[Fun Guy Fungi]

Think for a moment about where all the ships came from. Count them:

Piers' ship, which got washed in from Lemuria, and therefore just appeared at the very beginning of TLA, on Idejima.

Babi's ship, which was kept under guard for years until Isaac and Co. used it at the end of GS. By the way, I'm assuming they set sail after the tidal wave, as the wave came mere moments after the lighting of Venus, and Isaac and Co. went on a "grueling search" to find Jenna, which would take a few days.

Menardi's ship: Where the heck did this one come from?

Think about it: it can't be one of the two above for reasons I've described, it can't be from Lemuria, as the people there talk about how they haven't had visitors in decades, and there's really no other place it could be from. Any ideas?

[kate]

the one on idejima is menardi's ship...pier's was in a different place

[Fun Guy Fungi]

I didn't word that very well... I meant Piers' ship appeared in the beginning of the game when you are on Idejima, as that's when the tidal wave appears.

[Daniel_WaterAdept]

I assume that the Proxians had the ship from some long past time when the Golden Age was still in its prime. That would make sense considering the fact that Prox had been seperated from the rest of the world for a long time.

[The Postman]

Not only that, but Saturos and co. had to have some sort of ship to come to Vale, and they don't got no trees to build one, so I agree with the theory that the Proxians already had one, considering they're the most likely candidates for being the ruling civilization of fire at the time.

[Linear]

:D *blink* I sort of agree with your way in thinking, but I have another thought of it.

[Enoch]

This topic by itself proves my point in my subject on psynergetic superpowers. Prox had to be strong if they had the same boat

[Tachyon360]

No they wouldn't have to be a superpower. That would be like saying, "Hey, lookit! Bangladesh got a fully stocked battleship! Oh no, America and the European Union now have competition."

That ship could have come about three ways.
1. It was already there, left by a Lemurian from a bygone era.
2. They stole it from someone who happened to have one (besides Lemuria).
3. They built it. It doesn't mean they have vast amounts of wealth, power, and Psynergy to do it, so long as they'd have the plans and raw materials.

Superpower. n. ('sü-p&r-"pau&r):
a. an extremely powerful nation; specifically : one of a very few dominant states in an era when the world is divided politically into these states and their satellites
b. an international governing body able to enforce its will upon the most powerful states

[The Postman]

True true, or they could`ve had a normal boat then gotten one elsewhere.
At some point I thought they had to be a ruling nation of some sort before considering that PProx is right next to the Mars Lighthouse, but then I realized that Lemuria wasn`t even close to the Mercury lighthouse, so my argument doesn`t really hold.

[eternaldeath09]

i think that the ship at the beginning of the game was not Piers because in the game, Piers said that he used the tidal wave to get OUT of Lumaria and he didn't use the Sea of Time passage

Also Jenna said that Menardi had a ship waitin' fer them once they lit the lighthouses or something like that. And I think that Menardi's ship was Lemurian because when Kraden checked it out on Idejima, he said that the thing to make it move wasn't there. Then Jen complained about the ship being a dud. Then Kraden explained to her that Menardi had used some special item (can't remember if he said exactly what it was) to make it move around. I honetly thought at first that Piers' ship was Menardi's cause they looked the same on the world map (hmm, wonder why?)

Anyway, I want to know how Alex Agatio and Karst got around. At first, I thougt that Alex used Menardi's but then I remembered that it doesn't work and that Alex had been loking for a ship as well as Felix and Co. But I guess he could've found a black orb to make it move or something.

[The Postman]

To answer that, plot holes are a game's best friends sometimes.

[Fun Guy Fungi]

It would be possible that Prox had one, but you would think it would be in a sorry state of repair. It's been hundreds of years since anything left Lemuria, or so they say. And the Proxians don't look like they would even know how to get that thing in the water, let alone repair it or keep it running.

As for Alex, it's possible that they used a normal boat, perhaps one that Agatio and Karst had already made.

