[Elliott]

Aight, rather than people posting about religion in other topics, which generally leadds to fighting, I think it's best for the forums to contain ALL religious discussion and debate in one (that's 1, single) topic, so feel free to debate and discuss religions of all shapes and sizes in THIS topic. Any sign of flaming, mocking, or unneeded evangalism, this topic will be closed, and offenders warned, keep posts well structured OK?

Nick or Max feelf ree to do with this what you will, if any other mod touches it I will simply re-create it ok? If this doesn't take off, big deal, worth a shot, and it's doing no harm if people STICK TO THE TOPIC RULES. (that needed capitalisation).

I'll kick this off.

I was once a Chrsitian, but due to my school, my peers, and other Christians, I began to question it, question God's existance, and question faith in general. After a few months, I decided to give up my faith completely, and I have enjoyed my life more since that time. I'm not a Satanist (though I love black metal), in fact, I don't like religion at all, I feel it is a waste of precious time, money, and I don't belive IN what i can't see.

Discuss.

[lifeform287]

Well, I knew someone was gonna make this sooner or later. It's a good thing you made it.

Same goes for me. I can't see it, I don't believe it. I'm not anything as far as I know. Then again...I don't know much about myself.

[Neo]

I'm an Atheist myself, together with 85% with the rest of my class. the strange thing is, I'm on a christian school, we have two hours of religion in a week, and almost every teacher on our school believes in God. however, from the people who I know from my school -- which are quite a lot -- almost none of them don't believe, or don't really care. I don't flame on God, or say stupid things towards him or the religion, I just don't really... do anything about it. I tried becoming religious many times in my life, but how much I tried, it never worked. an important fact for my Atheisme is that everybody knows that Dinosaurs lived millions of years before the human did. how can God have created things in 7 days then (Not a flaming sentence)?

[Elliott]

Apparantly the 7 days, as with a lot of the bible, is metaphorical, so the 7 days could have been 7 billion years or something like that. My dad is a keen Christian so I pick up stuff like that from time to time.

[Mathak Kraven]

I don't hate religion, nor do I support it, religion is more like an easy answer to big questions, also a resort to place most our hopes upon. I do know that religion kept science back for a few hundred years, but that can be blamed on religious communities. I think anyone who want to follow his/her religion may, but there is no sense in placing a hierarchy up there controlling it (like the Vatican).

What do you think about that?

Also I'm a non-believer.

[Elliott]

I agree. Religion is fine by me as long as it is practiced in private, or in just a church. The thing I hate most is when people of ANY religion try and suggest it to me, or force it upon me. As I'm at a Christian school I get this a lot. Keep it to yourself people, no point forcing it upon others, let them find it themselves. More often than not people are put off religion to to people trying to convert them.

[Enoch]

Agatio, on Jun 8 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

I agree. Religion is fine by me as long as it is practiced in private, or in just a church. The thing I hate most is when people of ANY religion try and suggest it to me, or force it upon me. As I'm at a Christian school I get this a lot. Keep it to yourself people, no point forcing it upon others, let them find it themselves. More often than not people are put off religion to to people trying to convert them.

Or in the topic you just created, right?

Well yeah! God is cool with me. Seeing as I'm the first theistic person to post in this topic I might as well discuss God. A day in heaven is equal to 1000 years on earth. I forgot exactly where I pulled that fact from, but I do remember it being a reliable source. But some may not agree with that fact. In which case I may be wrong.

But that's simply what I heard.

[Mathak Kraven]

Then I wouldn't want to go to heaven, right, sleeping for 1000 years with no food.

But I agree with Agatio, I so despice those Jehovah's witnessess, trying to convert me when I'm at my home watching TV or playing a game, telling me whatever I was doing was done by god. No way dude.

[Elliott]

Quote

A day in heaven is equal to 1000 years on earth. I forgot exactly where I pulled that fact from, but I do remember it being a reliable source.

Which brings us to the bible. A book, just a book. I think the Christians merely made this up as a means of gathering followers. I doubt the a super-being told someone, who apparantly lived 1000 years, to write a bunch of laws, and about the creation of the earth. This seems so completely far-fetched for me. Another factor of me giving up my faith.

[Neo]

The bible was written by very much people who believed in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
that brings me to another religious subject:
the Christian religion is stated as a monotheisme, but the Moslems say it isn't. in their book, Jesus is also a character, but he is mentioned as a profet, not God's son. they say the Christian religion isn't a monotheisme, because we believe in three "Gods". first of all we believe in The God, the creator. second we believe in his son, Jesus Christ. and last, we believe in the Holy spirit. I think the Moslems have a point with that.

[Venus_Man1]

Well, I am atheist. Or however you spell it. I think the bible can be pretty cool, though. You know, just cool. So, I'm thinking of reading it.

[Mathak Kraven]

No but it's filled with litterly loads off stuff (I was plaiing on using a another word) that doesn't quite fit , also I heard that the bible contradicts itself.

[Izar]

I apprciate ya'll not tuning this into a flaming topic, as before.

Believe it or not, I was almost an athiest. I was into things I shouldn't have been in. I believed in GOD and Jesus, but I never really cared too much, until a fateful miracle in the 8th grade, not too long before I came here. I them became incredibly devout into the Pentecostal denomination. I then became less devout, but still quit cussing. I left the church as soon as my brother died, but I still go occasionally. You can call me a Rogue Christian, mainly becaus I am of no denomination anymore. That's basically Why I listen to mostly Christian music. You would never know it by how I dress, but I'm pretty much the most Chrsitian dude ya'll will find. I dress in Punk to Goth clothes at times.

The Bible does not "Contridict" it's self. The New Testimante is set in 4 different view points, Mathew, Mark, luke, and John. The rest speak of ministies, end times, and such. The Old testiment is basically the Jewish Torah along with some other texts.

Quote

The bible was written by very much people who believed in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
that brings me to another religious subject:
the Christian religion is stated as a monotheisme, but the Moslems say it isn't. in their book, Jesus is also a character, but he is mentioned as a profet, not God's son. they say the Christian religion isn't a monotheisme, because we believe in three "Gods". first of all we believe in The God, the creator. second we believe in his son, Jesus Christ. and last, we believe in the Holy spirit. I think the Moslems have a point with that.

Your Christian now? :) Neato

They have a point, but the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Holy Spirit) is called the "Trinity" I used to be Oneness, meaning I just believed that they were Titles of God(Yaweh) but then I came to my other stage in life. The Trinity is the doctrine that state that GOD has three FORMS, not three entities. We are monotheistic. Remember, Jesus is GOD. His Manifestation(Son)

http://www.fellowshiptractleague.org/tracts/images/103.jpg

To answer your Question, Agatio, How did GOD create the world in 7 days, it's probably not days as we call it, but then again, It's GOD, the most powerful being in the universe, how could he not?

EDIT: To answer anyone's question, if they may post it, The Definition of a Christian is someone who believes in GOD and Jesus and actually worships and TRUELY beleive He is Real, not just someone who believes in them.

Quote

Which brings us to the bible. A book, just a book. I think the Christians merely made this up as a means of gathering followers. I doubt the a super-being told someone, who apparantly lived 1000 years, to write a bunch of laws, and about the creation of the earth. This seems so completely far-fetched for me. Another factor of me giving up my faith.

But you forget, it was First Jewish. The Bible was collected together over THOUSANDS of years, and most Christians and jews didn't even have the bible, infact some only had one book of the bible. The Faith is what brought us as Chrsitians/Messianic Jews.

[Neo]

Izar said:

Your Christian now? :)  Neato

They have a point, but the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Holy Spirit) is called the "Trinity" I used to be Oneness, meaning I just believed that they were Titles of God(Yaweh) but then I came to my other stage in life. The Trinity is the doctrine that state that GOD has three FORMS, not three entities. We are monotheistic. Remember, Jesus is GOD. His Manifestation(Son)

with "we" I mean the western civilasation, not me in particular.
but saying Jesus is God is a bit to much to say IMO. indeed, he is from the flash of God, but still, he is different. I heard some people saying the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God himself, which can also be true. but there are some people who worship (to say it a little rude) every single one of them, and not all as One God.

[Eugine]

1. For you to experience God you must ask him and TRUELY believe in his existance. When you have GOD in you, you will just feel his presense.

YEP, THAT'S IT. I'm a Christian.

[Elliott]

It's not going to turn into a flaming topic, did anyone bother to read the first post?

I see Christianity as a flawed religion. Mainly because the bible says be godly, follow the ten commandments etc. But everyday I will see "Christians" stealing, hurting people, insulting people. And the common excuse is "everyone makes mistakes, I'm forgiven". And they keep doing it.

It's a religion entirely based on faith, and myths. I've seen NO evidence whatsoever to support any of this. And what's with taking 10% of my money? I'd rather keep it thank you very much, not give it to someone who will just convert more people into that religion.

And every single Christian, despite what they say, is judgemental. They are always nicer to each other, than they are to "unsaved" people. So much for a tolerant religion.

[Andross]

Jews > all religions :D
Technically it's true, because Judaism was the first monotheistic relgion AND caused the creation of Christianity, and later, Islam. YES! XD

I mostly like being a reform, or "liberal" Jew because it's a lot more lax than a lot of other religions. I think it's just a lot more "free" if you catch my drift. Plus, we don't blow ourselves up and try to convert people, lol ^_^ ;) ;) :)

[Echo_djinn]

I am just a plain christian. The word "christian" just bugs the heck out of me since so many people use that word but it can stand for so many different terms. What does it really mean to be a true "christian"?

[Izar]

Andross, Judiasm didn't "cause" Chrsitianity or Islam, it set the plates, it's what we derived from. Jesus caused Chrsitianity, and Muhamed(sp?) did the same for Islam. Infact, there are Messianic jews, people who keep all jewish tradition, but Believe in Jesus sa the messiah, and Messianic Islams, who believe the same as muslims, yet believe in Christ as the Son of God, or Allah.

Neo_Genesis, on Jun 8 2005, 03:34 PM, said:

Izar said:

Your Christian now? ^_^  Neato

They have a point, but the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Holy Spirit) is called the "Trinity" I used to be Oneness, meaning I just believed that they were Titles of God(Yaweh) but then I came to my other stage in life. The Trinity is the doctrine that state that GOD has three FORMS, not three entities. We are monotheistic. Remember, Jesus is GOD. His Manifestation(Son)

with "we" I mean the western civilasation, not me in particular.
but saying Jesus is God is a bit to much to say IMO. indeed, he is from the flash of God, but still, he is different. I heard some people saying the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God himself, which can also be true. but there are some people who worship (to say it a little rude) every single one of them, and not all as One God.

You lost me... They are cultists in Christianity. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, God is the Divine being, Jesus is the Flesh.

To be a true Christian, Echo? The Christian faith has existed since the time that Jesus Christ was on earth, before, we were all Jews. When Jesus came, we were called "Messianic Jews" or "The Way" and evetually "Christians. Followers of Jesus have had different understandings about many things, but all true Christians agree that Jesus Christ is a revelation of God in the flesh. We believe that God came to earth to bring us back into a relationship with Him, through a Fleh, the Flesh was Jesus. Some believe this Reltionship was lst with Adam and Eve, other, through time. But we all agree that Jeesus is GOD, the Son of God, The Son of Man. The Christian faith is about faith in the resurrected Jesus.

To put it in different terms, there is NO TRUE CHURCH. All have something different to believe, so all are different, NONE CAN BE EXACT.

I found a neat timeline of Christianity's Sects. Here they are.

1st century CE - There were at least three distinct divisions within the Christian movement: the Jewish Christians (led by Jesus' brother James, with Jesus' disciples, and their followers), Pauline Christians (followers of Paul the Apostle) and Gnostic Christians (people who believed that salvation came through secret knowledge). Contrary to popular belief, they did not all dislike each other. Gnostic maybe, but the other two were very close.

4th century CE - The Roman Emperor Theodosian issued a series of decrees to "suppress all rival religions, order the closing of the temples, and impose fines, confiscation, imprisonment or death upon any who cling to the older [Pagan] religions." 2
The church used the power of the state to begin programs to oppress, exile or exterminate both Pagans and Gnostic Christians. This was pretty much sad.

6th century CE - Only Pauline Christianity had survived in the Mediterranean area, Npw they changed into a more politcal Church, The Catholic Church. Remember that they followed and changed prevous doctrines. Gnostic Christianity(believed to be The kind Leonardo DiVinci was) had been suppressed; Jewish Christianity had died out(sadly). There were independent Christian groups in Egypt, India and elsewhere which were not part of Catholicism.

1054 CE - The Catholic Church was not the only living Church by this time. The Eastern Orthodox Faith was the other half of the Byzyntine Empire(what was left of the Romans)

1517 CE - Martin Luther triggered the Protestant Reformation, believing that Money did not buy your way into heaven. He also denounced Purgatory. he formed the Lutheran Church, out of that came th Methodists and such.

16th century to the present time: Dozens of denominations, thousands of individual faith groups.

Here's a few different Groups.

Roman Catholic - They believe that Paul founded their Church. They pray not only to GOD, but to Mary and the Saints. They believe Mary never had children after Jesus. Originally tought that the Pope made no errors. But after Vatican II, they relaised others should not be prosecuted. There are 242 sects of the Catholic faith.

Independent - Protestant, Those that call themselves "Just Chistians." Most believe that the Bible is the whole truth, and no Denomination can tell them otherwise. They stick to their own beliefs, mainly mixing those of other denominations.

Baptist - Protestants that belief in the power of submersion as promised by GOD. They belief in a very devout way of interpreting the Bible. Most read the NKJV version of the Bible. Alot of Baptists search for Historical ways of interpreting the faith as well.

Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association(CPCA) - The recognized official Catholic Church established by the Communist government of the Peoples Republic of China. Critics of the CPCA argue that the main purpose of the CPCA is to establish state control over Catholicism in China. Members are subject to official harassment, and some have been jailed. There are about 4 million members of the CPA, and 12 million members of the authentic ("underground") Catholic Church. The CPCA Regognizes Taiwan as the Republic of China, Not Communist China. That is why China told the Vatican when the Pope died that he would "officially" end harassment of Catholics, ONLY if he recognized Communist China as the People's Republic.

Lutheran - A very popular form of Chistianity. It is close to Catholicism. They believe that the Bible is the final authority for all choices. They believe Humans are a unique speicies. Lutherans believe that all people live in a condition which is the result of misused freedom. This is a very popular form of Christianity is New Zealand and Australia as well as the US.

Methodist - The United Methodist Church believes that you should achive higher faith through different methods, hence the name. They believe that God will comfort, guide, and forgive every person, no matter who they are or what they've done, serving others and Christian faith go hand in hand, they find peace with God and spiritual fulfillment both in solitary moments of reflection and in a community of faith. They are probably the most open-minded of all groups, believing that they are not the only ones right.

