[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Dec 26 2005, 11:51 AM, said:

FAR LATEX3:
you guys make religion sound so bad (Watch and Izar)! perfect example in show why some people detest religion. stop complaining about your differences and be happy you both serve God the almighty. even though you were both exposed to different teaching you both believe in God. He is all knowing, all seeing! if you truly believe in Him He'd appreciate it. that's all you need to do, believe in Him and just do what you know is right.

That's what we were doing, pissing on about what we know is right, only i know i'm right.
And it was a while ago, i think that after being warned, becuase you express yourself too openly, it's time to stop.

[Laharl]

Eugine, on Dec 26 2005, 12:51 AM, said:

FAR LATEX3:
you guys make religion sound so bad (Watch and Izar)! perfect example in show why some people detest religion. stop complaining about your differences and be happy you both serve God the almighty. even though you were both exposed to different teaching you both believe in God. He is all knowing, all seeing! if you truly believe in Him He'd appreciate it. that's all you need to do, believe in Him and just do what you know is right.

lmao, is that supposed to be intimidating!? please don't smite me all mighty one, if you believe that god doesn't exist then doing what you think is right is contradictiing your post is it not?

[Eugine]

Sorry, but I don't understand your post laharl or Watch. Can you like rephrase?

[My Best Wishes]

Yea my bad. Oh and i couldn't understand the last bit of yours Dullahan.

'That's what we were doing, pissing on about what we know is right, only i know i'm right.
And it was a while ago, i think that after being warned, becuase you express yourself too openly, it's time to stop.'

Yea in short i stopped becuase i got warned, and Izar and myself were 'discussing' our beliefs, but i know i'm right.

[Laharl]

my posts got me confused now

Eugines post says about people who detest religion yet it also tells them to "stop complaining about your differences and be happy you both serve God the almighty" but if they hate religion they surely don't believe in it, so telling someone to serve something they don't exist is contradictory correct?

that's just as bad isn't it?

[Eugine]

Oh! I wasn't talking about non-religous people. I was speaking to Izar and Watch.

[Chrono]

If any of you know what Black metal is, that is sort of my religion, my ideology.

[Elliott]

And well chosen too. I also take to heart a lot of what is expressed in their music. Some misanthropic ideologies. Though I can also identify that although there is a lot of bad in the world, there is also good.

[Laharl]

Eugine, on Jan 6 2006, 03:10 PM, said:

Oh! I wasn't talking about non-religous people. I was speaking to Izar and Watch.

sorry about that i wasn't paying much attention, my ideology is my own created by me and used by me, the good old "don't give a **** attitude" okay maybe i didn't create but it works fine for me.

[Eugine]

Here's some quotes I found interesting relating to religon ^_^

"The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank"

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."

"I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible for such an absurd world. "

"I once wanted to become an atheist, but I gave up - they have no holidays." = LOL

"Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God."

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 8 2006, 12:38 AM, said:

Here's some quotes I found interesting relating to religon ^_^

"The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank"

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."

"I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible for such an absurd world. "

"I once wanted to become an atheist, but I gave up - they have no holidays." = LOL

"Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God."

I thank myself. I created my life, not a god.
Atheist have holidays. New years day, Australia day, my birthday, the Queen's birthday, Xmas.
I believe there is no god, and I don't talk about god.

[My Best Wishes]

How is Christmas an Atheist holiday? And Agatio you always either speak of the 'absence' of an god or deny the existence of a god. Your still on the subject.

[Elliott]

It's not an atheist holiday but we still celebrate it as a time of giving and being good to your friends and family.

And I deny the existance of god, what is your point?

EDIT: Oh sorry I see now. I don't talk about god in a good way, I deny the existance and spit on the beliefs of those who do. It's a lie, well I believe it is a lie. So I will spread the message of the lack of existance, but I will never speak of any god in a good way. I hope that made sense. I don't discuss god, but I will speak of it.

This post has been edited by Agatio: 08 January 2006 - 02:40 AM

[Laharl]

just because i'm no religion doesn't mean everyone around isn't, they still have a religion (well some of them), holidays are an excuse to sponge off the christians.

[Lightning Star]

Quote

I deny the existance and spit on the beliefs of those who do.

see, this is what I don't get. Christians don't spit on other people's beliefs (well, we're not supposed to and we try not to.) Yet, we get flamed for being arrogant, hot headed, and conceited. Wheras those other beliefs are the ones that persecute us.

in my opinion, thats just plain stupid.

[Eothain]