[Kuraikitsune]

Hmm.... never thought of Karst and Agatio's boat. Remember how Alex could teleport? Screw a ship if all you need is Psynergy to zip around the world.
Remember that Prox is surrounded by water. Perhaps the ship was actually in the ocean, in a dock next to the city. Remember that Prox and Lemuria were two of the Golden Age civilizations. Because the ship was probably built by Lemurians, who were also surrounded by water, it's fair to assume that the wood on the is somehow immune to rotting... I don't think they'd get very far in a rotten boat, and after centuries of living with Alchemy, someone's bound to figure out how to make a damn boat waterproof.
Also, remember that Saturos and Menardi were the only ones who came out of Sol Sanctum. You can recall them saying that they were the only two to make it out alive. This indicates that there was probably a large group of Proxians with them, which may have helped them through the icy seas (Remember, it's not that bad until Jupiter and Mercury lighthouses were lit.). I guess that's the only way I can figure out Menardi's ship... I can't really think of anything else. Feel free to argue. ^_^

[eternaldeath09]

You tell me to argue and argue I shall. F.Y.I. I have a passion for argument and sometimes may disprove my own theories....so please bare with me.

Now they might've used a normal boat i mean there are some trees around Prox and if there are lots of big guys like Agatio then they could've carried it into the water. But then theres the giant wall of ice or did you forget about that? Now Agatio and Karst couldve went with Menardi and Saturos but then wouldn't you think the game mighta pointed that out or say that they were "killed" in Sol Sanctum?

Or they couldve been in disguise like Felix and had escaped Sol Sanctum, avoided Isaac and co, never heard from Saturos and Menardi again, they found out that Isaac had killed them on Venus Lighthouse (how did Felix and Co hear aobut Sat. and Menardi's death, i frogot, more importantly how'd Karst and Agatio find out?)

I say they left Prox after getting tired of waiting for Saturos and Menardi. But that leaves the bloody giant wall o' ice to be dealt with....now if they destroyed it then why's it there when you visit prox?

I ran across an interestingFAQ over at GameFaqs saying that Agatio has his own ship. But I highly doubt that because if Alex traveled with Agatio and Karst and hes on MT. Aleph he must have gotten there somehow. I sure you can't just teleport anywhere in the world....although his teleports better then the one you get in the game.....maybe he teleported, maybe he sailed who knows for sure, *cough* designers at Camelot. *cough*

[Enoch]

Quote

No they wouldn't have to be a superpower. That would be like saying, "Hey, lookit! Bangladesh got a fully stocked battleship! Oh no, America and the European Union now have competition."

That ship could have come about three ways.
1. It was already there, left by a Lemurian from a bygone era.
2. They stole it from someone who happened to have one (besides Lemuria).
3. They built it. It doesn't mean they have vast amounts of wealth, power, and Psynergy to do it, so long as they'd have the plans and raw materials.

Superpower. n. ('sü-p&r-"pau&r):
a. an extremely powerful nation; specifically : one of a very few dominant states in an era when the world is divided politically into these states and their satellites
b. an international governing body able to enforce its will upon the most powerful states

Well put it like this. Isreal, being rather small in size, holds technology that is rather advanced and their militery power and training is amongst the most extensive on the planet. I would feel fare to put them against Russia.(not that they would ever want to)

Mind you, What I say here is only theory, and it's not like what I say is concrete. To be honest, I would not bet my life on the theorys I have presented here, or even on my topic. Though they make some sense. :D
............
Don't they? ^_^

[Tachyon360]

That tiny stript of stolen land called Isreal only has their military so up-to-date because America and Britian pour so much money into it. If everyone were to just abandon it, Palestine would get its land back quickly enough. Nevermind the fact that a battle with Russia would get the US and UK involved, Isreal would hardly be a challenge for the Russians.

Besides, I was comparing Prox to random third-world countries. Isreal is a first-world country.

[eternaldeath09]

thats so true.... anyway we're goin off topic here if u want to talk about ancient superpowers of Weyward go to the topic in this forum named The Summit Of Two Psynergetic Powers

menardi's ship might be under the sea when the wave just crashed into idejima
or it drifted off and got infested with monsters like piers and then crashed somewhere
thats wat i figure of menadris ship either that or alex took it usd his "special" teleport to move it around

[Kuraikitsune]

eternaldeath09, on Sep 30 2004, 12:47 AM, said:

You tell me to argue and argue I shall. F.Y.I. I have a passion for argument and sometimes may disprove my own theories....so please bare with me.

Now they might've used a normal boat i mean there are some trees around Prox and if there are lots of big guys like Agatio then they could've carried it into the water. But then theres the giant wall of ice or did you forget about that? Now Agatio and Karst couldve went with Menardi and Saturos but then wouldn't you think the game mighta pointed that out or say that they were "killed" in Sol Sanctum?