Pentecostal - Very Simliar to Methodists. The Pentecostal Church is a Protestant Christian denomination which grew out of the "holiness movement" which swept across various Christian communities early in the 20th century. There are two basic things which characterize Pentecostal churches and differentiate them from other Protestant groups: the first is the belief in a "Baptism of the Spirit" and the second is a belief in resultant charismata ("Gifts of the Spirit," like speaking in tongues). However, basic aspects of Pentecostal services could be found even earlier, for example a prayer service in 1831 in London, England, resulted in members speaking in tongues and prophesizing. It is important to remember that Pentecostal beliefs did not simply spring up out of nowhere - instead, they developed out of the Holiness movement which was, in turn, a group which developed out of traditional Methodism. Pentecostal churches, however, move beyond this because they rely not simply upon the Bible, but also upon direct and personal spiritual revelations which can not only supplement the teachings of the Bible, but which can even replace them. It is no surprise that Pentecostals are often kept at arm's length by the leaders and members of many traditional Protestant churches, both liberal and fundamentalist. These churches have play and dramatizations. The preachers also love jokes. ;) Major Pentecostal churches include: the Assemblies of God, the United Pentecostal Church International(seen as cultists by many), the Association of Vineyard Churches, Church of God in Christ, and the Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship. The Assemblies of God is currently the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world while the Church of God is both the oldest Pentecostal denomination and the largest black Pentecostal group in the world. Populary in Aberta, Canada as well as the US.

Christianity also has some, well, Cults. I used to be Oneness, which was what some Chistians call Cultists. I'm not saying you are if you are one of these, i'm just saying it's where Everyone else puts you(and sometimes me).

Different list of Christian "Cults"

Oneness Pentecostal(United Pentecostal) - Most pentecostals believe that this is NOT part of thier Church. The believe in the Oneness Doctrine, and denounce the Trinity. I was once oneness, it's not much different from other churches. The members are nice and they believe jsut about everything as Regular Pentecostals do.

Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(Mormon) - I have to write this long, because they use two books. Some Christians call them Christians "without Christ." They believe Jesus Christ is god as much as you and I are god. No offence, but this saddnes me. The Bible? It has to agreewith the Book of mormon or else it's not right. In fact, Smith introduced 125 new verses only in the New Testament, and changed 1,475 verses in the Bible. Only the Mormons use "their Bible", no other Christian does... in fact, no other Christian denomination considers the Mormons as Christians, though they have the name of "Jesus Christ" as the main title of their Church. They believe Jesus and the Devil are brothers, and that very statement makes me cringe writing it. Also, the believe that if we are REALLY good, and we die, we become gods. Also, They believe in "Polygamy", which is forbidden in the "Book of Mormon" However, Smith, in his 132 revelation was ordered by God to have polygamy, as in the life of Solomon: So, Smith had 27 wives officially, and 60 unofficially, and the second great leader, Brigham Young, had 25 wives with 56 children, and proclaimed, "he who rejects the doctrine of polygamy shall be condemned"... and "the only men who become gods are those who enter polygamy"... however, a third "little Pope", Fielding, abolished officially polygamy in 1904. The Church as VERY Devout members, and very nice, kind-hearted, and probably the best cooks. ^_^ Seriously.

Here's what the Book of Mormon States:

The Book relates a thousand-year history of a lost tribe of Israelites who left Palestine and came to America to become the ancestors of the Native Americans(who were paganistic). The leader of the lost tribe was Lehi, who had two sons: Laman and Nephi. They lived in pease and love, until the Lamanites became bad people, who fought and annihilated the Nephites near Palmyra, N.Y. in 428 AC But, before his demise, Mormon, the Nephite leader, wrote and buried his Book, including the appearance of Christ in America, after his resurrection, instituting the ordinances of baptism, communion, and priesthood. How they know about Christ if the were a lost tribe of Jews before Christ is beyond me. Some also interpreted the coming of Christ many times. There is also an off-shoot of the Mormon church that believes they are the true mormon church, ask Enoch, I think he's the one who told us about it. Blacks, Smith taught, were Cain's decendents and therefore cursed... they were barred from the priesthood until Spencer Kimball received a "revelation" abrogating this injunction. Kimball died in 1985, and was succeeded as President by Ezra Taft Benson. This now ceases to exist.

Jehovah's Witnesses - The Witnesses are the children of the Adventists, and as the Adventists, they have officially announced the Second Coming of Christ and the Armageddon for 6 dates: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, and 1975. The Witnesses are told to work hard "now", because from that Day, the 144,000 "anointed ones" since 1914 will live for ever as kings and priests in heaven. The Holy Trinity is seen as a demonic doctrine to them, they deny the physical resurrection of Christ, and there is not eternal Hell, they believe that Jesus was not God. I don't understand this faith very much, so, Someone else take it from here.

Neo-Gnosticism - They believe that God is a distant figure or something like that. The believe MOST of the Bible is right, not ALL of it. They denouce Creationism and believe that evolution took place under God's command. Some believe there is no heaven or hell, some other believe there is heaven, no hell, and some believe that there is heaven and hell. There is no set church for them, they jsut believe this. That's all i know about them

I'm pooped out. I can't type anymore, can't copy and paste... I'm goin' to bed...

LONG POST!

[Elliott]

Hands up who read that?

Izar, you're a christian, yet you use CE (common era), rather than AD (after death). What's with that?

[Enoch]

Izar, on Jun 9 2005, 12:48 AM, said:

Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(Mormon) - I have to write this long, because they use two books. Some Christians call them Christians "without Christ." They believe Jesus Christ is god as much as you and I are god. No offence, but this saddnes me. The Bible? It has to agreewith the Book of mormon or else it's not right. In fact, Smith introduced 125 new verses only in the New Testament, and changed 1,475 verses in the Bible. Only the Mormons use "their Bible", no other Christian does... in fact, no other Christian denomination considers the Mormons as Christians, though they have the name of "Jesus Christ" as the main title of their Church. They believe Jesus and the Devil are brothers, and that very statement makes me cringe writing it. Also, the believe that if we are REALLY good, and we die, we become gods. Also, They believe in "Polygamy", which is forbidden in the "Book of Mormon" However, Smith, in his 132 revelation was ordered by God to have polygamy, as in the life of Solomon: So, Smith had 27 wives officially, and 60 unofficially, and the second great leader, Brigham Young, had 25 wives with 56 children, and proclaimed, "he who rejects the doctrine of polygamy shall be condemned"... and "the only men who become gods are those who enter polygamy"... however, a third "little Pope", Fielding, abolished officially polygamy in 1904. The Church as VERY Devout members, and very nice, kind-hearted, and probably the best cooks.  ^_^ Seriously.

Here's what the Book of Mormon States:

The Book relates a thousand-year history of a lost tribe of Israelites who left Palestine and came to America to become the ancestors of the Native Americans(who were paganistic). The leader of the lost tribe was Lehi, who had two sons: Laman and Nephi. They lived in pease and love, until the Lamanites became bad people, who fought and annihilated the Nephites near Palmyra, N.Y. in 428 AC But, before his demise, Mormon, the Nephite leader, wrote and buried his Book, including the appearance of Christ in America, after his resurrection, instituting the ordinances of baptism, communion, and priesthood. How they know about Christ if the were a lost tribe of Jews before Christ is beyond me. Some also interpreted the coming of Christ many times. There is also an off-shoot of the Mormon church that believes they are the true mormon church, ask Enoch, I think he's the one who told us about it. Blacks, Smith taught, were Cain's decendents and therefore cursed... they were barred from the priesthood until Spencer Kimball received a "revelation" abrogating this injunction. Kimball died in 1985, and was succeeded as President by Ezra Taft Benson. This now ceases to exist.

LONG POST!

I don't know which of this to correct first. If I were to let this topic alone, then my own church would kick me in the balls.

First, the verses that Joseph smith changed weren't actualy the verses themselves. He put translations and decipherings in the back of the bible and made reference to them, as to where if one were to come across a selection that needed further confermation, you could just look in the back. Except that Joseph never made any actual changes to the King James Bible.

Secondly, several other christians beliefs consider LDS as christians, though the majority don't there are a select few. And we don't beleive that the devil and jesus are brothers, we beleive that all children of god are brothers and sisters because god created both Satan, and Christ, and you, and me. Though Satan was the black sheep as you may imagine.

Polygamy. Let me explain that to you. Back then when the LDS church was moving to Utah, they encountered several mobs that killed several of the men of the church of that time. Women where left on their own. Back then, it was custom and law that women weren't allowed to have possesion of anything. And that they couldn't care for themselves, seeing as they couldn't have property, according to american law. So the men of the church sorta had to take on more wives simply to be able to help the women of the church to get to Utah. That was the only reson why we had polygamy, and it's the exact reason why absolutely no true mormons practice it today. And any that claim they are, and do practice polygamy still, they would most curtainly be ex-comunicated, if found out.

Smith. He never had multiple wives. He was among the majority that didn't practice polygamy. So wherever you herd that, it was false doctrine. Brigham young had few wives, but mind you that was only while he wasn't prophet.

Lehi didn't have two sons, but four sons. Lamen, Lemual, Sam, and Nephi.

And joseph smith didn't teach anything about blacks being descendents of cain, but more or less some beleive that simply out of speculation. Not all of them are mormon either. Black people are able to have the preisthood.

Phew that was a mouthful. Though I do thank you on the compliment about us being nice. And I do know some mormons that aren't good cooks, though they are few. ;)

PS; the break-off LDS church doesn't even beleive the same things as us. They probobly aren't even considered as true mormons. And the morons who tried to tell when the second coming will appear, well, enough said. Their not very good mormons. At least in my opinion. There is absolutely no way of telling when christ will appear, except by going by what revelations said, and that's to indirect.

[Andross]

Izar, on Jun 9 2005, 05:48 AM, said:

Andross, Judiasm didn't "cause" Chrsitianity or Islam, it set the plates, it's what we derived from. Jesus caused Chrsitianity, and Muhamed(sp?) did the same for Islam. Infact, there are Messianic jews, people who keep all jewish tradition, but Believe in Jesus sa the messiah, and Messianic Islams, who believe the same as muslims, yet believe in Christ as the Son of God, or Allah.

You know what I meant, so don't turn it into something I meant with all seriousness (there are 5 winks for a reason *rolls eyes*)

[Enoch]

I'm sure that mostly everybody knew what you ment, Andross. I don't think you need to worry much about that. Though it was a rather odd way of putting it. I mean the second paragraph in that post.

[Izar]

Agatio, on Jun 9 2005, 01:09 AM, said:

Hands up who read that?

Izar, you're a christian, yet you use CE (common era), rather than AD (after death). What's with that?

AD doesnt mean After Death, it's actually a latin term. And CE is the same as AD. I use both. The guy who came up with AD was an odd one, reasons: Jesus was born 4 B.C, that's not 4 years before Christ, and how did he die 4 years after he was born? Bah, AD, CE doesn't make a differece. BCE and CE, doesn't make a diffeerence as well.

Actually, i didn't know what you meant by that andross.

Thanks for clearing that up, Enoch. I heard Joseph Smith had many wives from the history of him. Thanks, Now I have a clear conscience. ^_^

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Jun 10 2005, 04:43 AM, said:

AD doesnt mean After Death, it's actually a latin term. And CE is the same as AD. I use both. The guy who came up with AD was an odd one, reasons: Jesus was born 4 B.C, that's not 4 years before Christ, and how did he die 4 years after he was born? Bah, AD, CE doesn't make a differece. BCE and CE, doesn't make a diffeerence as well.

Actually, i didn't know what you meant by that andross.

Thanks for clearing that up, Enoch. I heard Joseph Smith had many wives from the history of him. Thanks, Now I have a clear conscience.  ^_^

There is a lot of flase doctrine on the internet especcially about LDS. You should really be careful what you read or you're going to be spreading rumours that could damage the chruchs reputation.

[Izar]

watch, on Jun 9 2005, 05:04 PM, said:

There is a lot of flase doctrine on the internet especcially about LDS. You should really be careful what you read or you're going to be spreading rumours that could damage the chruchs reputation.

No, it wasn't on the Internet, it was A book or something, i forget, it was a while ago.

[Enoch]

Izar, on Jun 9 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

No, it wasn't on the Internet, it was A book or something, i forget, it was a while ago.

It's sad! There is quite a bit of flammingly false doctring in some books to. I read a book where it talked about a seperate account of Joseph Smith, where it talked about him having 12 wives. ( wich is not true)

The sad thing is that it also said that Joseph's father's name was Nephi. Wich is very false, because Joseph's father's name was actualy Joseph Smith Sr, father of Joseph Smith Jr, the prophet.

So you can see where misconceptions acan be plentiful.

[Illidan]

(I'm just going to quote my LJ on this one)

“Not one ideology has the answer. We pick and choose what is appropriate.”

Within my mind this statement is both underestimated and overestimated. The concept of postmodernism is genuinely complex to my understanding. Our world is consciously and unconsciously constructed by text and relations between texts. There are no essential truths. Our aim as a realist is to reflect reality – But what truth do we know about reality? How well can we construct a mimetic version? What is our real condition? People misconceive its meaning, and become a lesser extent of what they call a “realist”.

Our capabilities to fully understand anything is flawed. It is human nature to conceal the truth, and the truth within the truth. We question the ideological construction to which we unsettle the responder. Our objective as theorists is to convey what we think is logical, which we hope will uncover our truth:

My personal feeling is that the concept of “God” has no fixation, no plan, no order. The meaning of life is what you make of it. Your own reward is your own satisfaction, and if God has any sort of plan, it’ll be within us to find it through our feelings. The concept of our God is our own free will. But to think way beyond our reach is juvenile, and this is partially why I do not follow any fixed religion. It is in my heart to become as good and self righteous as I can achieve to be, and to leave a good impression to our existence and to the world. If that does not qualify as to whether I'm worthy enough for our "omnipotent's satisfaction", then it’ll satisfy me as my own reward, for we live for ourselves, and to live for others is our extent choice. The choice to live for others is for our self satisfaction.

“What lies between text is a number of other texts, not an essential truth.”

[Izar]

The concept of My God is that his Supreme knowledge cannot be understood within our own minds. Our free will works along with His predestination.

The latest surveys tell us that over 90% of people in the world today believe in the existence of God or some higher power. The responsibility is placed on those who believe God does exist to somehow prove that He really does exist. To me, I think it should be the other way around. God's existance cannot really be proven or disproved.

FROM GOTQUESTIONS.ORG:

Quote

This argument basically says that since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God – there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.  A second is the teleological argument.  The teleological argument is that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a Divine designer.  For example, if earth were even a few hundred miles closer or further away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does.  If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die.  The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10[to the 243 power] (that is a 10 followed by 243 0’s).  A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument.  Every effect must have a cause.  This universe and everything in it is an effect.  There must be something that caused everything to come into existence.  Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence.  That “un-caused” something is God.  A fourth argument is known as the moral argument.  Every culture throughout history has had some form of law.  Everyone has a sense of right and wrong.  Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected.  Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?

Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and instead believe a lie.  Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen.”  The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God, “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.”  The true reason is because once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from God (Romans 3:23; 6:23).  If God exists, then we are accountable for our actions to Him.  If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us.  I believe that is why evolution is so strongly clung to by many in our society - to give people an alternative to believing in a Creator God.  God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists.  The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

Allow me one last argument for God’s existence.  How do I know God exists?  I know God exists because I speak to Him every day.  I do not audibly hear Him speaking back to me, but I sense His presence, I feel His leading, I know His love, I desire His grace.  Things have occurred in my life that have no other possible explanation other than God.  God has so miraculously saved me and changed my life that I cannot help but to acknowledge and praise His existence.  None of these arguments in and of themselves can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is so plainly clear.  In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6).  Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark, it is safe step into a well-lit room where 90% of people are already standing.