woo-hoo!!! just my kind of topic. Anyways, I'm an atheist, as I don't believe in a God or any form of supreme, omnipotent being. As I've just come back from a LONG gssf break, I'll be nice and take the time to explain why I don't believe in god. I don't believe in god because I believe that MAN created god. That's something that's happened throughout the history of mankind. From my point of view, man creates a fantastic image of a being that knows and can do whatever man himself doesn't know or cannot do. A being that can control all that which man cannot possibly control. Take for example the weather. thousands of years ago, people prayed to the god/dess of rain so they may make it rain, in order for crops to be fruitful. Today, we don't pray to a deity so that he/she may make it rain. We have acquired the knowledge of why and how a phenomenon such as rain happens, so we watch the weather channel. We have also acquired the knowledge that allows us to implement systems of irrigation, so we don't depend on rain for a good harvest. Another example: people used to believe in a god/dess of fertility, and if a woman couldn't bear a child, it was because that god/dess was angry. Today we know, or have enough knowledge to find out why such thing would happen. The point I'm trying to get at is: the further back you go in history, the more deities people believed in, in general. That happens because their knowledge was not as advanced as ours is. For all those things they didn't have a name for, for all those things that, to them, were impossible to explain, they made a god. And that brings me to my final point: why do people, in my opinion, believe in god today? well, as advanced as our knowledge is, there are still things that we cannot explain, and things that are and will always be impossible to man, so man creates a god that embodies the power and knowledge that man himself lacks. Just like ancient people. Man doesn't know everything, and god is all-knowing. Man can physically be at only one place at any given time, and god is omni-present. God knows our past, present, and can see our future, while man only knows present and past...so man creates God.

For now, I think that explains my views well enough. Understand that I'm just describing my own views, I am not trying to impose my views on any of you, I am not saying that believeing in god is wrong or foolish. I do have my views, but i don't "spit" on other people's views. I respect your beliefs and opinions, as I believe man is free to believe what he may.

[Elliott]

Because I don't have to be tolerant. Because I lack belief, there's no 'higher being' telling me that if I'm tolerant I will go to 'heaven'. Whereas you religious people are supposed to be tolerant, kind, humble etc. and so when you aren't, when you're judgemental and arrogant, it goes against your beliefs, which I find incredibly hypocritical.

[Someone Else]

I have the exact same opinion as Eothain.

[Eothain]

Agatio, on Jan 11 2006, 05:52 PM, said:

Whereas you religious people are supposed to be tolerant, kind, humble etc. and so when you aren't, when you're judgemental and arrogant, it goes against your beliefs, which I find incredibly hypocritical.

I agree. Throughout history, christians, mainly Roman Catholics, have been the most intolerant and, yes, violent religious group. Inquisitions, Crusades...something i always heard from christians is that life is god's greatest gift, that for no reason is killing or even suiciding excusable...now, why would christians want to "throw away" thousands and thousands of god's greatest gifts?

[Elliott]

As do I. Summing up:
Man created god(s) to explain the unexplainable.
Now that most of these things can be explained, the need for god(s) is less and less.

[Lightning Star]

or its that God made rules, people didn't want to follow them, so in order to get rid of the rules, they got rid of the god. (aka, athiesm) and since the holy spirit has been with us and sins and whatnot have been forgiven, Gods wrath of no child bearing and rainless days has been lifted. thats why if it happens today, we know usually it's something scientific.

But something not so scientific, is how a group of robbers came in a church to rob them during their offering. and when one guy went to shoot a woman who was praising god, she fell to the ground for about 7 seconds then jumped up praising god. they ran out, and when they looked for the bullet, it was indented in a seat behind where he had shot.

You can't explain that with science. This is something my teacher experienced, in fact, he was sitting right next to the isle and had a close up view of the robber as he stood aiming the gun at the lady. not something i found online.

This post has been edited by lightningstar: 11 January 2006 - 05:18 PM

[Elliott]

Just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean don't follow any rules. This is what I mean about the elitist thing. You take your beliefs as dogma, and anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is wrong, without question. Science proves why people can't have children, why it doesn't rain.

lightningstar, on Jan 12 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

But something not so scientific, is how a group of robbers came in a church to rob them while their offering. and when one guy went to shoot a woman who was praising god, she fell to the ground for about 7 seconds then jumped up praising god. they ran out, and when they looked for the bullet, it was indented in a seat behind where he had shot.
You can't explain that with science.

Well obviously there is a logical explanation to that, and I'm sure if there was cameras all around you would see that.

[Eothain]

lightningstar, on Jan 11 2006, 06:13 PM, said:

or its that God made rules, people didn't want to follow them, so in order to get rid of the rules, they got rid of the god. (aka, athiesm) and since the holy spirit has been with us and sins and whatnot have been forgiven, Gods wrath of no child bearing and rainless days has been lifted. thats why if it happens today, we know usually it's something scientific.

see? but you can't prove to me that god's wrath was lifted. No child bearing still happens today. What i'm trying to get at is: i can prove to you that a day is rainless because two different-temperature fronts have not "collided". I can prove to you that a woman can't bear a child by writing about medicine-related subjects. I know you said "thats why if it happens today, we know usually it's something scientific."...but, why is it scientific today? are you saying that long before it wasn't because people believed in God?

[Lightning Star]

a bullet cannot circle around in the air, c'mon. its logic!

@eothian: but a lot of it had to do back then with the wrath of God, because they didn't have the jesus and the holy spirit to forgive their sins.

This post has been edited by lightningstar: 11 January 2006 - 05:24 PM

[Elliott]

Don't you ever get sick of self-complacency? Don't you even want to question? Rather than say flat out "bullets can't circle in the air, it MUST have been God", why not look for a logical explanation to the situation. Rather than say "it didn't rain because God didn't want it to", why not just accept the fact that it didn't rain because of weather patterns? Or that a woman couldn't bear a child simply because she was not able to, not becase "God didn't want her to have children". And what kind a god deprives a woman of children anyway?

