoted directly the Israeli Prime Minister and took him at his word, without any info to justify or support his claims.

Toasty, on Mar 30 2010, 08:01 PM, said:

These losses of land all happened after Palestine lost wars which it started, correct me if I'm wrong.

You would be wrong.

[Someone Else]

I was going to ask why this topic was in trash, and then not in trash, but never mind I think I know.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z84/WindDude/1246021627209.gif

[Eugine]

It is a kind, virtuous decision GL. Clothes and shoes were allowed to enter the Gaza Strip before through international aid groups, so you are being a bit misleading with the statement "not a single piece of clothing has been allowed". When private traders bring clothes into Gaza, they, most of the time smuggle weapons as well.

You can use current behaviour to predict future behaviour, can you? Well, let us take a look at what the residents of Gaza import when given a chance. You are more informed than me of Middle East issues, so I am sure you know about the tunnels between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians always argued the tunnels were used to import food and clothing, but as reported the majority of smuggled goods are weapons, which, guess what, are used against the Israelis and support Hamas. Actually, rather than constructing the tunnel to smuggle food and clothing, the tunnels were actually constructed to facilitate Hamas war against Israel! How ironic.

It is always easy to portray the Palestinians as victims, after all, they are living in worse conditions than the Israelis and it is hard to justify what Israel is doing, but sometimes you have to do what is necessary. Israel, like the US, and every other democracy elects a government to fight for its people... and well, that is what Israel is doing. We know Israel goal is not the complete destruction of the Palestinians, but the survival of its country. I honestly, and you honestly, cannot say the Palestinians, and Hamas in particular goal is the same... the survival of its people.

Oh, look... another rocket attack.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2010/0318/I...-since-Gaza-war

[Golden Legacy]

A kind, virtuous decision? 42 years of occupation, 60 since the first refugees were ethnically cleansed off their land, and you consider it kind and virtuous that ten trucks of clothing were allowed into Gaza, for the first time in the past three years? Instead of asking why such a policy was invoked that would deny 1.5 million people the humane right to have something to wear in the first place? Which refuses to allow them to repair their power grids, their sewage plants, where 90% of the water is unsuitable for drinking? Where farmers are sniped for tending to their land and crops, fisherman are killed for trying to get food, children die because of the crippling lack of medicine? Where the airspace is controlled, the seas are blocked, the land sealed off in what amounts to the largest open-air prison in the entire world as Jews and Holocaust survivors have said?

How do you explain the siezing of land in the West Bank, where no Hamas is in power? How do you explain the disgusting policy of bulldozing Palestinian homes, of uprooting their olive trees, of imprisonment of women and children, of shooting down teenagers? How do you explain the policy where, for 40 years, your land has been taken to satisfy the egos of religious zealots who claim it was theirs based on a Biblical prophecy, where international law is recklessly and continually defied that says you cannot ethnically displace a native population off their land?

The split between Hamas and Fatah is a very recent phenomenon in these terms (2006), and prior to that, under the united leadership of the PLO, these colonizing acts by Israel continued unabated, as they do today. What about the 60 years BEFORE the tunnels or the rockets that came into existence just a few years ago? What about the West Bank, where no rockets have been fired, where Palestinians are separated from their families, farms, and schools? Where people are indefinitely imprisoned without trial in defiance of the Geneva Conventions? Where Palestinians are prevented from reaching their churches and mosques, where 600 checkpoints are set-up to where a ten minute walk to see your family becomes a five hour wait at the mercy of armed soldiers? Where because of your identity, you can be forcibly removed and displaced into separate Bantustan homelands as blacks suffered in South Africa? What about the illegal settling of Israel's population onto occupied land, its most extremist of extremists, armed to the teeth and given protection by soldiers guarding their homes and shooting anyone who comes within a 500 meter radius (on land that is not theirs)? Where activists from around the world are killed trying to defend a family from having their home torn down or their lives uprooted? The refugees from 1948 who still hold the keys to their homes and yet are not given the fundamental right of return?

Your entire knowledge of Israel-Palestine seems to be based on a superficial understanding dating back about five years. Ongoing occupation, colonizing, killings, and acts equivalent of Apartheid have been going on for half a century across generations. It is impossible to even label your entire post as one based on a strawman or misinformation... it is a matter of being uninformed, of having a view so narrow that daring to look at the extended history and the root causes would otherwise put an end to your naive depiction of who the victim is.

P.S. Oh look, four Palestinian teenagers killed.

[Legolastom]

Or how about this: Nobody gets any nukes. Sounds a lot better to me.

[Golden Legacy]

Legolastom, on Jun 19 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

Or how about this: Nobody gets any nukes. Sounds a lot better to me.

This.

[Toasty]

Legolastom, on Jun 19 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

Or how about this: Nobody gets any nukes. Sounds a lot better to me.

Too bad that's impossible. The only reason everyone has nukes, is because it's impossible to keep them out of the hands of every person who would actually use them offensively.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't nedd MAD to keep things stable. However, though unfortunate as it is, we don't live in a perfect world.


Also, the thought of Iran gaining nuclear weapons is quite disturbing to me. The leader of Iran is the kind of person that would rather see Israel burn, than be inhabited by anyone other than muslims. I'm quite certain that if given the opportunity to obtain nuclear weapons, Iran would not hesitate to use them.

[Legolastom]

Yeah I meant nobody NEW get any nukes, it would be brilliant if nobody had any nukes but that's obviously pretty impossible right now.

[Golden Legacy]

Toasty, on Jun 23 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

Too bad that's impossible. The only reason everyone has nukes, is because it's impossible to keep them out of the hands of every person who would actually use them offensively.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't nedd MAD to keep things stable. However, though unfortunate as it is, we don't live in a perfect world.

What you can do instead is to work on ending nuclear proliferation and working on securing loose nuclear weapons and materials and working with other nations to prevent their spread. You can't get rid of nuclear weapons, but you can find a mutual basis to contain them and reduce current stockpiles while ensuring that they are safe and secure.

Quote

Also, the thought of Iran gaining nuclear weapons is quite disturbing to me. The leader of Iran is the kind of person that would rather see Israel burn, than be inhabited by anyone other than muslims. I'm quite certain that if given the opportunity to obtain nuclear weapons, Iran would not hesitate to use them.

The 'leader' of Iran is the Ayatollah and the members of the Supreme Council. On issues pertaining to foreign policy and the military, the President (I assume that's you mean by 'leader') is a largely ceremonial role that has no final word nor sets the policy that the nation as a whole follows.

[Caael]

Can I spark this debate up again, I found it really interesting to read and its a subject that I'm intruiged in.

[Mallick]

Caael, on Jul 20 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

Can I spark this debate up again, I found it really interesting to read and its a subject that I'm intruiged in.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Fu9vR2XdprA