I just love that quote in bold.

[Enoch]

But what if something was curtain? Now I'm sorta going out on a limb.

But there are people who say that they actualy speek for God. And why not? Who is anyone to question that. We have faith, but most people's faith is wayword only by the feelings that they get when active in their faith, and by the things they do. I know that I have felt a curtain preasence in my church, whenever I attend it regularly. And I'm sure the same goes for mostly all avidly attending church worshipers.

In my opinion, as long as you be the best person that you can be, then you're all right.

Jailed preacher man from The Count of Monte Cristo, on bitd, said:

It dousn't matter wether you beleive in god. He believes in you.

[Izar]

I think some can speak for God. THere's a verse that says the Children will Prophesi. I have it somewhere...

Ha, I like this next verse:

Rev 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

[Enoch]

I think that many can speak for god. In more then one way. For example:

I'm a christian but I think that Ghandi spoke for god on several occasions. I feel that he deffinitaly carried out gods will.

All of our mormon missionaries speak for god, in my opinion.

Izar isn't even mormon, but I beleive that he speaks for god, even as we speak.

[Izar]

So you think most Non-Mormons can not speak for God? ^_^

Well, Gandi was Hindu, he believed in many gods, but some speculate that he changed. I'm not sure on that.

[Enoch]

Izar, on Jun 10 2005, 11:22 AM, said:

So you think most Non-Mormons can not speak for God?  ^_^

Well, Gandi was Hindu, he believed in many GODs, but some speculate that he changed. I'm not sure on that.

No if you read my post, I state quite the obviouse/opposite. Ghandi did speak for god. And by speaking for god, I mean that a person states his ideals.
For example peace, truth, and charity, etc, etc, etc.

Ghandi was actualy both Monotheistic and polytheistic. But I feel that he was somewhat inspired. btw; this sin't mormon doctrine I'm stating. This is simply my thoughts on the subject.

[Izar]

You can't be Monotheistic and Ploytheistic. You either beleive in one god, many gods, or no god.

Ah, peace and truth, ok.

Found something interesting. Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God or to worship him. I Also found that in Isaiah 14:12-14, Lucifer was saying that he would try to over throw God.

[Enoch]

Ghandi stated that he was apart of both religions. Hindu and Buddhist. Or was it Islam? All I know is from what I saw in the movie Ghandi.

Izar, on Jun 10 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

I think some can speak for God. THere's a verse that says the Children will Prophesi. I have it somewhere...

Ha, I like this next verse:

Rev 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Tell me these are just random things that you are coming across in the bible or are you trying to make a point?

[Izar]

He was Hindu and Buddist. Buddism doesn't specifically state that Buddha was a god, some Buddists think so, but others go along with other religions as well. And if you are Hindu and Buddhist, that's Polytheistic. He went with Buddist beliefs but also went with the traditions and polytheism of the Hindu religion.

[Enoch]

Right thanks for clearing that up for me! But all the same, I still beleive that Ghandi was somewhat inspired by god.

[Izar]

Somewhat, maybe. He wanted piece and such. It's like God said on Bruce Almighty "I did the same thing to Ghandi and he didn't eat for three weeks." Maybe he became monotheistic when he died, who knows.

[Enoch]

That's possible, but unlikely in my opinion. I would think that god would want peice for ghandi in his last moments on earth.

[Izar]

Well, it's kinda like this:

2 Corinthians 6:14 declares, “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” Most believers apply this verse to marriage only. It definitely applies to marriage, but it also applies to much more than just marriage. Marriage isn’t even mentioned in the surrounding verses of 2 Corinthians 6:14. The passage goes on to say, “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you” (2Cor 6:15-17).

Again, that's from gotquestions.org

[Elliott]

Just a note, good luck to any Christian using the bible as a means of converting non-christians. Most, if not all, atheists belive the bible is made up, so It's logical that using the bible, as a way of making atheists belive the bible, is a little silly.

[Izar]

That's kinda common sense, we know. We were just conversing over our beliefs. But most historians believe the bible is very historic.

[Echo_djinn]

Speaking to Agatio:
Who says people who use the bible are trying to convert other people? It's just a way to communicate with other people about their religion, the reason why they believe in it and other messages they want to pass down to you. As long as you hear their message thats all that really matters. People who switch over from one religion to another one usually do it themselves. It's up to them if they believe it's the right religion for them to go into. You don't really hear people being forced to going a religion even though they don't want to join.

[Elliott]

You'd be surprised how many Christians I have seen attempt to minister to people who really, really don't want to hear it. Especially at a Christian school, where it's mentioned every second sentence.

[Enoch]

I was trying to convert people, but it wasn't so much of a consience effort. I always try to convert people, and Izar I'm sure, is constantly trying to convert others.

Though some beleive that by using the bible to convert, that mabey people could be touched by the spirit of god when reading it. And many do.

[My Best Wishes]

Just a sidenote.

@Agatio-Some people consider the bible not the word of god but more of a 'history' of the people and times and Christs life.

@Atheists-People try to 'convert' because they see how good their gospel/church is in their lives and they try to share it.

[Elliott]

Yeah but do they consider the fact that atheists find it extremely invasive and annoying?

[Enoch]

Hmmmm! I didn't consider that. :P What Have I been doing all my life? <_< I got to get a change of life occupation, and quick. :)

[Blink]

I've never tried to physically convert someone. Rather, (I'm christian catholic btw) I just exist near them. If I make a presence of being a really good influence of a person on people, hell, forget about trying to actually convert someone to Christianity, if I can make them act like a Christian in their deeds, they'll never notice that they're acting like a Christian, and they'll never need to worry about the whole religious aspect of it.

I think that if there is a God, then God(not he) doesn't care about everyone worshiping him, but rather everyone doing good in the world and not getting ****y, thinking humans are the best thing ever.

Yeah, I'm not so much for the religious rules, but I still try to never "Use the Lord's name in vain", even though I swear with swear words sometimes, and I try to visit church weekly. Although recently, I've been saying things in mass and whatnot, like the bread of God and stuff, and looking at it and saying "Isn't that a funny thing to say" and sometimes hesitate in the middle of saying a prayer aloud because of that. It's been freaking me out, and getting me some looks from others when I stop halfway through a prayer. It's sort of good and sort of bad, since I'm losing touch with my religion, but at least now I'm finally making my own thoughts and choices.

Also, I'll stick with religion since my mom used to be a religion teacher, and two of my uncles are priests. You know, family stuff.

[Izar]

Agatio, on Jun 14 2005, 07:05 AM, said:

Yeah but do they consider the fact that atheists find it extremely invasive and annoying?

Not all, The majority that I have met are open to the discussion and sharing of ideas, the rest, like you and Anubis, talk either bad about it or repel it away.

Quote

Especially at a Christian school, where it's mentioned every second sentence.

Your in a Chrsitian School, what do you expect?

[Eugine]

Well, I just decided to post in this.

Where I'm from is VERY religous, everything involves GOD (so like any other "third-world" countries).

I go to a religous school, religous everything and I'm personally religous but I stopped going to church a few months back, I will go back though... Since I'm a Christian and I try to be a good one too.

[Andross]

Izar, on Jun 14 2005, 04:56 PM, said:

Your in a Chrsitian School, what do you expect?

LOL, I have to agree with Izar here :rolleyes:
It may be your parents forcing you, but really . . . I do find it offensive when someone throws their religion in your face though. I haven't had it happen to me in an extreme way, but there were some questionable moments.

[Elliott]

I expect common decency. I'm there to be educated, not converted. In the school assembly sometimes we get the year 12's (highest) practically preaching, and trying to get us singing church songs, it's atrocious. Sure, incorporate religion into some subjects, and I don't give a damn if the teachers and a lot of students are Christians. What I want is to not be forced into reading the bible, or undertaking assignments that directly conflict my lack of religious beliefs.

[My Best Wishes]

Agatio, on Jul 11 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

 
I expect common decency. I'm there to be educated, not converted. In the school assembly sometimes we get the year 12's (highest) practically preaching, and trying to get us singing church songs, it's atrocious. Sure, incorporate religion into some subjects, and I don't give a damn if the teachers and a lot of students are Christians. What I want is to not be forced into reading the bible, or undertaking assignments that directly conflict my lack of religious beliefs. 
 

I agree, next year i'm swapping to a school where EVERY morning there is a 20 min COMPULSORY assembly where the principal reads something from the bible or some random quote or something. I'm christen but thats just going to far.

[pHantOm]

I believe religion is choice, and beliefes; Not passed on through the family. Being put in a religious school only shows that your parents want to lead you in the right direction, or atleast the direction they feel is right. Being is how your parents have lived through your age its safe to say they have more life knowledge than you do at the time. But, being forced to actually BELIEVE in it is a different story. It comes down to choice and personal feelings of a higher being. I personally think there is a higher being than us, but I dont think he is the God that our culture today portrays. I dont believe things happen for a reason and I believe that this higher being will punish thoes when their time comes. I also believe the position of a pope is completely false, I believe this high being treats us all the same not because we are more religious than one person or another, but by how you go through life. If you're a murderer, then you should expect to be pretty harshly treated when your time comes. If you lead a life without religion, but practice a safe lifestyle filled with love and compation with others there is nothing more this high being can ask of you.

[Elliott]

I do belive there is something after death, as the concept of existence ceasing just doesn't make any sense. I don't believe in evolution, and as far as "the beginnng", I really couldn't care less, and to be honest I'm happier not thinking about it, and focussing on the present. I too believe there is something on a higher plain of existence than us, what it is I don't know, and good luck getting me to worship. But there must be something more, whether it's a god is unimportant to me at this stage.

[Dullahan]

*deep breaths*

must not insult peoples faith.

i used to be a catholic about 4 years ago, then i turned against religion due r.e. leesons which in my mind where just spouting crap, here's a tip, don't start a heresy in your high school. I'm not even an atheist anymore i'm nothing, if i said i was an atheist i'd be acknowledging there is a god even if i don't beleive in it. I believe death is the end, nothing afterwards, taking this pov i don't care about dying but anything after death is a bonus, pessimism is ultimate optimism!

[Venus dude 21]

i am aiethist *can't spell sue me* and the whole area on converting brings a certain south park episode to mind. Starvin marvin in space. The missionaries force christianity on the eithiopians by giveing them food to be cristian. Is it just me, or is that a little wrong?

[Eugine]

There are good and bad people all over the world, just like there are good and "fake", bad christians over the world.

[Eugine]

In light of the many perversions and jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!!

Email I got, just taught I'd share it. Think about that email. And yes, I have a good cause for reviving.

[Echo_djinn]

Quote

"I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

Thats how I see it.

You get people who say they are Christians and what not but do they regularly go to chruch? Do they pray on a regular basis? Do they take time to read up on the bible and follow the things it says? Most likely no. So why should God come and help us when we need him the most when we barely ever repect him?

You try and take a good look at the world and you try to weigh out all the bad things with the good and that's hard to do with all the things happening.

[Golden Djinn13]

Echo_djinn, on Sep 7 2005, 04:53 PM, said:

Thats how I see it.

You get people who say they are Christians and what not but do they regularly go to chruch? Do they pray on a regular basis? Do they take time to read up on the bible and follow the things it says? Most likely no. So why should God come and help us when we need him the most when we barely ever repect him?

You try and take a good look at the world and you try to weigh out all the bad things with the good and that's hard to do with all the things happening.

That is the complete truth. People say that they are devoted, but they don't do those things that you stated, on a normal basis. I think its like asking for your best friends help one day, and you pretend he isn't your friend at school.

[Laharl]

People would class me as 'Atheist' but i class my self as nothing, it's only the NO FLAMING that's stopping have a stab at religion

[Elliott]

Dullahan, on Jul 11 2005, 09:59 PM, said:

*deep breaths*

must not insult peoples faith.

i used to be a catholic about 4 years ago, then i turned against religion due r.e. leesons which in my mind where just spouting crap, here's a tip, don't start a heresy in your high school.  I'm not even an atheist anymore i'm nothing, if i said i was an atheist i'd be acknowledging there is a god even if i don't beleive in it.  I believe death is the end, nothing afterwards, taking this pov i don't  care about dying but anything after death is a bonus, pessimism is ultimate optimism!

Quote

Definitions of atheism on the Web:

    * the doctrine or belief that there is no God
    * a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Atheism is the belief that there is NO god, not the belief that there one that you do not believe in. I'm a devout atheist. I despise Christianity and everything that comes with it (though admittedly a lot of my friends are Christians). I just find that everything they say is bull**** to me. t akes no sense and it contradicts itself, and on top of that they ask for money? Nope, religion (of any kind) ain't for me. Not now, not ever. (And don't say "maybe one day you will change").

[Eugine]

Reasons why the Bible is true in everyway:
It is incredible to think that even though the Bible is the worlds number one best seller it is probably the most neglected, abused, and criticized book in history. Some see it as nothing more than a fiction or piece of fantasy. Others have tried to literally rid the world of as many Bibles as possible, such as some satanic groups, for example, who engage in "Bible burning". Others still, in the cults, twist the contents of this book for their own purposes. Despite this, the Bible remains as a remarkable book. It has changed the lives of millions throughout history.

But How do we know the Bible a reliable book? Can we examine any pointers that actually indicate that the Bible is truly what it even claims to be, the inspired Word of God? Let us take a look at the evidence:

Self-proclamation
The first fact is that the Bible itself claims to be the Word of God. Jesus Himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry, as did the apostles who came after Him. In 2 Peter 3:16 Peter considers all of the apostle Paul's letters as Scripture. The early Christians knew they were writing the words of God, even though they often did not fully understand what they were writing. As 2 Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is inspired by God." The words, "inspired by God" have the meaning of "that which is breathed out by God."

Unity
Secondly, the Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself. It remains united in its theme. "Well, what's so amazing about that?" some people may ask. Consider these facts:


First, the Bible was written over a span of fifteen hundred years.

Second, it was written by more than forty men from every walk of life. For example, Moses, very intelligent man, educated by the Egyptians. Peter was a simple fisherman, Solomon was a king, Luke was a doctor, Amos was a shepherd, and Matthew was a tax collector. All the writers were of vastly different occupations and backgrounds.

In addition to this, many of these people also wrote in many different places. The Bible was written on three different continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe. Moses wrote in the desert of Sinai, Paul wrote in a prison in Rome, Daniel wrote in exile in Babylon, and Ezra wrote in the ruined city of Jerusalem.
If we put these factors together, the Bible was written over fifteen hundred years, by forty different authors, at different places, and under various circumstances, addressing a multitude of issues. It is amazing that with such diversity, there is so much agreement in the Bible. This unity is organised around one theme: God's redemption of humanity and all of creation. Hundreds of controversial subjects are addressed and yet the writers present a harmonious theme. It seems that the only way to explain this incredible unity of the Bible by so many different writers is that one author guided these writers through the whole process: the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Transforming Ability
Thirdly, we have evidence concerning the transforming ability of the Bible. Hebrews 4:12 says, "The word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit." The Word of God and the Holy Spirit of God actually transforms the lives of people. William Wilberforce (1759-1833) became a member of parliament in England when the country was in a state of moral and spiritual decline. People were making a mockery of marriage, the poor were abused and the slave trade was booming, and for a time Wilberforce also went along with these evils. But when he was 25, he travelled to France with one of his former teachers, Isaac Milner. During this trip Wilberforce read and studied the Bible with one of his former teachers, Isaac Milner, and before long surrendered his life over to Christ and was transformed. The things that he had previously been involved in now seemed immoral. The plight of the poor now troubled him; and he soon became the leader in the battle against slavery, which was abolished in England in 1833, primarily due to his efforts. Wilberforce was transformed because he read and then obeyed the Bible.