This post has been edited by Agatio: 11 January 2006 - 05:27 PM

[Eothain]

lightningstar, on Jan 11 2006, 06:13 PM, said:

they ran out, and when they looked for the bullet, it was indented in a seat behind where he had shot.
You can't explain that with science.

okay...i don't mean to sound rude, but that only happens in christian environments...it happened in a church, where there are people who believe in miracles such as those. I've never heard of an atheist guy who was pierced through with a bullet and survived, IF the bullet hit a vital spot.

[Elliott]

Eothain, on Jan 12 2006, 11:28 AM, said:

but that only happens in christian environments...it happened in a church, where there are people who believe in miracles such as those. I've never heard of an atheist guy who was pierced through with a bullet and survived,

Same sort of situation on these evangalistic shows. I've heard some guy raised another guy from the dead, and that they heal tons of people per show. Do you ever hear of a christian healing a non christians injuries, or raising them from the dead? No. Why? Becuase it's not real, and an atheist wouldn't back it up like a Christian would.

[Eothain]

lightningstar, on Jan 11 2006, 06:23 PM, said:

@eothian: but a lot of it had to do back then with the wrath of God, because they didn't have the jesus and the holy spirit to forgive their sins.

you're forgetting i don't believe in god. To me, god never existed, and neither did his wrath. How can you prove to me that there is such thing as "the wrath of god". I think what Agatio and I are trying to say is that you can't "prove" anything without mentioning the word "god". Us two, on the other hand, can prove things to you by reasoning, without the use of any affiliation to any system of belief. We can prove things to you by telling you things you, too, know that exist.

[Eugine]

Eothian, that's why I love your posts. You're the only atheist in this topic that actually got me thinking for a while.

With the existance of God, you can't prove scientifically that he exists, but through emotions, feelings and life experiences you surely can. I personally believe in God simply because of what believing in him gave me.
I've always been a Christian, not a devout one - Actually, I'm still not a devout one. I use the Bible for advise, it gives alot of advise and I think eventhough you don't appreciate the fact about prasing God, books such as Psalms and Proverbs can be read by anyone.

I believe in the Bible words because after using it, doing what it says my life has changed dramitically. Now I value my life more, I don't get angry alot anymore and definetly people value me more.

I believe in God because after numerous times of praying I finally achieved all what I know I can achieve. Before, without God (I never prayed) I usually just turn out a big flop.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 11 January 2006 - 05:59 PM

[Golden Legacy]

Without faith, I don't think I'd be where I am now. I agree with you entirely, Eugine. Your faith is something you abide to, not by rationalization, but purely by your own emotions and trust. And that empowers you control over yourself, and guidance for your actions.

[Someone Else]

Didn't I say basically the same thing as Eothain in here (earlier somewhere)?

Maybe I'm just crazy. :D


And Eugine, that's probably because you [enter cheesy mode] believed in yourself after you did that.[/cheesy]

[Eugine]

I can't remember WD.

Quote

And Eugine, that's probably because you [enter cheesy mode] believed in yourself after you did that.[/cheesy]

I don't know WD, but while believing in him my life changed so I assumed he helped me.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 11 January 2006 - 06:09 PM

[Golden Legacy]

However cliched or "cheesy" it may seem, it's at least a viable option to guide your life by.

[Lightning Star]

there IS no other logical reason! if you take physics, you know the path of a shot bullet does not circle around.

the only other options is: coincidence (not logical), or god (?)

[Elliott]

@lightingstar: If there were cameras at present, then you would have your explanation.

@Eugine: I agree with that. If reading the bible is going to make you a nice person, then good for you. Though I believe that even without the bible I can make friends, and I have done so. My life is going good, I am on good terms with a lot of people, and people value me. I did this on my own, hence I don't believe in any god. I see myself as my own god. I control my life. In saying that though, if you reading some book is going to help you, then go for it. It's not for me though.

[Lightning Star]

Eothain, on Jan 11 2006, 04:28 PM, said:

okay...i don't mean to sound rude, but that only happens in christian environments...it happened in a church, where there are people who believe in miracles such as those. I've never heard of an atheist guy who was pierced through with a bullet and survived, IF the bullet hit a vital spot.

XD! we had a whole discussion of miracles happening in peoples lives today. that was just one incident. others had miracles that happened on the road, and even falling from a tree! someone was going to fall out of a tree, and so they closed their eyes, but when they opened, they were hanging inches from the ground because af their pant leg caught on the branch. maybe that was pure coincidence.

and sure, anyone can be hit with a bullet and survive. that happened to someone who used to go to to this site. but were talking about the bullet randomly turning 360 in mid-air. now THAT is impossible.

@agatio: they had crime scene investigators. there was no evidence of the bullet hitting off of anything, the only bullet hole was in the seat behind the guy.

[Elliott]

If you're happy believing some divine intervention caused a bullet to turn in mid-air then good for you. I'll be content believing that it was luck, coincidence, or a hoax.

[Eothain]

@ Lightningstar:

Quote

XD! we had a whole discussion of miracles happening in peoples lives today. that was just one incident.

and that particular incident you mentioned is the one I was referring to

@ Eugine and Golden Legacy: yes, faith, as well as the bible are viable options for guidance or advice. Many people's lives were "turned around" suddenly by affiliating to certain faith. In my case, I didn't need the bible or faith to lead a happy and ( so far ) successful life. I could tell right from wrong basing my judgement on previous experiences and my moral values.