Or they couldve been in disguise like Felix and had escaped Sol Sanctum, avoided Isaac and co, never heard from Saturos and Menardi again, they found out that Isaac had killed them on Venus Lighthouse (how did Felix and Co hear aobut Sat. and Menardi's death, i frogot, more importantly how'd Karst and Agatio find out?)

I say they left Prox after getting tired of waiting for Saturos and Menardi. But that leaves the bloody giant wall o' ice to be dealt with....now if they destroyed it then why's it there when you visit prox?

I ran across an interestingFAQ over at GameFaqs saying that Agatio has his own ship. But I highly doubt that because if Alex traveled with Agatio and Karst and hes on MT. Aleph he must have gotten there somehow. I sure you can't just teleport anywhere in the world....although his teleports better then the one you get in the game.....maybe he teleported, maybe he sailed who knows for sure, *cough* designers at Camelot. *cough*

Ahem...
Remember the fact that the Mercury Lighthouse and Jupiter Lighthouse contributed to subzero temperatures in Prox?
Problem solved. Case closed.
Remember, they had to get Isaac's father and Felix's parents there somehow. Perhaps the giant sheet of ice was only formed after Mercury and Jupiter Lighthouses were lit. Remember that you can't even get to the wall of ice until then, and by then Prox is in the middle of a blizzard that they themselves said was even more fierce and cold than usual... and they live in the far north, where freezing temperatures are normal. That must've been some temperature change... probably enough to start the formation of the large sheet of ice. (Snow buildup [causing the ice to pack tightly and make a solid block] + water + subzero temperatures= giant iceberg)
And... I don't understand the first part with Karst and Agatio. I didn't even mention them in association with Sol Sanctum. Just recall that Saturos and Menardi said that they were the only two Proxians to survive. This implies that there were others with them, correct? I didn't say a word about Karst and Agatio being with them. Not in the least. However, in a association with them, I assume that word got out after Venus Lighthouse was lit; either that, or Alex told them after the party got the boat. After all, you don't see too much of him after that.

[Enoch]

Quote

That tiny stript of stolen land called Isreal only has their military so up-to-date because America and Britian pour so much money into it. If everyone were to just abandon it, Palestine would get its land back quickly enough. Nevermind the fact that a battle with Russia would get the US and UK involved, Isreal would hardly be a challenge for the Russians.

Besides, I was comparing Prox to random third-world countries. Isreal is a first-world country.

And I was comparing prox to Isreal. If America and GB were to abandon Isreal it wouldn't make a difference becuase we are the only things that are keeping Isreal from finnishing palastine off. We are purposely holding the people back. Isreal already has the money and power, we can't take that back.
Sorry, had to add that in!

Anyways, mabey Menardi found an old discarded boat, and happened to find a black orb as well. But then that means that in the golden age, Lemuria wasn't as secretive as they were in the present, and mabey everybody ended up receiving a nice psynergy boat.

Mabey those boats were everywhere and since lemuria decided to become secretive, they were the only ones who were able to preserve them.

Mabey! ;)

[Tachyon360]

Ah, but Isreal is surrounded by hostile Arab nations that are sypathetic to Palistine. They may have money and power, but they still don't stack up to hordes of oil-rich Arabs.

Anyhow, Lemuria originally flourished because of the flow of ideas between them and other cultures. They clearly weren't secretive at one point. As for your point about the boat, that's kinda what I was saying all along. I just think Lemuria built them and perhaps sold them. There's really little doubt in my mind that Menardi's ship was built and possibly sold by the Lemurians during the Golden Age.

Even if that ship wasn't originally from Prox (in the time frame of the game), someone else might've had it and S&M might have stolen it. Babi had a Lemurian ship, so it's not impossible.

Which reminds me: Yepp wasn't the only one to sail the Sea of Time without Psynergy. Babi and Lunpa did it too. And had the Babi Lighthouse been finished, I'm betting more people could have succeeded as well, because that lighthouse would help them keep their bearings. Irrelevant I guess, but interesting nonetheless.

[The Postman]

Yes, but remember, Babi was able to learn Psynergy, thus he might have been able to use it before but just didn't know it.

[Tachyon360]

Lunpa presumably also learned Psynergy. Not to mention, all the people that had Psynergy Stones fall on their heads gained powers as well, even though they could not use it prior to that.