The Bible has changed the lives of all sorts of people. On the one hand, murderers and drug addicts; and on the other hand, top government officials, business men, and students. No other book can make such a claim. This is because the Bible is not a mere book on good living, but is literally packed with Divine power. It is the Word of God with the power to change lives.

The Indestructibility of the Bible.
The Bible is the most well-known book in the history of the world, but its familiarity has not stopped it from being the most attacked book in the world as well. Throughout history, Bibles have been burned and torn to pieces; Communist regimes have banned it from their country's and skeptics have tried to destroy its authority.

At seventeen, Voltaire, the famous French opponent of the Bible stood in a crowded auditorium and said of Christ's first disciples, "It took twelve ignorant fishermen to build Christianity, but I will show you how one Frenchman can destroy it." He spent a lifetime trying to do just that. But what happened? Voltaire has passed into history and the Bible is more popular than ever. Interestingly, only 50 years after Voltaire's death the Geneva Bible society used his printing press and his house to produce stacks of Bibles.

The prophet Isaiah recognized the indestructibility of the Word of God when he declared: "The grass withers the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever" (Isaiah 40:8).

Archaeology
Another source of evidence well worth considering comes from discoveries in the field of archaeology. A good example of the historical accuracy of the Bible is found in the person of King Solomon. For years critics of the Bible doubted the description of King Solomon's wealth as some sort of fairy tale. But between the years 1925-1943 archaeologists unearthed the remains of some of Solomon's garrisons at Megiddo, in northern Palestine. It was here that archaeologists discovered the remains of horse stables capable of holding hundreds of horses, and the remains of the barracks for Solomon's chariot riders.

A New Testament example is found in the account where Jesus was brought before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, who sentenced him to death. However, the name Pontius Pilate was known only from Jewish and Christian sources; there was never any mention of him from Roman sources. This in itself did not necessarily mean that the Bible was wrong, but it did seem to appear that there was a certain lack of credibility when the Bible spoke of a Roman ruler whose name did not appear anywhere in Roman history. However, during later excavation at Caesarea archaeologists found a stone plaque (recording the dedication of a building) with a Latin inscription naming `Pontius Pilate, Praefect of Judaea.'

So here are just two examples of archaeology authenticating the historical reliability of the Bible. And what is all the more amazing is that in most cases, archaeological digs are often not sponsored by Christian groups seeking to prove the Bible. Most are sponsored by governmental agencies or educational institutions, many of them Jewish or Muslim. Critics of the Bible would be quick to publicize discrepancies if they could find any.

Prophecy
The final evidence for the authenticity of the Bible is from the area of prophecy. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies which have come to pass. No book in history has even come close to the Bible when it comes to fulfillment of prophecy.

Here are just some examples: More than two centuries before it happened, the prophet Isaiah said that Babylon would be overthrown by the Medes (Isaiah 13:17) and that the conqueror's name would be Cyrus (Isaiah 44:28).

The Prophet Ezekiel said that the large Babylonian city of Tyre would be scraped away so that only bare rock would remain (Ezekiel 26:4-5). About 60 years later, Alexander the Great tore down its walls and buildings, and with the rubble built a causeway to a nearby island. The city was literally scraped away. Today fishermen dry their nets on the bare rock site of the old city, never rebuilt, exactly as the Bible foretold in the book of Bible Ezekiel (26:14).

One more brief example to illustrate prophetic accuracy in the Bible is that there are over three hundred prophecies made about Jesus in the Old Testament. Prophecies such as His place of birth, how he would die, His rejection by the nation of Israel, and so on. All these prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came to earth, and fulfilled in His life and ministry.

There are so much evidence which suggests that the Bible is real. Why deny it?

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, that was a hell of a post, i don't want to know how long that took. I believe the Bible is true but i don't read it often, it's too long and boring. Plus i know of a better religous book.

Athesists, belive there isn't a god, doesn't mean they have to devout so much of their time and life to try to undermine it.

People cricitize what they don't understand.

[Izar]

Echo_djinn, on Sep 7 2005, 04:53 PM, said:

Thats how I see it.

You get people who say they are Christians and what not but do they regularly go to chruch? Do they pray on a regular basis? Do they take time to read up on the bible and follow the things it says? Most likely no. So why should God come and help us when we need him the most when we barely ever repect him?

You try and take a good look at the world and you try to weigh out all the bad things with the good and that's hard to do with all the things happening.

A Christian does NOT have to go to church on a regular basis to be a Christian. I do not go to Church regularly, but I do pray as often as possible, and I do reserve the Bible as the comeplete RELIGIOUS tool.

And watch, CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS. lol, how many people actually don't know that?

Agatio, you said that you respected Christians and such, but all I see is that you make fun of it. And you used to be a Christian, but i doubt that, because you never acted as one, nor did I see you as one. And I also remember asking NOT to create this topic a while back, because I wanted to keep religious ideas from the forum, but you did anyways.

The bible has been prooved to have been true, Historians use it as a historical truth.

[Eugine]

It makes so much sense to use the Bible as a tool for fixing your life, it makes you such a beautiful person. TRUE Christians are always good people.

If you don't believe in the Bible, just use it as a book for advise on how to deal with daily issues. It helps alot.

Another Email!
Sally jumped up as soon as she saw the surgeon come out of the operating room. She said: "How is my little boy? Is he going to be all right? When can I see him?"

The surgeon said, "I'm sorry. We did all we could, but your boy didn't make it."

Sally said, "Why do little children get cancer? Doesn't God care any more? Where were you, God, when my son needed you?"


The surgeon asked, " Would you like some time alone with your son? One of the nurses will be out in a few minutes, before he's transported to the university."

Sally asked the nurse to stay with her while she said good-bye to son. She ran her fingers lovingly through his thick red curly hair.

"Would you like a lock of his hair?" the nurse asked.

Sally nodded yes. The nurse cut a lock of the boy's hair, put it in a plastic bag and handed it to Sally. The mother said, "It was Jimmy's idea to donate his body to the university for study. He said it might help somebody else. "I said no at first, but Jimmy said, 'Mom, I won't be using it after I die. Maybe it will help some other little boy spend one more day with his Mom." She went on, "My Jimmy had a heart of gold. Always thinking of someone else. Always wanting to help others if he could."

Sally walked out of Children's mercy Hospital for the last time, after spending most of the last six months there. She put the bag with Jimmy's belongings on the seat beside her in the car. The drive home was difficult It was even harder to enter the empty house. She carried Jimmy's belongings, and the plastic bag with the lock of his hair to her son's room. She started placing the model cars and other personal things back in his room exactly where he had always kept them. She laid down across his bed and, hugging his pillow, cried herself to sleep.

It was around midnight when Sally awoke. Laying beside her on the bed was a folded letter. The letter said:

"Dear Mom, I know you're going to miss me; but don't think that I will ever forget you, or stop loving you, just 'cause I'm not around to say I LOVE YOU. I will always love you, Mom, even more with each day. Someday we will see each other again. Until then, if you want to adopt a little boy so you won't be so lonely, that's okay with me. He can have my room and old stuff to play with. But, if you decide to get a girl instead, she probably wouldn't l ike the same things us boys do. You'll have to buy her dolls and stuff girls like, you know. Don't be sad thinking about me. This really is a neat place. Grandma and Grandpa met me as soon as I got here and showed me around some, but it will take a long time to see everything. The angels are so cool. I love to watch them fly. And, you know what? Jesus doesn't look like any of his pictures. Yet, when I saw Him, I knew it was Him. Jesus himself took me to see GOD! And guess what, Mom? I got to sit on God's knee and talk to Him,! like I was somebody important. That's when I told Him that I wanted to write you a letter, to tell you good-bye and everything. But I already knew that wasn't allowed. Well, you know what Mom? God handed me some paper and His own personal pen to write you this letter. I think Gabriel is the name of the angel who is going to drop this letter off to you. God said for me to give you the answer to one of the questions you asked Him 'Where was He when I needed him? ' "God said He was in the same place with me, as when His son Jesus was on the cross. He was right there, as He always is with all His children.

Oh, by the way, Mom, no one else can see what I've written except you. To everyone else this is just a blank piece of paper. Isn't that cool? I have to give God His pen back now. He needs it to write some more names in the Book of Life. Tonight I get to sit at the table with Jesus for supper. I'm, sure the food will be great.

Oh, I almost forgot to tell you. I don't hurt anymore. The cancer is all gone. I'm glad because I couldn't stand that pain anymore and God couldn't stand to see me hurt so much, either. That's when He sent The Angel of Mercy to come get me. The Angel said I was a Special Delivery! How about that?
Signed with Love from: God, Jesus &Me.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Sep 9 2005, 09:47 AM, said:

And watch, CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS. lol, how many people actually don't know that?

BS. Catholics believe the trinity is one person, but differnt names. God up in heaven, Jesus on Earth, and the holy Ghost or Spirit that is with us. Christians believe they are all different people. God said, This is my beloved(sp?) son, hear him. How could one person say that, while he just got baptized, and from the heavens?

And who removed a chunk out of my last post?

[Elliott]

Heh, one of mine was deleted as well. 3 guesses who did it :D

Agatio, you started the religion thread, and you specifically said NO FLAMING religious/non-religious people yet you did. Do you see any of us Christians flaming Athiests? - Eugine

[My Best Wishes]

Yea, the one about flawed religon. Funny enough the bit that was removed from my post was in answer to you. Don't touch my posts. They are my thoughts and opinions, and if Agatio didn't request it removed for offensive reaons, you have no right to remove it.

9. All posts are property of the poster. This forum and all web sites owned in conjunction with this forum have the right to request alteration or deletion of any offensive post.
10. Posts may be deleted and/or edited for any reasons the forum administrators deem reasonable.

I realize what number 11 says, but since i don't have the name of the mod, I don't deem it arguing.

[Izar]

watch, on Sep 9 2005, 03:29 AM, said:

BS. Catholics believe the trinity is one person, but differnt names. God up in heaven, Jesus on Earth, and the holy Ghost or Spirit that is with us. Christians believe they are all different people. God said, This is my beloved(sp?) son, hear him. How could one person say that, while he just got baptized, and from the heavens?

And who removed a chunk out of my last post?

Omg, it is, Catholicsm was the FIRST united christian denomination, THINK CONTANTINE, he wanted everyone to be Chrsitian, and thus came the catholic denomination. They believe the Trinity is in three pserons. Belief of it to be in One person is called Deism, or United Pentocost. Go on The cathworld.com site and see for your self. My dad's side of the family is all catholic, and YES THEY ARE CHRSITIAN.

And No, it wasn't me that removed the chunk. Quit assuming it was me.

And agatio, taht was spam, you know better.

[My Best Wishes]

The Catholic church is not a branch of Christianity. Find me proof otherwise and i'll withdraw my statment.
So, your saying Catholics do believe the trinity is one person, or seperate people? I can't find that site using any words you posted. Provide a link please.

And I never implied you removed it. I knew it was either you or Eugine.

And yes i know i probably sound like an ass but i'm tired and on a topic that gets to me.

[Eugine]

Catholics are Christians. The other Christians are just a branch-of from Catholics because they weren't 100% confident with the doctrine, they believed in following the Bible 100%, while Catholics put in their little taste of their own with the Bible.

[Elliott]

Flaming is directly targeting a specific member and creating a post that will insult/humiliate/start a fight with that member. I said it was a flawed/bull**** religion, not that a specific Christian member is <insult here>. So you had no right to delete any of my posts.

[Izar]

That's proof enough there watch.

And I didn't say flame, Agatio, I said spam, read. And I wasn't talking about the post you''r talking about, because I haven't seen what post you are talking about, unless it's been deleted by some one else and is in the trash forum.

Any other posts on that Agatio, and your post will be deleted.

Anyways, back on the descussion, anyone ever study old religions? Like Greek mythology? I think it's actually a very miserable state, but it's still cool to learn about it.

[My Best Wishes]

princess of hearts, on Sep 10 2005, 03:22 AM, said:

Thats not true. I'm Christian, but I'm not catholic (I'm a protestant) I believe in the Trinity. Its confusing, but Jesus IS God. I believe that I'll never be able to understand it on this earth, but I know once I die and leave this mind wich has its limits, I will be able to understand it.

Jesus is NOT god. Jesus, like us is a child of God. Only he was selected to come down to Earth.

Princess, according to your chart, where do the Latter Day Saints fit in?

Izar-I never studyed it, but all thier Gods and stuff are sweet.

I still don't believe that Catholics and Christans are the same.

[Eugine]

Uh... The latter saints fit under the "Catholic" chart right? I'm not sure though.

BTW, Jesus is technically God, in my church we know him as "God's incarnation"

[Izar]

Christ IS God, He is the Manifestation of God in words, His Son, His "Flesh."

Eugine, The Church of Latter Day Saints (The mormon Church) is not part of the Catholic Church. They are not actually part of traditional Christianity. They believe if we are good enough, we become gods when we die. So, technically, they are not Monotheistic as they claim. They do Believe in jesus, and are INCREDIBLY devout, which I think being devout is good.

[Mars Djinni]

It's like in Greek Mythology, how Heroes preform acts of greatness, then get killed in the process, (Heracles namely) become Demi-gods. Yeah, I studied Greek Myths.

Going along with the Jesus thing, I'm sure Icy mentioned the Holy Trinity before. The Trinity is the one God, in three persons - God the father, God the son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. The Holy spirit is said to be the one that gives us the will to do good on earth and rests upon us when Thirteen-year-olds recieve their Confirmarion.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Sep 11 2005, 12:49 AM, said:

Christ IS God, He is the Manifestation of God in words, His Son, His "Flesh."

Eugine, The Church of Latter Day Saints (The mormon Church) is not part of the Catholic Church. They are not actually part of traditional Christianity. They believe if we are good enough, we become gods when we die. So, technically, they are not Monotheistic as they claim. They do Believe in jesus, and are INCREDIBLY devout, which I think being devout is good.

IF you are good enough.
It's complex enough, and i can't be bothered explaining it all.
Good life, do everything, keep all commandents etc. In doing so you go to the Celestial Kingdom, and yes once everything has come to pass, you be be a heavenly Father/Mother, with the person you are sealed with here on Earth.

Mediumish Life. Terrestrial Kingdom, you become Enlightened, which is what the Buddas wish to recieve, and you recieve the light of Christ.

Crap life, Telestial Kingdom. Quote-

Those who are in the telestial kingdom are 'as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore.' They have lived after the manner of the world, they have been carnal, sensual and devilish. They have chosen the world over Jesus they are, liars and thieves sorceress and adulaters blasphemers and murderers. Their number will include all the proud yea and all that do wickedly.

Which is pretty sweet becuase you still get to be an angel even if you go to the Telestial Kingdom.