[My Best Wishes]

My goodness this topic has been revived from no where!

So basically we're discussing a bullet going around someone in a church, a catholic one I presume, and how we have no need of god because of science.

Icy-Nah I don't believe it, I’ve heard about heaps of this stuff but even with my faith I’m still sceptical. The fact I despise the catholic faith probably doesn't help as well.

Eothain-Tell me why science trys so desperately to pervert or disprove god if they have all we need.

[Eothain]

watch, on Jan 11 2006, 08:19 PM, said:

Eothain-Tell me why science trys so desperately to pervert or disprove god if they have all we need.

well...you completely miss the point. My point was not that "science>god". I never said that. My point was that I don't believe in god because there are much more logical (at least to me) answers to certain questions than just "because god wanted it so". I do not think that science "tries so desperately to pervert or disprove god". Actually, I daresay that whoever thinks that is simply out of his marbles. Science was not made to disprove god. Science was made to explain the phenomena that happen around us. Science was made because man questioned the principle of divine intervention in everything that went on. Man sought answers that "made more sense", to put it simply. And thus, is science born. I do not deny that there are people who try to disprove religion by running tests in miracle re-enactmenst and such, but I'm not one of those people. As I clearly said before: believe what you may. You have your views, I have mine.

[My Best Wishes]

Oh snap, my bad. Sorry i did kind of lose what you were saying and twist it around in my head. Sorry again.

[Eugine]

To me, in life there is three parts of a human body. The physical, in which we all see. The emotional/mental/soul - the part in which we make all our decisions, cope with problems and finally the spiritual - Good faith, beliefs.

The physical - This controls what we feel, see, hear, eat and feels; physically that is. It lets us change to the surroundings, cope with physical danger.
Emotional - This is where we analyze the physical - How we change for it. How we base our life’s on. The emotional is mostly based on life experiences. How strong your emotional is usually decides how strong your physical and spiritual can be or currently is.
Spiritual - Good faith, believing in what you think is right! What you think. Spiritual cannot be explained by people who lack it. Especially people who try to see things more on the physical side of life. Simply because the spiritual is completely beliefs and faith. Once your spiritual is strong, BOTH your physical and emotional increases! The unexplainable happens (like lightningstar pointed out). This cannot be explained scientifically simply because merciless aren't physical. Science can only explain the physical. Its attempts to explain the spiritual simply cannot be. There are no cells or atom involved.

A lot of you lack the spiritual. Faith is what you need :o.

[Laharl]

why are you trying to convert people? are you a priest or something? Once again christian oppression rears it's ugly head, hey lets invade the holy land, despite the fact the Islamic empire was the only civilisation that could be classed as "civilised" in the dark/middle ages, they don't believe in the almighty god they must die!!!! NO RELIGIONS=LESS CONFLICT simple.

[Elliott]

Eugine that was the most elitist, dogma infest speech I have ever heard. Is my life fine without religion? Yes! Do I still have friends, good relationships with my family, do well in school etc.? Yes! Do I have any need for a spiritual life? **** NO!!! Don't go around trying to convert everyone to your ****ing religion because no one wants to hear it.

[Neon]

I love this topic because the believers have huge holes in all of their arguments and the nonbelievers turn to anger in frustration xD

Eugine, you said that we cannot be whole, cannot be succesful as people, within ourselves, without having a spiritual side, and that that spirtual side is derived from faith.
Everything you said is true (to an extent. I think your post makes you sound like an idiot but the general idea behind it has merrit :o) except for the last part, that we need faith for us to have a 'spirtual side'.
Instead of being blinded by our beliefs lets think about this for a bit. What does your faith provide? It provides guidence. It provides fulfillment. It provides explainations.
We don't need a religion to give us those. Everyone can find these by themselves. Some turn to religion as a source. The rest work it out themselves.

Some of the best people in the world are athiests. And some of the worst are believers. I think it all comes down to who we are inside.

Religion guides what the inside does, not what the inside is

[Someone Else]

You guys are hilarious. XP;

Indeed, Eugine is right to certain extents. Eugine, try not let your religion blind you. Try to realize that people don't necessarily need a religion to be good people. o_o; I'd give examples of some people who are atheist and are still great people but I'm too lazy and sick to do so.

[Elliott]

Neon did a good job of explaining what I meant to say. I was in a real bad mood last night and seeing Eugine's post was the last straw :o .

[Eugine]

It's a religous tread. I speak about my religion. State what I believe in. I don't do it in non-religious topics. When you enter this topic you know you'll be reading opinion on everyone believes.

Just do one thing. Highlight if you want to read my "converting post". Especially WD since you're agnostic rather than atheist. Just sit down, pray and mean it. Ask God to show you a sign to really prove to you that he exists. Do this every night for about 3 days. See the outcome. It helped me, I'm sure it could do the same for you.

[My Best Wishes]

I think you all need to lighten up.
Agatio, I don't know you or your life story but I think you're being very rash and harsh, give Eugine a break. His religion has helped his life and he is only trying to share it, I mean if I found a way to stop all kinds of cancer I wouldn't keep it. My religion provides structure and values to my life. I feel so much healthier and better knowing my body isn't going to shut down and die before I have to because I don't smoke or go out and get pissed every weekend, especially cos I’m under age.