[Enoch]

But everyone that got hit by psynergy stones, that happened when the mount erupted. Has it erupted in the past, meaning when Babi and Lunpa were still young?

[Tachyon360]

Nope. That was the only time it errupted. Not only that, but all the people hit got those abilities shortly after the incident. Babi and Lunpa were middle-aged when they went to Lemuria and they knew nothing of any sort of powers prior to that.

[The Postman]

It could possibly have been since Psyngergy wasn't locked away in Lemuria. So basically this could mean that anyone exposed to a form of psynergy can gain it's power.
Anyways, so about menardi's ship, I have no ideas anymore...

[Enoch]

But then wouldn't more people become adepts? everyone has been exposed to psynergy in some way. Only the un-important towns don't have psynergy and some of them have at least djinn in them.

[Tachyon360]

I think he meant Psynergy itself, not the effects caused by it. Like that guy that Piers used Frost on. He didn't gain Psyergy. Same with those people at Babi Lighthouse who got grilled medium-rare by Saturos and Menardi.

Briggs' son gained Psynergy when he got hit in the head by a Psynergy Stone (as many other people). Babi gained Psynergy after visiting Lemuria, where it flows freely. The people of Vale gain their Psynergy from all the Psynergy stone deposits around it. Garoh gets its Psyergy from the Psynergy Stone in Air's Rock. All of those people were exposed to Psynergy itself or something charged with Psynergy (Psynergy Stones of variouus sorts) and have managed to weild it as a result.

[Sir Galahad]

he is very probably that saturos robbed the boat of lemuria's harbor

[The Postman]

If that was the case the Lemurians would've probably talked about it.

[Enoch]

Quote

I think he meant Psynergy itself, not the effects caused by it. Like that guy that Piers used Frost on. He didn't gain Psyergy. Same with those people at Babi Lighthouse who got grilled medium-rare by Saturos and Menardi.

Briggs' son gained Psynergy when he got hit in the head by a Psynergy Stone (as many other people). Babi gained Psynergy after visiting Lemuria, where it flows freely. The people of Vale gain their Psynergy from all the Psynergy stone deposits around it. Garoh gets its Psyergy from the Psynergy Stone in Air's Rock. All of those people were exposed to Psynergy itself or something charged with Psynergy (Psynergy Stones of variouus sorts) and have managed to weild it as a result.

<_< I mean over a long period of time. And I wasn't seriouse. I'm aware that people get hurt by psynergy.

[Tachyon360]

Well, I suppose it also depends on how much Psynergy they get. Garoh only gets what's eroded by the wind from Air's Rock. Vale, on the other had, has more Psynery Stone than you can shake a stick at. Thus, Vale's people's powers are vastly greater in general.

Training it through practice and meditation obviously places a big role, but the initial strength clearly varies as you play the game. That could also serve to explain why most people in Prox can hardly wield Psynergy at all. Their source of Psynergy (whatever it is) is either very weak or very hard to reach. Yet their warriors are quite powerful, likely through training.

As for the Djinn, they only amplify existing Psynergy. If you don't have it, you can't use it.

[Enoch]

Quote

Training it through practice and meditation obviously places a big role, but the initial strength clearly varies as you play the game. That could also serve to explain why most people in Prox can hardly wield Psynergy at all. Their source of Psynergy (whatever it is) is either very weak or very hard to reach. Yet their warriors are quite powerful, likely through training.

As for the Djinn, they only amplify existing Psynergy. If you don't have it, you can't use it.

I would assume that they get their power from mars lighthouse.
Of coarse I could be wrong.

[Tachyon360]

Eh, that's what I think too. Same thing with the Mercury Clan. But there's always the possibility that those two clans' Psynergy is hereditary.

It could also be something entirely different. The games never said exactly where their power comes from.

[Teblor Tribe]

I say that it was the ship Menardi used to sail around in. How else would she get any where, fly? Alex uses it later in the game

[Tachyon360]

Meh, we'll never know for sure.

[Teblor Tribe]

exactlly it's just a ship that supposed to be there

[Enoch]

well, mabey being exposed to high amounts of alchemy, is kinda like radiation. It might give you psynergy, and change your DNA so that your children inherit the traits.