Izar-Mono what? And why aren't they part of Christianity?
I didn't understand a bit of your post, The Trinity is Seperate Beings. Go look at Genesis 1:27.
Another quote, from the bible.
God- The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three seperate persons in the Godhead. The Father and the Son have Tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Spirit(Ghost)is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone.

[Echo_djinn]

Izar, on Sep 8 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

A Christian does NOT have to go to church on a regular basis to be a Christian. I do not go to Church regularly, but I do pray as often as possible, and I do reserve the Bible as the comeplete RELIGIOUS tool.

No but I find it hard to not go to chruch and still keep a strong faith in what you believe in. If you don't regularly interect with people in the same faith it is harder to fight off things that can pull you away from it. That's how I see it anyways.

[Izar]

It does make it easier, but i try to do things the hard way alot.

Watch - Montheism is the belief in ONE supreme diety. Mormons believe that there are more. Chrsitianity teaches of only ONE.

Explaining the Trinity ( http://www.afcminist...the_Trinity.htm )

1. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22)

2. The Bibles teaches that there is one who is called the Father and is identified as being God. (1 Peter 1:2)

3. The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3&14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4&5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)

4. The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

Logical Analogies
There are things in life that are triune in nature but one. For example: An egg is one but with three distinctions. You have the yoke, the white, and the shell, but all three composite the one egg. Another example: A piece of fruit such as the peach has three components. A peach has the outer layer (the skin), the inner layer (the juicy stuff known as the meat), and the core. All three components composite the one peach.

[pHantOm]

In my opinion, all religion does is CAUSE conflict. Look at the middle east, where almost all of christianity comes from. Its been at war with eachother over religion for hundreds of years now.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Sep 17 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

It does make it easier, but i try to do things the hard way alot.

Watch - Montheism is the belief in ONE supreme diety. Mormons believe that there are more. Chrsitianity teaches of only ONE.

Phhh, sorry man. I read up until the egg part on the site. Pissing myself luaghing. You believe what you want. ROFL.
Matthew 3:16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:and, lo, the heavens
were opened unto him, and he saw the spirit of god descending like a dove, and lighting unto him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying this is MY beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased.

And Christinanity speaking of the trinity as one? Please.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN

Family Guy quote:Your move Sherlock.

[Elliott]

Agatio, on Sep 8 2005, 11:29 PM, said:

...and it contradicts itself ...

Eugine, on Sep 9 2005, 12:43 AM, said:

Reasons why the Bible is true in everyway:
[removed]
Secondly, the Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself.

Izar, on Sep 17 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

1. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22)

watch, on Sep 17 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

Matthew 3:16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:and, lo, the heavens
were opened unto him, and he saw the spirit of god descending like a dove, and lighting unto him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying this is MY beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased.

And Christinanity speaking of the trinity as one? Please.

I'd say that's a pretty big contradiction, wouldn't you?

[My Best Wishes]

I would agree, IF i didn't know i was right.
How devout Christians think there is only one god i don't know. Tell me why is there God, Lord and Lord God in the bible? Lord is Jesus, God and Lord God is Heavenly Father. ITS SO SIMPLE

K.I.S.S

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Then again, that's why there are so many different Religions, people are too dumb to interperate things properley.

And don't come back with God has many forms, who created the world? Jesus. Who gave him the power/Authority? GOD. I don't know how much plainer i can make it, the Trinity is seperate beings.

[Laharl]

it's pointless arguing about religion, no one is going to change their mind, the way that anti religion people can get point across usually involves offending the religious types, so i just let them go on believing in whatever in peace, just when you die the only thing you'll see is "I TOLD YOU SO" in giant letters

[Lightning Star]

exactly. I'm only here to state my opinion. and my opinion is that whenever a person talks about their faith, others have to go and accuse them of "knowing everything" or being wrong. honestly, guys; We believe diferen't stuff. It's gonna be OKAY.

[Eugine]

Agatio, that example is invalid really, because men changed it to how the wanted it, not the Bible.

We know Jesus is God's incarnate on earth, he is the messiah for the creator. He came on earth to save us from our sins so we would all be presented with Heaven.

So/but, really, you can't say totally Jesus is God but he shares the emotions of God, he is the son of the God and only through him you can get to God therefore he is God's messenger/deliverer.

Can't type up more, tired.

[Mars Djinni]

I couldn't help but check this out. I'll just post once here and leave you to discuss...


It's hard to take in that there are three people at the same time one. God isn't human. It's something we can't explain. It's pointless arguing about something that no one can make sense of. THis was supposed to discuss, not argue. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Sep 18 2005, 03:18 AM, said:

So/but, really, you can't say totally Jesus is God but he shares the emotions of God, he is the son of the God and only through him you can get to God therefore he is God's messenger/deliverer.

Yes, which is why Jesus never spoke of his power, always of the Father.

[Elliott]

Mars Djinni, on Sep 18 2005, 03:46 AM, said:

I couldn't help but check this out. I'll just post once here and leave you to discuss...
It's hard to take in that there are three people at the same time one. God isn't human. It's something we can't explain. It's pointless arguing about something that no one can make sense of. THis was supposed to discuss, not argue. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

If you're going to leave, do it. And this thread is for debating, if you can't do that then don't post, and live up to your leaving thread.

[Izar]

watch, on Sep 16 2005, 11:29 PM, said:

Phhh, sorry man. I read up until the egg part on the site. Pissing myself luaghing. You believe what you want. ROFL.
Matthew 3:16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:and, lo, the heavens
were opened unto him, and he saw the spirit of god descending like a dove, and lighting unto him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying this is MY beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased.

And Christinanity speaking of the trinity as one? Please.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN

Family Guy quote:Your move Sherlock.

Excuse me what? He saw the SPIRIT OF GOD, = Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Flesh of God.

"...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." JOHN 8:24

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.”

John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

http://www.gotquesti...-Jesus-God.html
http://www.jesus-is-...om/jesusgd2.htm
http://www.carm.org/.../Jesusisgod.htm
http://www.christian...n/edn-t005.html


Agatio, I got two words for you for such an annoying post in reply of MD's post. READ MORE. He posted his opinion, and he IS RIGHT. Not you, so back off his post.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Sep 19 2005, 08:36 AM, said:

Excuse me what? He saw the SPIRIT OF GOD, = Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Flesh of God.

Exactly
God-Heavenly Father
Jesus-Son of god(a.k.a a child of god, as we are)
Holy spirit-Holy Ghost.

Seperate beings.

Btw, i like the quote in your sig. Reminds me of a talk i heard.

[Fallen Sephiroth]

i am christain

I hate those breed of SPAM, it relates to the subject but is downright annoying and stupid. Don't do it again - Eugine

[Izar]

Did you read what I said, watch? ["...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." JOHN 8:24] [John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." ] If you say jesus was "a son of God" then what are Christians? The bible says Christians are "Sons of God" and God told job he was "a son of God." JEsus is THE Son of God, and his incarnate, as many verses in the Bible say.

Aside from that, pHantOm, religion does NOT always cause conflict. And Christianity DOES NOT come from the middle east completely, it's got roots in Greece, Italy, Egypt, etc.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar-Final proof, i've had enough of this. The Trinity is seperate

John-17:11-23

Acts-7:55-56

[ForteGX]

Izar, on Sep 21 2005, 09:59 PM, said:

Aside from that, pHantOm, religion does NOT always cause conflict. And Christianity DOES NOT come from the middle east completely, it's got roots in Greece, Italy, Egypt, etc.

Judaism started in the middle east. Judaism is the root of Christianity. Jesus came from the middle east. Christianity's a middle eastern religion, bud. That's where it all started. And also make note that Greece, Italy, and Egypt are all relatively close together. So the only way that they were probably exposed to Christianity is if people from the middle east taught it to them.

[Izar]

Over half of the new testement was written in EUROPE, not in the middle east. I know what I'm talking about. Infact, almost all of the new testement was not written in the middle east.

And watch, you jsut disproved yourself with those verses.

http://www.bridepub.com/bridem63.htm - Pride is a Christian band, but they offer spiritual discussions on their site.

In the beginning was Jesus (a.k.a. The Word), and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. Jesus was with God in the beginning. (John 1:1-2)
There are Three who were present in the beginning: The Father, Jesus The Son, and The Holy Spirit; and These Three are One God. (1 John 5:7)

The Trinity is used to describe the triune God, the fact that there are 3 coexistent, co-eternal persons that MAKE UP GOD. The trinity is what God is. The Trinity is 1 God made up of 3 persons. That is what Catholics, Baptists, Lutheran, and other church denominations believe.

1) There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

http://www.gotquesti...nity-Bible.html

[My Best Wishes]

How does Stephen seeing Heavenly Father, and Jesus on the right had of God back that the Trinity is 1 person?

Joseph Smith History-1:17
It no sooner appeard than i found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me i saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

And in John-17:11-23 Jesus is praying to God = seperate beings.

[Elliott]

This is exactly what I mean when I say the bible is contradictory of itself.
How can it say some parts, quite explicitly, that the Trinity is separate, and then in others say equally as explicitly that they are the one entity?

[Eugine]

Watch and Agatio, why are you not understanding?

Izar specifically said GOD is made up of 3 bodies.

The Son (Jesus), the Father and the Holy Spirit. Those three make up GOD. Therefore the Father will and can call is Son (which is GOD) son, because GOD is all three of them.

It's like a business where threre's three CEO. (Weird example :P)

[My Best Wishes]

I understand, i'm arguing with half of it, he says God is three beings, i believe, using Eugine's example, there is the President (God) the VP (Jesus) and the 3rd in charge (Holy Ghost)

To be honest i wasn't 100% sure of what we were 'arguing', i thought we were still stuck on the trinity is 1 being...

[Laharl]

your wasting your time Agatio, their not going to change their mind. The bible is quite clearly contradictory.

Point 1-Take Pride in your achievements

Point 2-Pride is a sin

explain that one.

alternatively visit here to see how flawed your holy book is

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

[Eugine]

Any bible scholar could go through those contradictions. It could clearly be observed that an athiestical group just read through the Bible to get contradictions.

And remember, the Bible was written by different people, each person has different writing styles on how to potrey The Most High

Quote

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

The Lord IS good to all, but that don't give him reasons to act against people who deserve it. Did you ever hear about harsh-loving?

[Nickelback]

laharl the slayer, on Sep 24 2005, 06:56 PM, said:

your wasting your time Agatio, their not going to change their mind. The bible is quite clearly contradictory.

Point 1-Take Pride in your achievements

Point 2-Pride is a sin

explain that one.

alternatively visit here to see how flawed your holy book is

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

Worst example ever. We are told Pride is a sin, becuase we get lifted up in our own eyes and believe we are better then everyone else, that doesn't mean if i get A+ in every thing in life i can't go 'whow, i did good'.

And what are we supposed to 'change' our mind about?

[ForteGX]

Izar, on Sep 22 2005, 08:07 PM, said:

Over half of the new testement was written in EUROPE, not in the middle east. I know what I'm talking about. Infact, almost all of the new testement was not written in the middle east.http://www.gotquesti...nity-Bible.html

It doesn't matter where the New Testament was written; that happened years after even the evangelists' themselves died. Chrisitianity was recognized as a different religion waaaaay back in the middle east. Granted, it was LEGALIZED in Rome, but really, if you want the true origins of Christianity, you have to look back there in, I *think*, Palestine.

[Echo_djinn]

I wished I had saved the convo I had with my friend the a couple of days ago.

He told me that I should stop beleiving in God because there is no God. He said Jesus was just some dude who made some idea that you should beleive in God. That was his choice to make and I respected it but he was ridiculing my beliefs which I didn't understand.

I find it hard to beleive that there is no God out there. With all the things I have seen, the things that are unknown to human, the creations we have on this world, I find it hard for anyone not to beleive someone had made all of this. I mean all of this can't have just popped out of no where. Where did it all start?

[ForteGX]

I'm a theist. I believe there's a God, but I'm not part of any particular religion.

I don't think God's the creator, but that doesn't mean I believe in the big bang either; I think both creation explanations are equally questionable.

There's one question that's been bugging me for a long time, though (and anyone brave enough to try to answer it, please don't load me up with biblical references; that REALLY doesn't help explain it) : if God has the entire universe at his disposal, then why'd he choose Earth? I mean, basically what I'm asking is, why, on OUR solar system at least, are we alone? If God's REALLY the creator, wouldn't he have populated OTHER planets too?

[Someone Else]

I don't believe there is a god.

We're here just BECAUSE, I believe. It's kinda like "There can't be a void if there is no reality." although I doubt most of you will understand what I said. =/

Simple answer: Just don't think about tough questions. Makes your life a hell of alot easier. :lol:

[Eugine]

Well, I assume God chose earth because he considered us special. He gave us the option to discover new lands to benefit us, wouldn't be that adventurous just to give us one single planet.

In the next 10,000 years providing that man don't destroy themselves or the world don't come to and end (assuming there's a God of course) we'd create our own colonies on ther planets, other solar system to benefit us.

Even if someone don't believe in a God I still think someone should use the Bible as a book of advise, we run to science books to explain something in reliaty but why don't use the Bible to help us in our lives after all no one can say the Bible gives bad advise (ruling out the part of surving and worshiping God for athiests)

[ForteGX]

Oh yeah, of course I think the bible IS a good place to go for COMFORT and ADVICE. But I don't think it's a really smart idea to read it and accept it all as the LITERAL truth.

[My Best Wishes]

Who's to say he hasn't populated other planets? I'd provide you with a scripture but you don't seem to want one, so summarized it says: he has as numerous planets, as there are grains on the shore.

[Lightning Star]

ooh man, this is gonna bog down a lot of things later on x.x

I, on the other hand, believe that the Bible is a source for literal truth. I mean, say if you say "I'm gonna go to the store today" then people thousands of years later would be like "Well, what if "today" meant a time around that date". I think people should stop overanalyzing what the Bible says. If God made the earth in 7 days, it was 7, 24 hour long days. not 256 year long days. don't question more than you need to.

[Laharl]

here's a tip when arguing people, don't bombard the person who you're trying to persuade (me) with info he has stated he has no belief or interest on several occasions (christianity, rather religion in general). You can say "the bibles says..." all you want, i don't give a **** and just blank those parts anyway, now you've got me arguing when i said i wouldn't, oh well.

[Eugine]

Whose's trying to persuade anyone here? We are just defending our faith.

[Mars Djinni]

Just in case anyone was wondering, I think that yesterday, at religion class, my teacher brought up the point about evolutuion being mentioned in the Bible somewhat. Back then, when the Bible was at its life stage, the time these were actually taking place, it was a day in persepctive of God, which we may never know how long. Now, you see, it was the fifth day, I think, that God had started creation of all living things. It states that God had created "Sea Monsters" in that day. What are sea mosnters like, but dinosaurs, meaning that in that single day, included our own findings of Evolution. It was only through God's eyes, not ours, that it was all in one day. It's all contextual, rather than literal.

Just remember, the Bible is only of use to someone who willr ead between its lines andtake from it a new meaning to the text. Jesus didn't use Parables for nothing, did he?

That's it for my bit, I guess.

[Eugine]

So you're trying to tell me for every billion year in our reality it's a day for God? :P

I thought it was the other way around kind-of.

[Echo_djinn]

Eugine, on Oct 1 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

So you're trying to tell me for every billion year in our reality it's a day for God? :P

I thought it was the other way around kind-of.