And a quick question, did you go to or do go to a school called HuntingTower? Becuase if you did that would explain a lot.

[Lightning Star]

Eugine, on Jan 12 2006, 01:38 AM, said:

To me, in life there is three parts of a human body. The physical, in which we all see. The emotional/mental/soul - the part in which we make all our decisions, cope with problems and finally the spiritual - Good faith, beliefs.

The physical - This controls what we feel, see, hear, eat and feels; physically that is. It lets us change to the surroundings, cope with physical danger.
Emotional - This is where we analyze the physical - How we change for it. How we base our life’s on. The emotional is mostly based on life experiences. How strong your emotional is usually decides how strong your physical and spiritual can be or currently is.
Spiritual - Good faith, believing in what you think is right! What you think. Spiritual cannot be explained by people who lack it. Especially people who try to see things more on the physical side of life. Simply because the spiritual is completely beliefs and faith. Once your spiritual is strong, BOTH your physical and emotional increases! The unexplainable happens (like lightningstar pointed out). This cannot be explained scientifically simply because merciless aren't physical. Science can only explain the physical. Its attempts to explain the spiritual simply cannot be. There are no cells or atom involved.

A lot of you lack the spiritual. Faith is what you need :o.

I dunno why, but that last part about the faith made me laugh. I don't think its stupid, i just think your bluntless was pretty funny XD.

But I agree, as oposed to some, I think you summed it up very well.

[Elliott]

I don't mind discussing it, but this isn't a preaching topic. It's a discussion/debate topic. Don't start telling anyone to pray. Oh and I like I said I was in a **** mood last night, feel free to delete that post.

[Lightning Star]

No one told you to, they suggested it. There's a difference :o

This post has been edited by lightningstar: 12 January 2006 - 08:25 PM

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 13 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

Just sit down, pray and mean it. Ask God to show you a sign to really prove to you that he exists. Do this every night for about 3 days. See the outcome. It helped me, I'm sure it could do the same for you.

Yeah really suggesting and not telling there...

watch, on Jan 13 2006, 01:30 PM, said:

I think you all need to lighten up.
Agatio, I don't know you or your life story but I think you're being very rash and harsh, give Eugine a break. His religion has helped his life and he is only trying to share it, I mean if I found a way to stop all kinds of cancer I wouldn't keep it. My religion provides structure and values to my life. I feel so much healthier and better knowing my body isn't going to shut down and die before I have to because I don't smoke or go out and get pissed every weekend, especially cos I’m under age.

And a quick question, did you go to or do go to a school called HuntingTower? Becuase if you did that would explain a lot.

It has helped his in a few way, but limited it in others. And there is a fine line between trying to share it, and evangilising to those who have no desire to hear it. You may feel healthier yes, and so do I, but not because of religion. And saying that getting pissed on the weekends is bad is an oppinion, most likely based on that you don't have any friends who do it. It's a fun experience. And no I never went to that school, no idea what you're even talking about there.

[My Best Wishes]

Agatio, on Jan 13 2006, 01:36 PM, said:

Yeah really suggesting and not telling there...
It has helped his in a few way, but limited it in others. And there is a fine line between trying to share it, and evangilising to those who have no desire to hear it. You may feel healthier yes, and so do I, but not because of religion. And saying that getting pissed on the weekends is bad is an oppinion, most likely based on that you don't have any friends who do it. It's a fun experience. And no I never went to that school, no idea what you're even talking about there.

I'm not saying Religion makes me healthier but the way that I live does, I know I’m not going to drink so much I’m going to drown in my vomit or pickle my liver. And I’ve both seen people pissed of their face and seen first hand what drinking can do to families.

Just asking about the school since it's a very religious school and you've stated that yours is, and what you've mentioned about your principal suites the school's principal.

[Eothain]

watch, on Jan 12 2006, 10:10 PM, said:

I know I’m not going to drink so much I’m going to drown in my vomit or pickle my liver.

just for the record...fast food, like the one micky D offers us, kills your liver too. Watch "Supersize me" if you don't believ me.

[Elliott]

I have never once vomitted after drinking. And I have drank pretty heavily at times. It depends on pace and how strong your stomach. I suppose it runs in the family as my older brother can down a lot without chucking either. And I don't see drinking doing anything to my family. My parents don't drink, and there is never alcohol in the house.

[Neon]

I think religion has two sides, the good side and ugly side.
The good side is the guidence and moral values it teaches to society. All that sort of stuff it does to help peoples lives, the stuff Eugine trys to preach. For this reason I respect religion.
The ugly side is the fanaticism and hysteria and blindness is creates in its followers. The way that people who have found themselves through religion claim that all those who are not part of or are part of a different religion cannot ever hope to attain this 'enlightenment' or that they are doing wrong by not sharing their faith.

[Eugine]

I was a bit hyper last night :o

But anyway, everyone has their own opinion. Maybe everyone has their religion. Like pointed out a while agatio Agatio your religion might be "Agatioism" where you base your life on your experiences, same as neon.
We just base our life on someone we think helped matured the human world and provides us with peace.

[Laharl]

lol agatioism i wanna join! No, YOU base you life on someone YOU believe helped the human world, peace hey isn't it something like 10 minutes in the history of the human race where their hasn't been a war or somekind of conflict, great job oh mighty one

[Elliott]

Let's see what wikipedia ( <3 ) has to say:

Quote

Religion—sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system—is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief. In its broadest sense some have defined it as the sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe. In the course of the development of religion, it has taken a huge number of forms in various cultures and individuals.