[el_Sethro]

easy: they made it. The people of Prox know how to make psynergy-powered ships, like the ones the Lemurians use. That's why Saturos and Menardi had a ship, and why everyone thinks that Piers's ship is Menardi's. also, Agatio and Karst had a ship too, and I assume that it was psynergy-powered as well. if two groups of Proxians both had ships, I think that it's obvious that they can either make the psynergy powered ships, or the ships are left from the golden age.

what I find curious is the disappearance of Isaac/Babi's ship, and Saturos and Menardi's ship. and you never see Agatio and Karst's ship, either....

[Enoch]

I don't think that Agatio and Karst had a boat. But then I still don't know how they travel.

[el_Sethro]

Enoch, on Oct 14 2004, 09:49 AM, said:

I don't think that Agatio and Karst had a boat. But then I still don't know how they travel.

Alex said that if he had managed to steal Piers's ship, he would not have met Agatio and Karst, so it was really a stroke of luck. I believe that this implies that they did have a ship. also, that is the most obvious way they would have of travelling.

[Linear]

el_Sethro, on Oct 14 2004, 11:06 AM, said:

Alex said that if he had managed to steal Piers's ship, he would not have met Agatio and Karst, so it was really a stroke of luck. I believe that this implies that they did have a ship. also, that is the most obvious way they would have of travelling.

@.@ Dont you mean "almost" managed?

[Enoch]

Either way, I guess it still makes sense. I just thought that they traveled with Alex the whole time. But Alex departed from them at jupiter lighthouse.

[el_Sethro]

Linear, on Oct 15 2004, 12:14 AM, said:

@.@ Dont you mean "almost" managed?

I said "if he had managed to steal Piers's ship", not that he did.

anyway, he parted ways with Agatio and Karst after Jupiter Lighthouse to go back to Vale/Mt. Aleph, while they travelled on to Mars Lighthouse. how he got back to Vale, I don't know.....he might have taken Isaac/Babi's ship, as Isaac just travelled with Felix and co. after then.....

[Fun Guy Fungi]

Actually, that Gamefaqs thing did make a good point that I forgot about. When you first meet Agatio in Champa, Karst makes a remark about how Agatio stayed on the boat when she was in Madra. Therefore, they must have had some sort of waterborne vehicle.

[Enoch]

Sure, and when jupiter lighthouse came, Alex warped to Vale. No boat, because Agatio and Karst owned the boat.

[eternaldeath09]

i think that alex might only be able to warp in a dungeon and not world map
becase the only times you see him warp in both the games is in Sol Santum, Mercury LH aerie, JL, and VL

he couldve swam :P i mean he IS a water adept....
but seriously he mightve pirated a boat or warped
damn plot holes.......

[Linear]

:blink: It's almost like Alex can teleport anywhere. Can he teleport in something that not suppose to be teleported in? -_-

[Enoch]

Well, mabey that's precisely what Warp does. I think that the reason why we only see him warp within dungeons is because that's the only place where he may need to. What reason would he have to warp within any town and we hardly ever see anyone on the outer world map, except the theives and the gladiators. I think <_< !

[kandy man]

I thought that Babi stole a ship and the drops of the water thingie and then parked it at that spot. <_<

[eternaldeath09]

well he stole a ship but he didnt park it there

that was saturos ship or at least we so think it is according to jenna

might be babi's ship....
cuz in GS1 Iodem said that mightve been babi's ship
and if it is then it all makes sence....i think.......

and i guess he could warp anywhere but then he coulda just warped to the top of Mt aleph and warp when mt alpeh was being ingested by the earth
hehe.....ingested i like that word......not sure if im using it correctly but its a cool word

[Enoch]

Babi didn't steal the ship from S and m. He had his ship long before.

[kandy man]

But if you you read the game Piers says that Babis name is not loved at his home.

[Tachyon360]

You just proved Enoch's point and contradicted yourself. Babi stole from Lemuria, so they hate him for it. Had he stolen the ship from S&M, Piers wouldn't say anything about Babi.

[Linear]

kandy man, on Oct 22 2004, 02:23 PM, said:

But if you you read the game Piers says that Babis name is not loved at his home.

True, Piers said that because Babi took the last draught...

[Tachyon360]

The draught and a ship.

[Luna's Assasian]

Insult to injury... Ouch. Babi deserved to die.

[Enoch]

I feel the same way. Manly because he tried to cheat old age, and death. He should have died long ago.