It states that one day is like a thousand days and a thousand days are like one for God.

[Izar]

Agatio, on Sep 22 2005, 11:31 PM, said:

This is exactly what I mean when I say the bible is contradictory of itself.
How can it say some parts, quite explicitly, that the Trinity is separate, and then in others say equally as explicitly that they are the one entity?

I am not saying that the bible contridicts it's sefl, I am sating GOD IS IN 3 PERSONS, NOT BODIES. get your definitions right. Agatio, you of all people should know the definition of PERSON, and BEINGS.

The truth is, THERE IS NO WAY TO PROVE OR DISPROVE GOD THROUGH SCIENCE. There is EVIDENCE, but nothing proves anything really.

But just to show a little light, 95% of the population(of the US I think, might be the world) believes in a single God, or more than one god, it is a SCIENTIFIC FACT. BUT, that does NOT prove God, nor does it DISPROVE God. However, many scientists know that the reason many people say they don't beleive in God is to get out of the resposiblity.

You See, IF you say that the Bible contridicts it's self, you are also saying Science does. If you say "The bible Contridicts its self" you are saying "Scientists say that The bible does but doesn't contridict its self."

[Mars Djinni]

Eugine, on Oct 1 2005, 10:27 AM, said:

So you're trying to tell me for every billion year in our reality it's a day for God? :P

I thought it was the other way around kind-of.

It really could be any amount of time. No one has ever actually had a face-to-face conversation with God and had been told the exact number of days on earth as to days in heaven, so it's impossible to tell until we DO reach his kingdom and ask him. Ther are still thigns GOd has to reveal to us, or not even reveal at all...

Echo_djinn, on Oct 1 2005, 10:49 AM, said:

It states that one day is like a thousand days and a thousand days are like one for God.

1000 Days...? Years you mean :D


--Oh, and just in case you're wondering, I'm just here for today. See you next GSW Update?

[My Best Wishes]

Izar- I get what you're saying now, but God isn't three people, who gave Jesus his power and authority? Who did Jesus pray too? Jesus and the Holy Ghosts are gods, but they're not equal with Heavenly Father.

And apparently 1000 years here is like a day up there.

[Mars Djinni]

When Jesus came to earth, he became man, thus having no other contact to the Father than prayer. They were "separated" in a way. Also, the fact that he is encouraging others to pray might have led him to praying, himself. The Holy Trinity is all equal, each person with a certain job to do. God is the Creator, Jesus is the Savior, and The Holy Spirit empowers those on earth.

If I'm just wasting time here, I'll just end it today....

[My Best Wishes]

Mars Djinni, on Oct 2 2005, 09:18 AM, said:

When Jesus came to earth, he became man, thus having no other contact to the Father than prayer. They were "separated" in a way. Also, the fact that he is encouraging others to pray might have led him to praying, himself. The Holy Trinity is all equal, each person with a certain job to do. God is the Creator, Jesus is the Savior, and The Holy Spirit empowers those on earth.

If I'm just wasting time here, I'll just end it today....

Heavenly Father is not the creator, he chose Christ out of Lucifer, and gave Jesus the means to crate the world. From religious books, bible etc the lord has spoken to us I believe three times, each time the message was 'hear him'. I probably didn't phrase my last post correctly so that is my fault.

[Izar]

Eugine, on Oct 1 2005, 12:59 PM, said:

Whose's trying to persuade anyone here? We are just defending our faith.

Perfection stated and noted. :P Also note that someone's post is their opinion, so there is also no need to put "in my opinion" or "the Bible say" when we are refrencing that Bible.

Chose Christ out of lucifer? Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve. Watch are you Mormon? If so, then There's something else to say.

And no, the bible didn't on all the planets, but I' pretty sure that the book of mormon did, and yet, I'd like to see the verse you are talking about.

A set of verses to note that JESUS is GOD (Oh, The Bible Says)

Col 2:8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Oct 2 2005, 11:46 PM, said:

Perfection stated and noted. :P Also note that someone's post is their opinion, so there is also no need to put "in my opinion" or "the Bible say" when we are refrencing that Bible.

Chose Christ out of lucifer? Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve. Watch are you Mormon? If so, then There's something else to say.

And no, the bible didn't on all the planets, but I' pretty sure that the book of mormon did, and yet, I'd like to see the verse you are talking about.

A set of verses to note that JESUS is GOD (Oh, The Bible Says)

Col 2:8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1. If you're talking about the Universe one i'll try to rememeber to find it.
2. Yes i'm Mormon and why 'If so, then There's something else to say.'
3. Jesus is a god but not Heavenly Father, who is 'in charge'

[pHantOm]

Izar, on Sep 21 2005, 09:59 PM, said:

Aside from that, pHantOm, religion does NOT always cause conflict. And Christianity DOES NOT come from the middle east completely, it's got roots in Greece, Italy, Egypt, etc.

Im sorry for such a delayed reply to this topic, I simply try to avoid such a mixture of opinions.

I was using the middle east as an example, I believe this thread says religion, not christianity specifically. I am saying that due to the radical feeling in the middle eastof what in thier minds is correct they cause death and hatred among children. I find it simply repulsive that religion is the cause of such hatred that, otherwise wouldnt be there. I also find that religion is only humans way of dealing with the fact that we dont know how we ourselves were created. I find all religions to be an adult form of Santa Claus, if your good you get goodies, if you arent you are punished.

Remember, Religion is all opinion, and everyone has a right to thier opinion and no ones is right nor wrong.

[Izar]

watch, on Oct 1 2005, 06:09 PM, said:

Izar- I get what you're saying now, but God isn't three people, who gave Jesus his power and authority? Who did Jesus pray too? Jesus and the Holy Ghosts are gods, but they're not equal with Heavenly Father.

And apparently 1000 years here is like a day up there.

I didn't say GOD was 3 people, I said 3 persons. Think persona. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Phantom, You said Christianity came from there, not religion in general. :lol:

Since you are mormon, then here's what I got to say and some questions:

Mormonism: God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)

-What does the Bible Say?

Mormonism: After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)

-Again, what does the Bible say? Doesn't Mormonism teach to be Chrsitianity (A monotheistic religion)?

Mormonism: The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

-What?

Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy. "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

-I know the Bible condemns polygamy. Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Esther 10:5,7

Some Mormons may disagree with a few of the points listed on this page, but all of what is stated here is from Mormon authors in good standing of the Mormon church.
http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm
http://www.carm.org/lds/quotes_js.htm

All statements on Quotes has been documented in speeches and such, and are in Utah today.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Oct 5 2005, 09:50 AM, said:

Since you are mormon, then here's what I got to say and some questions:

Mormonism: God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.) *

-What does the Bible Say?

Mormonism: After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.) **

-Again, what does the Bible say? Doesn't Mormonism teach to be Christianity (A monotheistic religion)?

Mormonism: The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.) ***

-What?

Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy. "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).****

-I know the Bible condemns polygamy. Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Esther 10:5,7


All statements on Quotes has been documented in speeches and such, and are in Utah today.

I added stars to your post to make it easier to reply to sections.

*-I've never actually asked the question but in alignment with ** it makes sense.

**-If you live righteously and keep the commandants, Word of Wisdom, etc etc you have the capacity to become a god and have a world just like we are in. As I’ve said before
Good-Celestial-God
Medium-Terresital-Enlightenment
Bad-Telestial-Angel
If you deny the existence of the father son and ghost, after having personal divine revelation you become a Son of Perdition and dwell with Cain and Satan.

***"That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man."
That’s your answer. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT, different bodies, minds, EVERYTHING!!! and James Talmage is knows his stuff.

****-King David. How many wives did he have? Was he a righteous and respected man? Before of course he went and killed a guy for his wife.... In these latter days polygamy is banned. In Joseph Smiths time it was as well, but back then women had no legal rights to own property and such, so many men married more then one women. Polygamy is an eternal law, and those righteous enough to get into heaven will have more then one wife because women are better behaved then men are, and in order to be a God, you must be married, if you're not married down here you get 'paired up'.
And why did you include a quote from the BoM? who got you it.

And those sites are BULL****, do not claim anything on the net as real, so much false crap out there. If you want info use your head. www.mormon.org

[Laharl]

*picks up handgun*

i'm not

*loads handgun*

going to post

*points handgun at head*

in this topic anymore

*bang*

[Izar]

watch, on Oct 5 2005, 01:00 AM, said:

I added stars to your post to make it easier to reply to sections.

*-I've never actually asked the question but in alignment with ** it makes sense.

**-If you live righteously and keep the commandants, Word of Wisdom, etc etc you have the capacity to become a god and have a world just like we are in. As I’ve said before
Good-Celestial-God
Medium-Terresital-Enlightenment
Bad-Telestial-Angel
If you deny the existence of the father son and ghost, after having personal divine revelation you become a Son of Perdition and dwell with Cain and Satan.

***"That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man."
That’s your answer. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT, different bodies, minds, EVERYTHING!!! and James Talmage is knows his stuff.

****-King David. How many wives did he have? Was he a righteous and respected man? Before of course he went and killed a guy for his wife.... In these latter days polygamy is banned. In Joseph Smiths time it was as well, but back then women had no legal rights to own property and such, so many men married more then one women. Polygamy is an eternal law, and those righteous enough to get into heaven will have more then one wife because women are better behaved then men are, and in order to be a God, you must be married, if you're not married down here you get 'paired up'.
And why did you include a quote from the BoM? who got you it.

And those sites are BULL****, do not claim anything on the net as real, so much false crap out there. If you want info use your head. www.mormon.org

You still didn't answer my questions right. I asked for verses of the Bible.

David: I'm not sure he had many wives, Solomon did, but that was BEFORE polygamy was banished.

And how is being married soposed to make you more of a God, when Jesus said that it is better to be unwed and a virgin than to be married?

How is that site bull when some of the founders of the site were mormon at one time, therefore, know the doctines? And they have used verses, and you have not. Email them if you don't beleive me.

[Nickelback]

My friend is Mormon and i looked at that site, even from my point of view it's a little off.

[My Best Wishes]

Izar, on Oct 7 2005, 07:44 AM, said:

You still didn't answer my questions right. I asked for verses of the Bible.

David: I'm not sure he had many wives, Solomon did, but that was BEFORE polygamy was banished.

And how is being married soposed to make you more of a God, when Jesus said that it is better to be unwed and a virgin than to be married?

How is that site bull when some of the founders of the site were mormon at one time, therefore, know the doctines? And they have used verses, and you have not. Email them if you don't beleive me.

I'm not going to waste time providing Bible versus for things i explained correctly and clearly.
You must be either be married on Earth or be 'paired up' up there, either way you need to be married to be a God.

95% of all Anti-Mormon books, internet sites etc is ex-members who went so far againest the church they say the most outragous crap. If i said half of what they say about us to the catholics or jews, i'd either be shot or put in jail. It's BS.

[Izar]

You didn't expalin them clearly, that's WHY I asked for verses in the first place. Most outrageous crap? Name one.

[My Best Wishes]

'Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven?'

Yeah, i fully believe that one of the prophets of my chruch said that, and he only told people againest the church that.

And his Regarding Mormons and Mormonism part, in short 'I know what i'm saying is wrong and offensive to you, and i'm sick of your emails. **** off.'

[Izar]

What are you talking about? Again, you were very unclear, nor do you need to tell me to "f off" Do you honestly want a warning? or was that something else.

Also, Why would some one tell something different to some one out side the church? Shouldn't you tell the same thing to everyone?

If I got this the wrong way, then I really don't understand what you are saying, nor do I see any verses.

[My Best Wishes]

First off all, two things. WTF and get over the ****ing versus.

I was as clear as I needed to be. But seeing as you didn't get that, i'll post the same post again.

He says that Joesph Smith said:
'Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven?'

I've never ever heard of that before, and every prophecy Joesph Smith made came true, he PREDICTED the civil war! My response to that, becuase you said find something that is outragous crap:

Yeah, i fully believe that one of the prophets of my chruch said that, and he only told people againest the church that.

And his section aimed at Mormons becuase they wrote in saying they were offended, in short says:
'I know what i'm saying is wrong and offensive to you, and i'm sick of your emails. **** off.'

I NEVER aimed **** off at you.

[Izar]

I don't believe in Joseph Smith, or ANY of the book of mormon being true, I want versus, using versus of the Bible is the ONLY as you can tell if Mormonism is Christian or not. Why? Because NO ONE ELSE uses that book of mormon.

ANYONE could have predicted the Civil war, it was very close to happening many times. Washington, our first president, even saw it would happen, even Benjamin Franklin, and possibly Jerfferson and Van Buran.

[el_Sethro]

have I posted here yet? I can't remember...

if not, then I am an athiest, not to avoid responsibility, but because I find the whole idea of "god" as being a completely ludicrus. almost all of christianity makes absolutely no sense to me, and seems nothing more than an elaborate plan to control people.

I honestly don't intend to offend any Christians: though I have no respect for your religion, I respect your right to practice it (though not to force it upon others). This is simply my point of view.

[Izar]

You have "respect." if you'd had no respect, you'd be like Anubis or Agatio in this topic.

Me, have Have no repect for athiesm, I think it's a completely rediculous and irresponsible idea. And, i meant that in no offensive way.

Anyways, Watch, fordefense of my statement, here's what Sam Houston (A dude that made texas an idependent Counrty and then a state) said:

"To secede from the Union and set up another government would cause war. If you go to war with the United States, you will never conquer her, as she has the money and the men. If she does not whip you by guns, powder, and steel, she will starve you to death. It will take the flower of the country — the young men."

http://www.shsu.edu/...ry/quotes.shtml

That is exactly what happened. Washington even knew that the US would go to war, infact, the only reason taht the founding fathers kept slavery is because they new that the US would go to war over it's self for that issue, so they tried to postpone/stop it for as long as they could.

[Mars Djinni]

For me, I respect all religions, even athiesm. Religion isn't always following a diety. It's how people choose to live their life. Religion is based on what you believe; so to me, athiesm isn't irresponsible. There are athiests who can still acomplish things that make the world a better place.

Think of it this way. If a Christian came up to a person of some other religion (in this case involving another supreme being), both will deny that each other's god exists. What counts is that those two people have chosen to believe what they think will help them in their life.

[Elliott]

Izar, on Oct 14 2005, 08:09 AM, said:

You have "respect." if you'd had no respect, you'd be like Anubis or Agatio in this topic.

What reason do I have to respect something that I despise?

[Eugine]

Agatio, your signature amuses me. If there is no God, you don't have to go around telling everyone there isn't. From putting up that signature you're just making me come to the conclusion that you are being delusional about is there a God, jumping from believing there is and there isn't a God.

Bashing a "false" phenomenon simply makes it more likely to be true because if it was "false" everyone will simply forget and move on, not feed on the remains of it. Therefore, everyone must come to the conclusion that God must exists because you must be feeding on something to go around everywhere around GSSF (your signature goes everywhere you post if you're wondering) bashing God, therefore you are fueled by something, I'm sure you know what you are fueled by. It's in your signature also.

Name one thing that is false and lasted and is still going on for over 4000 years. One thing, just name one thing. There's nothing. Therefore if the Bible was false it would of died so long, making it true.

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Oct 17 2005, 10:04 AM, said:

you are being delusional about is there a God, jumping from believing there is and there isn't a God.