Thus, hence, therefore, I have no religion.

[Eugine]

1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Read defintion 3.

[pHantOm]

It is a belief, not a religion if one follows thier own guidence. Agatio (And myself actually) do not believe there is a higher being that has a life constructed for us to live by. If it smells like ****, tastes like ****, its ****. Same principle here, if he doesnt agree with religion, hates religion, hes not religous.

[Eugine]

Religion isn't always praising a higher being. It is what you believe in, what you base your choices on. If you base your life on the spiritual and a supreme being thats your religion (eg. Christianity). If you base your life on nature that's your religion (eg. Buddism). If you base your life on your experience (and the governments law) that's your religion.

Not important though.

[Elliott]

2 Links I find interesting:

A list of bible contradictions.
I especially like this. I have never read the bible, but if all these scriptures are from the book, then there a lot of holes in it.

Common arguments towards Atheists.
Saves me the trouble of arguing some points, this site does it a lot better.

Also, after reading through this site more, I came to the conclusion that I am a 'strong atheist'.

Quote

It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".

Eugine, on Jan 14 2006, 07:33 AM, said:

1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Read defintion 3.

Going by that, you could say that everyone in the world is religious, because we all have a strong set of beliefs.

[Eugine]

First of all. A bible scholar can go through all of those and explain the reasons in which it seems God contradicts himself. I'm not but here's some points to note:
1. You cannot compare the Old Testimony with the New Testimony. When Jesus came he changed all of the rules in which God and his servants brought about. He came to do this and die for our sins.

2. Everyone talks different according to the context. Example:
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

The LORD is infact good to all but true infact. Good doesn't always mean if you kill a man you're going to be "good" and let them go to do it again. You pay the crime. It was a GOOD punishment in that time at which God spoke to destroy the people in which he speaks about. If the whole chapter is not posted you simply take those contradictions with a grain of salt.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 13 January 2006 - 04:13 PM

[Lightning Star]

Agatio, on Jan 13 2006, 03:05 PM, said:

2 Links I find interesting:

A list of bible contradictions.
I especially like this. I have never read the bible, but if all these scriptures are from the book, then there a lot of holes in it.

I've seen thousand of bible contradiction sites. most of which take verses out of context or twist the meaning. I should add this to "what annoys you list, 'cause I absoulately HATE It when people take verses out of context. its like reading a book about the law, finding "kill their children" in a sentence, and then assuming that the law is contradictory. @.@

and what a suprise, most of these sites are written by atheists that hate christians and will do whatever they can to incriminate us.


edit: I read a few from that site. it did exactly what i said it would. instead of giving the whole verse, it clips parts out like

"and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

where the "..." was, that means that there was something there, that evidently was clipped out to make the verse sound contradictory.

This post has been edited by lightningstar: 13 January 2006 - 05:44 PM

[My Best Wishes]

laharl the slayer, on Jan 13 2006, 09:53 PM, said:

lol agatioism i wanna join! No, YOU base you life on someone YOU believe helped the human world, peace hey isn't it something like 10 minutes in the history of the human race where their hasn't been a war or somekind of conflict, great job oh mighty one

Lol, to quote Mr.T: I pity the fool. Dullahan, who's world is this? Ours to keep or destroy or gods? It's our world to do with what we want idiot.

pHantOm, on Jan 14 2006, 08:51 AM, said:

It is a belief, not a religion if one follows thier own guidence. Agatio (And myself actually) do not believe there is a higher being that has a life constructed for us to live by. If it smells like ****, tastes like ****, its ****. Same principle here, if he doesnt agree with religion, hates religion, hes not religous.

You know, this is what i hate (not trying to piss you off Agatio) but he claims he knows there is no god but yet, aside from Izar who's always the first one to mention the idea of god? You claim to hate god and know he does not exist but yet you either always mention him or satan.

Oh and to back up Icy: The site says:
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

John 3:13 says: And no man hath aascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Which means no can go up to heaven unless they came down from heaven. Not that no one goes up.

[Sea of Time]

I just have a question. Can someone explain to me in brief what mormons believe as their faith? I'm just curious.

[Elliott]

Let's get my philosophy straight as you seem to be missing my point.

I believe there is no god. I equally disbelieve in the existance of satan.
I hate religion, not god. How can I hate something I do not belive exists?
If you're wondering about the satanic themes images/signatures, that's an image. Like when someone dresses up as a goth, they may not be satanic, but they think dressing like that is cool. I like macabre themed images and texts, that by no means makes me a satanist.

This post has been edited by Agatio: 13 January 2006 - 07:06 PM

[My Best Wishes]

Sea_of_Time, on Jan 14 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

I just have a question. Can someone explain to me in brief what mormons believe as their faith? I'm just curious.

Mormon site Just follows the links to the FAQ. I'd say what we believe but i'd probably be attacked or have my words twisted. In short as possible, we're a christan church.

[kate]

Umm, I have a question. Do you guys enjoy this topic because it helps you learn about different peoples views and values or because you want to defend what you believe in? Just curious.