That makes no sense.
the signature is expressing my disbelief. I know there is no god, so I will say there is no god.

[Eugine]

I'm sure this isn't the only thing you don't believe it, why not express it in your signature also? You must have allotted feelings towards this subject.

What is your purpose of this? Everything has a purpose.

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Oct 17 2005, 10:14 AM, said:

I'm sure this isn't the only thing you don't believe it, why not express it in your signature also? You must have allotted feelings towards this subject.

What is your purpose of this? Everything has a purpose.

There is a lot of things I don't believe, but I see this as the most important. The purpose is to show my lack of belief, and I think I've done so pretty well.

[Eugine]

Why is this your most important issue?

[Andross]

Eugine, on Oct 16 2005, 06:04 PM, said:

Name one thing that is false and lasted and is still going on for over 4000 years. One thing, just name one thing. There's nothing. Therefore if the Bible was false it would of died so long, making it true.

The sciences developed by Aristotle were considered truth for almost 2000 years up until his theory of the four elements was disproven by Dalton (if I'm not mistaken). So that's one thing that lasted half as long.

OH SNAP!

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Oct 17 2005, 10:19 AM, said:

Why is this your most important issue?

Because something that doesn't exist is twisting and contorting the minds of millions of people. Spending hours worshiping and praising something that doesn't exist I think is a pretty important issue.

[Eugine]

Wait... Just to let you know. God has done alot for me. I can tell you that. ALOT.

I know God exists because I can actually see the different me when I pray, when I do things in God's eye sight. Trust me.

I've gotten more religous this year and my Grade's has improved alot. I'm more appreciated in school because the Bible has thought me how to get along with friends, with life more.

Trust me, if you don't believe in a God, just read it as a tool of advise, it works.

[Mars Djinni]

But really, even if He doesn't exist, a number the millions who do believe in Him can find peace in prayer and in worship. Some people even use Him as reassurance that their day will work out. Tearing God away by a means of proving He doesn't exist will probably make an ever worse world, shattering the lives of those who were really devoted to him.

[Elliott]

My argument is:
I have never seen God.
I have never heard God.
I have never felt God.

Sure the people who believe in him can be nice, but I have also had a lot of encounters with so called 'true Christians' who are just downright assholes. Very judgemental people who see themselves as higher beings because of their faith. Due to these factors I came to the conclusion that this God does not exist, no god exists. It's just not plausible, and unless I see a god, or feel one, I will not believe there is one.

If I ever do, feel free to say 'I told you so'.

[Andross]

I'll leave it with this:
REFORM JEWS ARE THE BEST. 'Nuf said :D

[Echo_djinn]

Agatio, on Oct 16 2005, 09:11 PM, said:

My argument is:
I have never seen God.
I have never heard God.
I have never felt God.

Sure the people who believe in him can be nice, but I have also had a lot of encounters with so called 'true Christians' who are just downright assholes. Very judgemental people who see themselves as higher beings because of their faith. Due to these factors I came to the conclusion that this God does not exist, no god exists. It's just not plausible, and unless I see a god, or feel one, I will not believe there is one.

If I ever do, feel free to say 'I told you so'.

Agatio, those were the weakest arguements I have ever heard from you.

You can't hear, feel, or see gravity but you know it's there. I can't understand why you beleive there is not god but I will respect your decision.

Now about those "true christians" did they call themselves that are are you just stating that they are?

[Eugine]

Exactly, ED. You can't hear, feel, or see gravity but you know it's there because of the effects which it brings about. Samething happens with God. Eventhough you can't hear, feel, or see Him the effects He brings about is so amazing, so true, so damn convincing you just have say he is exists because without him your life is really different, without the Bible your life is so different.

[Elliott]

Echo_djinn, on Oct 18 2005, 09:01 AM, said:

Agatio, those were the weakest arguements I have ever heard from you.

You can't hear, feel, or see gravity but you know it's there. I can't understand why you beleive there is not god but I will respect your decision.

Now about those "true christians" did they call themselves that are are you just stating that they are?

Not really weak at all. If I can't feel something, then how do I know it exists? I feel the effects of gravity because if I jump, I will return to the ground. That's scientifically proven. Most of them call themselves true christians yeah. They act like them, pray, go to church, claim to be totally faithful and loving, but deep down they are the same as everyone else.

[Eugine]

No matter how true to God you are, you will be the same person in this world. The difference is that you will now be born again preparing yourself for the after life and of course you'd live a better human life.

[Ravenblade]

Agatio, on Oct 18 2005, 09:09 AM, said:

Not really weak at all. If I can't feel something, then how do I know it exists? I feel the effects of gravity because if I jump, I will return to the ground. That's scientifically proven. Most of them call themselves true christians yeah. They act like them, pray, go to church, claim to be totally faithful and loving, but deep down they are the same as everyone else.

I agree that christians are the same as everyone else. Anyone who uses christianity as a pillar with which to look down on people needs a life - but then as you said, they're the same as everyone else. Everyone finds reasons to look down on people.

England isnt a very christian country anymore so i have very rarely come across anyone who brags that they believe in God as they would normally get shouted down by over enthusiastic aetheists. Ive had people come up to me outside church and attack my beliefs for no good reason at all, except that they felt it was important to educate me in how they thought. I mean, i've seen people (although thankfuly have never had this happen to myself) who have had their head kicked in for standing up for their beliefs to people like that.

It's not like christianity is the only group in the worlds populace that has members whom force their views on others and look down on people.

However, if you dont feel it then there really isnt anything that can make you believe. I wouldnt believe if i hadnt felt it before. I gotta admit though, i dont feel it right now and havent for some time. I still believe as i remember that I used to (and it would be pretty stupid of me to assume that just cos i no longer feel it, it cant be there) and that means i guess i have to try harder to be a better person. Now if everyone aspired to that kind of thing then the world would be a better place. Sadly though, im too lazy to put in any great deal of effort into it right now ._.

[Echo_djinn]

Agatio you are expecting to much out of people. True christains or not they are not perfect. People make mistakes. Whatever they showed to you as personal flaws of themselves is something that can't be helped. They themselves may not realize what wrong doings they are commiting.

[Nickelback]

Agatio, on Oct 17 2005, 08:49 AM, said:

What reason do I have to respect something that I despise?

It makes you the better person, i DESPISE metal and black crap, but i can stand people who like it.

Agatio, on Oct 17 2005, 09:07 AM, said:

That makes no sense.
the signature is expressing my disbelief. I know there is no god , so I will say there is no god.

You DON'T know that.

Agatio, on Oct 17 2005, 09:22 AM, said:

Because something that doesn't exist is twisting and contorting the minds of millions of people. Spending hours worshiping and praising something that doesn't exist I think is a pretty important issue.

That statement is filmsy without proof.

Agatio, on Oct 17 2005, 11:11 AM, said:

My argument is:
I have never seen God.
I have never heard God.
I have never felt God.

Sure the people who believe in him can be nice, but I have also had a lot of encounters with so called 'true Christians' who are just downright assholes. Very judgemental people who see themselves as higher beings because of their faith. Due to these factors I came to the conclusion that this God does not exist, no god exists. It's just not plausible, and unless I see a god, or feel one, I will not believe there is one.

If I ever do, feel free to say 'I told you so'.

It's called faith, churches are BUILT on it.
I've met assholes, both christian and non-christian.

"It's just not plausible, and unless I see a god, or feel one, I will not believe there is one."
Thats just shallow thinking, for lack of better word.

[Enoch]

Izar, on Oct 4 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

I didn't say GOD was 3 people, I said 3 persons. Think persona. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Phantom, You said Christianity came from there, not religion in general. :silence:

Since you are mormon, then here's what I got to say and some questions:

Mormonism: God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)

-What does the Bible Say?

Mormonism: After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)

-Again, what does the Bible say? Doesn't Mormonism teach to be Chrsitianity (A monotheistic religion)?

Mormonism: The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

-What?

Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy. "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

-I know the Bible condemns polygamy. Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Esther 10:5,7

Some Mormons may disagree with a few of the points listed on this page, but all of what is stated here is from Mormon authors in good standing of the Mormon church.
http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm
http://www.carm.org/lds/quotes_js.htm

All statements on Quotes has been documented in speeches and such, and are in Utah today.

(Directed at izar)
I'm going to work my way from the bottom of that quot thing there. I checked those sites, and they are not made by anyone that is in good standing of the lds church. on top of that I'm going to ask that people not continue to refer to us as the mormon church, seeing as it is a term made by anti-mormons, and we actualt prefer to be called the lds religion, or latter day saints. Calling us mormons is incorrect and I would ask that any mod please prohibit it. We beleive mormon tobe a prophet, and we don't worship him.

As for looking up a page from the "Journal of discourses", later day saints don't recognize that as any lds liturature and in fact have disowned it. We don't believe everthing that that book states, and though it has some truth in it, it is mainly lies. So that brigham young quote is false. And the only reson why we did have extra wives is because they weren't able to care for themselves at the time because women weren't able to have property back then.(as watch stated earlier)

As for becoming god. Different people have different conclusions about that. it's only individual speculation though. Which is ok, but our religion teaches that some aspects of our church in the afterlife aren't really our concern. wether or not certain people do become god or have more than one wife, isn't truely nessesary for our understanding. That is what is mainly taught concerning more than one god. Most latter day saints beleive simply what the prophets say, wich is that we will simply become "god like" or how we would beleive gods to be. But the truth still exists. It all comes down to the nessesities. we believe in god the one and only eternal father and in his son, jesus christ, and in the holy spirit. Three seperate beings/entities/persons. Plain and simple! And nobody is greater than our heavenly father. He is the one true god that will continue to lead us all, even in the afterlife. Me personaly, I think I will become god, but that may not be. Honestly I don't worry about it. and I will allways worship the one true god who is my heavenly father.

As for god at one time being a man on anther planet. That's8ncorrect. First of all Journal of discoarses is false. Secondly, The original text said that god had to endure human trials at one point. Such as pain, affliction, scorn. How else would he know all of our trials, like the bible sayes repeatedly. It never stated that god was at one point a man.

All that the Carm web site does is bend the truth. Go look up those whacked-out statements in the actual liturature instead of trusting some guys website, who you don't even know.

[el_Sethro]

Echo_djinn, on Oct 17 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

You can't hear, feel, or see gravity but you know it's there. I can't understand why you beleive there is not god but I will respect your decision.

1. you can feel gravity; it is a force that pulls you to massive objects. you don't really notice it because you're used to it.

2. "Gravity" is a name that we gave to a measurable force. God is an easy answer to many questions we wouldn't otherwise have an answer for (this doesn't make it true). For example, saying "those flowers are so beautiful. there must be a god because only He could create something that wonderful" is NOT sufficiant evidence; you are creating an explination out of nothing, and then trying to use the fact that an alternate explination has not yet been found as proof that yours' is true.

for example, going back to Aristotle's theory of the four eliments (actually five, including Quintessence, which supposedly made up the heavens); he believed that gravity was simply because all four eliments were trying to stay together. fire rises because it's trying to get to the sun. water stays on the ground because is wants to go to the sea. solid matter wants to stay with the earth, and birds could fly because of their hollow bones.
in a way, this makes sense, and really, it's hard to think of arguments against it, other than the fact that we have a more sound theory of gravity (general relativity) now. as a consiquence, like Andross (I think it was Andross) said, these theories were taken as true for over a thousand years.

In conclusion, religion (and most of science) takes faith. however, science uses thoeries based on evidence, as opposed to religion, which is mostly based on emotion. you pray, and you are taught that you should feel wonderful. therefore, you think to yourself "this is wonderful; I must be getting closer to God". so really, your faith is based on your reaction to the practice of religion, which is created by your faith. it's a vicious cycle.

[Eugine]

I really despise Athiests who *think* they know what Christians go through when, *themselves* aren't Christians and DO NOT feel what *WE* feel. My heavenly father God, you can't say that we say "this is wonderful" and we *believe* we get closer to God.

Simply because you never experienced that force we feel because if you did, you would never of become an Athiests because you would of feel the love God has for you. So Please don't call my faith a vicious cycle.

Thank you.

[Nickelback]

Yea, and El Sethro, you would notice that the note up top says 'Religion Thread, Discussion, debating, NO FLAMING'

Basically your saying religion is utter crap; you've stated your opinion before, but now your just being a prick. At least with watch and Izar they were debating.

[Ravenblade]

I spend a lot of time praying, and because my faith is weak, a lot of the time i feel nothing. Now, if i had been brought up to think that when i pray i will automatically feel good about myself then yes, this would be a vicious cycle - but seeing as how i so rarely get any feeling from it I find that argument to be without credibility. Unless we go so far as to say that i have constructed for myself some kind of internal meter that measures how much of this alleged "imaginary" faith I have and then gives me an emotional response accordingly.

I think im sticking with the God theory for this one.

[el_Sethro]

my, you're quick to take offense. you (Nickelback) don't seem to see the difference between debating and flaming. it is sometimes hard to pick up on the computer (as you can't always distinguish the author's tone), but trust me when I say that I did not intend to be patronizing or sarcastic. it is not flaming, it is my opinion, and I tried to put is as civilly as I could. maybe you should read what I actually wrote before you accuse me of not following the guidelines. (by the way, calling someone a "prick" for no good reason qualifies as flaming)

Quote

Simply because you never experienced that force we feel because if you did, you would never of become an Athiests because you would of feel the love God has for you.

that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm just going by what Christians say, because I've never experienced it for myself. I'm sorry, but I have a tendancy to question things, and I think that there is a possibility that there is a different source of that feeling, which is the faith itself, not an actual god. people who have experienced it would most likely find the experience convincing enough to assure them of the existance of God.

for example (here I go again), many "near-death experiences" involving vivid images, light-at-the-end-of-a-tunnel, etc. are furiously defended by those who have experienced them, who say that "if you felt it, you wouldn't have any doubts". scientists have found that these hallucinations are caused by a loss of blood, or other injuries to the brain, which basically produces them to calm you while you suffer this trauma. it was proved because in the big spinny thing (forget what it's called) at NASA, the additional 9+ G's of force drives the blood to the feet, and the subjects have reported similar experiences, even though they weren't in danger of dying.

what I'm saying is that your feelings can trick you sometimes (it's all just hormones, after all), and I was simply presenting a possible psychological explination for your devotion to your religion. Religion is a sensitive topic, as believers tend to defend their beliefs unquestioningly and take any alternate ideas as attacks on their beliefs (which makes actual debate futile). it's human nature. and though you may not like it, people may say things during debates that you don't agree with. I'm sorry that you interpreted my opinion as an attack, but I don't take back anything I said. I don't expect to make everyone here athiests; I'm just giving you something else to think about. read what I have to say with an open mind.

[Izar]

Enoch, on Oct 19 2005, 12:03 PM, said:

(Directed at izar)
I'm going to work my way from the bottom of that quot thing there. I checked those sites, and they are not made by anyone that is in good standing of the lds church. on top of that I'm going to ask that people not continue to refer to us as the mormon church, seeing as it is a term made by anti-mormons, and we actualt prefer to be called the lds religion, or latter day saints. Calling us mormons is incorrect and I would ask that any mod please prohibit it. We beleive mormon tobe a prophet, and we don't worship him.

You misunderstood me. I said that they were former members, not current members. I call people of the LDS church mormons here in texas, and they do not mind at all. And you really don't seem like an LDS church member.

Now, directed to others, All Christians are not the same. Big deal if one christian made fun of you or bragged about God. Big flippin' deal. If someone makes fun of you, then that's their stupid nature. It doesn't matter if they are Buddist, Mormon(LDS), Christian, or Jewish. Christianity does not say "Make fun of non-christians." It says to treat others the way you want to be treated. It's so freakin' messed up that people put all of one faith in the same bin. Sit down and shut up and listen. :silence: Now, how can you believe in a God you cannot see?

As for "Feeling" to believe. I quote some movie:

Woman: You can't logically proove that God exists.
Man: Do you feel Love?
Woman: Yes.
Man: There's your proof.

Not exactly it, but close.

And about what agatio said: If you base your faith on what others say... tsk...

Nicleback: Your answers are very simple, but for some reason, it's actually plauseable.

http://www.evidenceofgod.com/ = A really neat site that got me to not believe in evolution, well one of the factors.

http://www.evidenceo...swers/god15.htm

El Sethro, I believe Feeling can trick you, but Divine intervention cannot. lol.

[Enoch]

Izar, on Oct 22 2005, 06:02 PM, said:

You misunderstood me. I said that they were former members, not current members. I call people of the LDS church mormons here in texas, and they do not mind at all. And you really don't seem like an LDS church member.

It would be very easy to misunderstand you in that way, seeing as you actualy said that the site makers are in "good standing" of the lds church.

Actualy lds people don't really care from time to time because they have been called mormon for who knows how long. So therefore they won't get mad at you if you call them mormon. Allthough, seeing as we are using it in such a formal way, I think it best that people in this topic who wish to speak of the matter, should do so the proper way, aka; the right way. LDS is prefered, and though mabey prohibiting it may be going a bit too far, perhaps just encouraging the use of the proper wording would be best suitable.

How am I not an LDS member? :P What reason would I have to lie about a thing like that? I don't swear, or curse(honestly, you can search my posts, and not a single one will have a curse word), I speak with a common knowledge of the church(not to mention correcting alot of the misunderstandings that have been brought up in the past), and I have been LDS since the time I was a little baby. :D Please tell me one way how I am not an LDS member. I gotta hear this. :silence:

Oh oh oh, and God exists, he speaks to us in little ways, and he is all knowledgable and powerful.(my basic beliefs) :D

[Venus dude 21]

I used to be Christian, but then i chose otherwise. It was weak to me, and i didn't belive many of the things. To me, for something to be true, it has to be seen or felt. There may be a "God" or there may not. I am now agnostic and personally am looking for what I think is right. But to me, there as of now, is a path called science, and i like evolution. So i'll take that view, whatever its called.

[Andross]

Science isn't a religion <.<

[Lightning Star]

from looking back at a post at what I think was agatio's, I have a little response. kinda funny you should say that, 'cause I just came across a joke that makes a really good point.

Jimmy: But there might be a god
teacher: go outside
Jimmy:*goes outside then comes back*
teacher: did you see the trees?
jimmy: yes
teacher: did you see the sky
Jimmy: yes
Teacher: did you see God?
Jimmy: no.
Teacher: well then he must not exist.

*After class*

Sally: Jimmy, did you see the trees?
Jimmy: yes...
Sally: did you see the sky?
Jimmy: yes...
Sally: did you see the teachers brain?
Jimmy: no
Sally: then according to what she taught us, she must not have one!

Kay, that proves my point. just cause you can't see something, doesn't mean its not there. like a brain, you can't feel it, you can't touch it, but we know its there. the only way to see is to cut a person open, when they die. in the same respect, we'll find out if theres a God or not when we die.

[pHantOm]

lightningstar, on Oct 28 2005, 01:42 PM, said:

from looking back at a post at what I think was agatio's, I have a little response. kinda funny you should say that, 'cause I just came across a joke that makes a really good point.

Jimmy: But there might be a god
teacher: go outside
Jimmy:*goes outside then comes back*
teacher: did you see the trees?
jimmy: yes
teacher: did you see the sky
Jimmy: yes
Teacher: did you see God?
Jimmy: no.
Teacher: well then he must not exist.

*After class*

Sally: Jimmy, did you see the trees?
Jimmy: yes...
Sally: did you see the sky?
Jimmy: yes...
Sally: did you see the teachers brain?
Jimmy: no
Sally: then according to what she taught us, she must not have one!

Kay, that proves my point. just cause you can't see something, doesn't mean its not there. like a brain, you can't feel it, you can't touch it, but we know its there. the only way to see is to cut a person open, when they die. in the same respect, we'll find out if theres a God or not when we die.

Perfect Post

I <3 LightningStar more everyday

[firecracker]

hey im lds! aka mormon

[Mallick]

Firecracker, from what you know of us christians, would you say that being a morman is very different?

[firecracker]

well yes, other than the fact that we both believe the bible and jesus

[My Best Wishes]

What the hell?

People quite often asks what's so different about LDS, the biggest difference is that we have the Book of Mormon, and we have higher vaules and stuff, no sex before marriage, don't drink or smoke. Sane things like that.

Christains believe in Jesus and God.
Lds believe in Jesus and God.

[firecracker]

we also consider swearing a sin, to some degree so you might want to add that while your at it

[My Best Wishes]

It's not really a sin, more crude and vulgar, it just sounds ugly. But this isn't the Mormon thread so lets not list every little thing.

[Izar]

firecracker, on Oct 31 2005, 06:44 PM, said:

we also consider swearing a sin, to some degree so you might want to add that while your at it

Christian do as well. Ephesians 4:29 says it's very much a sin. I don't cuss because of that, I don't cuss because I think it's annoying. :lol:

[Enoch]

Watch, we do belive swearing to be a sin. Though I think austrailia may be a little different. I went there once in my life, and when I went to church, over in sidney I think (I was kinda young at the time), I saw a few grown-ups swearing as well. Not just at church but everywhere. But they weren't angry when they said it. They just said it as if it were everyday language. In fact I didn't see anyone get angry when I was there. I didn't even hear a single car honk there horn while I was in the car on the road, while in NY people do it all the time.

Anyways, I think cussing is annoying to. Honestly, when I see people doing it, I feel sorry for how pitiful they look. Like if a person uses it in an argument, I honestly think less of them intelectualy. They make themselves look dumb...............Honestly!

[My Best Wishes]

I guess it differs between the two countries, we don't consider dam and hell to be swearing but americans do.

It just sounds ugly and dumb, people bag each other and if you put it on tv it'd be bleeped out.

[Izar]

Enoch, on Nov 4 2005, 10:50 AM, said:

Anyways, I think cussing is annoying to. Honestly, when I see people doing it, I feel sorry for how pitiful they look. Like if a person uses it in an argument, I honestly think less of them intelectualy. They make themselves look dumb...............Honestly!

Same here. The loss of intelect in humans today it just pitiful. I know I'm not too intelectual, but still...
:lol:

I was reading more at carm.org, I feel like bashing them on some issues, mainly because it's run by dudes that think you msut follow there exact way, and I mean EXACT.

I like evidenceofgod.com and gotquestions.org

By the way, Christian people here, what denominations are ya'll? I'm Independent, not Undenominational or anything, just independent. I don't follow a single church, I base what i believe from the Bible. I like the methods of the Methodists, the preaching of the baptists, and well, I'm just a mixed dude.

[My Best Wishes]

Whow, i'm sorry this may sound like a flame, but. You follow no fixed religon, you have no real stance on matters that you choose to belive. So where do you get the power to tell me i'm wrong and to try to put me in my place?

[Izar]

What? I do follow a fixed religon. It's called Chrsitianity. I don't follow a fixed DENOMINATION, there is a difference. And I'm telling you your wrong in my personal opinions, if you read, and you never gave a verse from the bible to back up what you said, and I find it annoying that people just say things and never back it up.

[My Best Wishes]

Ok my bad about the denomination thing. One thing. Find one thing wrong with my church. It is perfect. Bible says ministers shouldn't be paid for thier service, are Bishops paid??? Noooo. Is polygamy taught as an eternal rule in the bible and we believe it is?? Yeeeeeess. Are we told to pay tithing? Do mormons pay a tithe? Yes. Are we told to abstain from drinking and smoking? yes. Do Mormons drink or smoke?? NO.

And how is you telling me i'm wrong different to me saying your sensitive about religion? I consider that a flame in some aspects. Who knows, i could be extremely sensitive about what people think of my church.

And I'm telling you your wrong

[Izar]

I see your post as flaming as well, and trolling, and you seem defensive. There's no reason to be all defensive and "sensitive." The forums are a place for talking, debating, and jsut hanging out and talk about Golden Sun. Let's let this all be a peaceful place.

You may see it as perfect, but I sure don't. And I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong, just, don't emphasis it with instigation. And I have met mormons who smoke and drink. Go to Florida and check it out.

Mormons believe in things the Bible doesn't. Hence, you use another book as well as the Bible, when the Bible is the Only authority, as you should know it says. You teach that God the Father is flesh and Bones, when the Bible clearly states that he is not. You preach that Jesus is a creation, in which the Bible Says he is not, and that he is One with God. We teach that the Bible says there are no other gods in the universe (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8), you interpret it to mean "no other gods of this world."

And drinking alchohol is NOT against the Bible. Many, infact, most everyone in the Bible drank alchohol. it is against the Bible to get Drunk, but to Drink, no.

Polygamy is not PREACHED in the Bible. It was done before, we know, but God put an end to it when it was not needed, just as Inbreeding. You cannot honoestly think that is allowed. God put an end to that as well. The Bible says that God’s original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Gen 2:24). Mankind quickly perverted the concept of marriage to allow for multiple wives (Gen 4:19). The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of polygamy until the New Testament (1Tim 3:2), but that does not mean God approved of polygamy before.

We see in Deuteronomy 17:14-20, that the kings were not supposed to have multiple wives. Ultimately the case can be made from Genesis 2:23-24, I Timothy 3:2 & 12 and Titus 3:12 that nobody should have multiple wives. Although the New Testament passages relate to elders and deacons we can apply it to all Christians men because these are worthy standards for all men and we should all seek to be Holy as God is Holy (I Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons then they are holy for all.

This post has been edited by Izar: 13 November 2005 - 09:51 AM

[My Best Wishes]

Two things before i post.
1.I like to argue, i don't know why but i do.
2. I realized this long ago but never posted. I have no intention of converting you or anything of that matter and i know nothing worthwhile for me will come out of debating with you, but i like to argue and it's interesting to see what a bible buff thinks.

About the booze

Deut. 32: 33
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

About BOM
GENESIS 50: 24-38

24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die, and go unto my fathers; and I go down to my grave with joy. The God of my father Jacob be with you, to deliver you out of affliction in the days of your bondage; for the Lord hath visited me, and I have obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of my loins, the Lord God will raise up a righteous branch out of my loins; and unto thee, whom my father Jacob hath named Israel, a prophet; (not the Messiah who is called Shilo;) and this prophet shall deliver my people out of Egypt in the days of thy bondage.

25 And it shall come to pass that they shall be scattered again; and a branch shall be broken off, and shall be carried into a far country; nevertheless they shall be remembered in the covenants of the Lord, when the Messiah cometh; for he shall be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the Spirit of power; and shall bring them out of darkness into light; out of hidden darkness, and out of captivity unto freedom.

26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.

30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;

31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

Oh snap.

Trinity is seperate people, they each have a physical body, more then one god, we were once like Heavenly Father.

Gen. 3: 22 man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
Matt. 28: 19 baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
John 14: 28 my Father is greater than I.

Could Jesus's disciples touch him when he was resurrected?

Can't be botherd to prove others right now, short on time.




Matt. 22: 29

29 ... Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

I know you think i'm wrong but i believe you would find this useful.

Scriptures/scripture search online

[Izar]

Don't you dare say I don't know my scritures, don't you dare. i take that highly offensively, as I do study the Bible.

"Their" Wine, he wasn't talking about the wine in general. And they were in their drunkenness.Back then, the ONLY thing besides fruit jucies that was good enough to drink was whine and fermented drinks, water was too contaminated.

What's BOM?

Trinity: God said there was NO other God, never, and that he created everything, and that he is ONE with the Son and the Son is one with the father.

GOD's disciples COULD touch him, he was the "manefestation of GOD." He even asked Thomas to touch him. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

You got Gen. 3: 22 wrong, as in, you didn't put the WHOLE VERSE down.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.


Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

He was talking to adam by telling him that he is to KNOW GOOD and EVIL, and was to be clothed. Why would God say there was more of him in one verse and not others? Plus, when he said us, he was talking of heavenly bodies, and was talking of angels.

Christians know this about God: there is only One true God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8), that He always has and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27, Psalm 90:2, 1 Timothy 1:17), and that He was not created, but is the Creator (Genesis chapter1, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8, Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

Christians historically have taught that God is Triune and that He exists eternally as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). No one can achieve the status of God, only He is holy (1 Samuel 2:2). We can only be made holy in God's sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16) and is the only one ever to have lived a sinless, blameless life, who now has the highest place of honor in Heaven (Hebrews 7:26). Jesus and God are one in essence, Jesus being the only One existing before physical birth (John 1:1-8, 8:56). Jesus gave Himself to us as a sacrifice, and God raised Him from the dead, and one day everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:6-11). Jesus tells us it is impossible to get to Heaven by our own works, only with faith in Him is it possible (Matthew 19:26). And many will not choose Him. “You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way” (Matthew 7:13). We all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, but God's infinite love and grace has allowed us a way out. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

[My Best Wishes]

I take it the last part is your beliefs summed up? BoM is Book of Mormon. And the verses that follow back it up.

I said in my last post that was it, this is it. It's going nowhere and i know what i know, and i would like to say you know what you think you know but i can't and i must respect others beliefs while i'm in a good state of mind.

Yea and sorry for the last verse, works well though doesn't it.

And i hope you find the site useful.

[Izar]

No I really don't find it useful at all, since it's about exactly what you have said, and I've already countered it.

And your paragraph in the middle makes little sense. Please take time to look over your grammar.

And how does the last verse there work at all?

This post has been edited by Izar: 20 November 2005 - 09:09 AM

[Eugine]

FAR LATEX3:
you guys make religion sound so bad (Watch and Izar)! perfect example in show why some people detest religion. stop complaining about your differences and be happy you both serve God the almighty. even though you were both exposed to different teaching you both believe in God. He is all knowing, all seeing! if you truly believe in Him He'd appreciate it. that's all you need to do, believe in Him and just do what you know is right.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 25 December 2005 - 06:58 PM

[Mars Djinni]

Yeah. I agree. There's also no point in arguing about something that people have yet to find out. We weren't supposed to have knowledge of everything. Just because we're the most intelligent "animals" on the earth doesn't mean we know all. Religiously or Scientifically, it doesn't matter waht we need to know. What we do know is that we were given a choice to believe and understand. The Holy Trinity is hard to understand, for example. I don't even understand it well. Choice also means that people cannot force religion upon another. I don't think it's right. And dealing with the Crusades, it's a pitiful excuse to go to heaven. I've heard of fighting for your faith, but that was rediculous. They destroyed and killed and stole for what exactly? A free ticket to heaven? More like an excuse for Europe to expand trhough the single most powerful landowner of the time - the Church.