Oh, and I'm thinking of changing religions. I don't really see it as something you have to commit yourself to forever. Just as you grow as a person, if your values change to something that would be better suited by another religion (or none) go for it.

and Agatio's no satanist. I like macabre things too sometimes. Then again I tend to like lots of things.

and can someone explain the difference between being catholic and being protestant? and why there's a billion sub thingies within those?

[Laharl]

if you're a catholic, you get persecuted by protestants and if you're a protestant you get persecuted by Catholics, Northern Ireland anyone?

[Eugine]

That's so WRONG laharl. We Christians do not do that. I'm really angry at people who just try to criticize us just because you don't like our religion. Get to a church and meet some people before you try to condemn us. Meet the pastor, meet the congregation.

I have friends of ALL Christian religion. Some I am best friends with in fact. We share different views right but we don't fight over it. Yes there's time when we'd have a few arguments about beliefs, but it would be no different if we had an atheist in our group.

[Neon]

I find this topic very frustrating. The only person here who makes any sense at all is Agatio.

You all accuse these atheist websites of the same flaws and falacies that you have all through your own arguments! Listen to yourselves! You're discrediting multiple atheist websites by pointing out that they are taking verses out of context or for being made by people who are trying to twist the facts to spread their hate or narrow minded view of your religion by quoting (just one of) the websites out of context or twisting the facts to to spread your own hate or narrow minded view of atheism!!


On a side note, i'm beginning to see infinte wisdom in this thing about proving Gods existance without assuming he exists. Every argument you present to support God's existance incorporates the work of God or judgement from God. Your 'arguments' are all basically saying "How can you not believe in God when he so obviously exists?".
Any atheist could just as easily say "How can you believe in God when he so obviously DOES NOT exist?", and I don't expect that would be recieved very well.


For reference, I could fall under that "weak atheist" category. I often swing between passively believing in God (faith perhaps?) and strongly doubting his existance. I'm in this topic arguing against you all not because i hate or strongly don;t believe in God, but because you all frustrate me with your shallow arguments and preaching and so on.

And for the record, one of my friends is a christian (please don't make me name exactly what religion they are, lol. I'm just saying 'christian' because it's safe :P) and his family are the nicest people i've ever met =). We've got into friendly debates with him at school over the existance of God and, much like in this topic, we all end up contradicting ourselves or storming off in frustration xP.

I think we can safely say that it all comes down to weather you have 'faith' or not. And that no amount of debating is going to chnage the opinions of the other side. You can prove to a religious person that god does not exist but they will always have their faith, and you can convince an atheist that religion is the correct path, but they will always doubt God's existance.

[Someone Else]

Neon. *thumbs up*

Anyway, to answer kate, I read this topic to "learn about different peoples views and values".

And by reading through this topic, I now remember why I'm agnostic all over again. :P This might sound patronizing, but people are just too stupid to figure out if there is a god or not due to alot of different beliefs. Why exactly are there so many different religions? Because people aren't that smart in the big picture.

I'm not saying that all religions are false, but I'm not saying that they're ALL right either...

I might post more later; I'm lazy right now.

[Eugine]

Different people praise God in different ways, we believe in different avatars but the point is we all believe in God.

There's two type of Religion. The religion in which people praise God and the other in which people praise his Nemisis.

Christians, Musulims, Buddists etc. praise God. We just believe we tap him differently.
Wiccans, Africans etc. (its dying religion) praise God's Nemisis.

ALL IN ALL. God knows we love him no matter how we communicate with him.

[Someone Else]

Doesn't that seem a bit pointless though? Either way, it still points to a lack of understanding "god".

[Eugine]

Does anyone understand everything?

[Echo_djinn]

Science doesn't explain much either. Well, that's not correct. What it really does is just explain. It explains what is already there. How it works and what can become of it. What it doesn't explain is how it got to there. That can be said to mostly everything around us. How did it call come to be? Science can only give us theories, not actual proof and so people say God put it there. It's hard to think that such a simple answer can be correct. Oh yeah, because God made it so. God felt like it and that's why it's there. Now some people don't know what to believe.

[kate]

So who thinks science kinda actually agrees with religion? I do. I think science has all these ways of saying how things work, but when you take a step back and look at it, it makes sense that someone would have put it in motion. and some coincidences just look too planned. Then again there are people who think science is a bunch of hoobly joobly. or who think it disproves God. And before you go saying I don't understand science well enough, trust me, I do.

and this topic hurts me to read. You all sound so mean. I don't think anyone's learning anything. but I have a lot to learn, so I won't stop asking questions. My parents sorta banned me from learning religion. So you guys have to teach me instead XD suckers.

[My Best Wishes]

Neon- I hate all those sites that try to disprove God or other religions. Why? Becuase they are Biased . They are there to promote one side, not give the facts and let people decide, and they do twist things around and not give all the facts. And in the defense of my own arguments, i'm 15! I don't think i'm expected to be able to defend every 'flaw' in the bible at this age, especcially since i've only started paying attention like the last year and a bit.

Kate- What questions do you have about religon?

I know i've done alot of the aruging/flaming in this topic and i'm abit sick of it.

One last things about Bible 'flaws', It wasn't written in english! It was translated.

[Elliott]

Everyone is bias when arguing for or against religion. They let their own beliefs get in the way of the arguments.

Christianity, as with every other religion, is based on faith. There is no hard evidence to support the existance of any god, therefore religious people have to base their beliefs on faith that a god does exist. With atheists however, there is a plethora of evidence that supports evolutiion (though I'm not sure I believe in that either) as well as scientific proof of a lot of other things.

No one can ever say "there IS a god" and no for sure. Likewise no one can say there isn't, though I find it easier to believe in scientific proof than a book that was written centuries ago.

Echo_djinn, on Jan 15 2006, 09:13 AM, said:

It's hard to think that such a simple answer can be correct. Oh yeah, because God made it so. God felt like it and that's why it's there. Now some people don't know what to believe.

Which is another reason I am atheist. I find it hard to fathom that an almighty being just felt like creating a universe and putting people in it.

Eugine, on Jan 15 2006, 06:32 AM, said:

Christians, Musulims, Buddists etc. praise God. We just believe we tap him differently.
Wiccans, Africans etc. (its dying religion) praise God's Nemisis.

Yes but in their beliefs they believe god is the nemesis. Same as Satanists believing Satan is the good guy and god the bad.

Eugine, on Jan 15 2006, 12:50 AM, said:

That's so WRONG laharl. We Christians do not do that.

And I suppose you knowing every single Christian in the entire world can say that truthfully?

watch, on Jan 15 2006, 11:26 AM, said:

One last things about Bible 'flaws', It wasn't written in english! It was translated.

Which is why there are so many different types of Christianity, everyone interperets it a different way.

This post has been edited by Agatio: 14 January 2006 - 05:38 PM

[Eugine]

If they ever do that. They're not. :P

Plus, Satanists admit they praise the devil. Do you see those Satanists? They preach immoral sex, killing, voilence, cutting, drugs. How can you say they believe they're good?

[Elliott]

Hitler believed he was good.

Eugine, on Jan 15 2006, 11:47 AM, said:

If they ever do that. They're not. :P

Plus, Satanists admit they praise the devil. Do you see those Satanists? They preach immoral sex, killing, voilence, cutting, drugs. How can you say they believe they're good?

They wouldn't see the sex as immortal, they would see the killing as ridding the earth of what they percieve as evil, drugs as not bad. Drugs obviously aren't socially acceptable, but they probably don't think that way. Just because your religion sees these things as wrong, doesn't mean another religion can't see them as right.

[Eugine]

OK. What does someone who follow no religion have to say about it? (you)

[Elliott]

I personally think it is wrong. Drugs are damaging to the body. Immoral sex is fine by me as long as protection is used, and you have a good time. Cutting yourself is dumb because it is just putting your life at risk as well as intentionally scarring yourself. Killing and violence are stupid because they are obviously against the law, and can get you put away, yeah real smart. As for praising Satan, I don't believe in his existance so it seems a pointlesss excercise to me. But in saying that, I also think that is there choice, and I wouldn't be one to try and preach to them about changing their lives, it's none of my business, it's their choice. Though if I had a friend who turned Satanist, then I don't know what I would do, that situation has never arrisen before.

[Neon]

But we think it's wrong because our culture has conditioned us to think that way. What religion is our culture founded on? Christianity.
So not everyone believes in God, but you will find many people stand by the christian morals and ideals.

[Eugine]

Name any country where the government allows killing of its citizen?

This post has been edited by Eugine: 14 January 2006 - 09:39 PM

[Elliott]

http://www.religious...org/executh.htm

China, India...

[Neon]

I tihnk he wanted you to name a western country. or more accurately, a christian country :P.

[Eugine]

Well, not that I meant. That's capital punishment, you usually get that after killing someone or doing a vicious crime. Allowed in the Bible.

The type of killing I meant was the point at which you don't like someone, you retrieve a gun, shoot them. The law does nothing to you after.

[Elliott]

Well of course that is illegal, pretty much always has been. Most laws are based on the bible. I suppose that is one part of the book that makes any sense. If someone you love is killed, then that person must be punished. The punishment will generally deter people from doing it, and thus it becomes socially unacceptable over time. It's just in our nature, and the 'commandment' helps to re-iterate and clarify that I suppose.

This post has been edited by Agatio: 14 January 2006 - 10:08 PM

[Neon]

so what you're trying to say is a country that allows murder.

so, what are you trying to get at? Which part of who's post has anything to do with murder? =\

(this post was meant to be after Eugine's)

This post has been edited by Neon: 14 January 2006 - 10:08 PM

[Eugine]

Misread your post Neon. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I'm tired of this argument really. No one's learning anything. We're just repeating ourselfs really.

[kate]

Whoo, someone finally says something smart *claps* x.x What I don't understand is why the bible allows killing/punishing someone if they've killed. eye for an eye and all that. Aren't we supposed to turn the other cheek or something? Judge not lest ye be judged? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone? XD Alright none of those things actually make sense to me, but you get the jist. hopefully.

[Laharl]

Eugine, on Jan 14 2006, 12:50 PM, said:

That's so WRONG laharl. We Christians do not do that. I'm really angry at people who just try to criticize us just because you don't like our religion. Get to a church and meet some people before you try to condemn us. Meet the pastor, meet the congregation.

You don't live here, it is not broadcast on your news channel about riots or protestants have been murderedby catholics or the other way round, there has been no peace in that country for decades and guess what it's down to? the "caring" god who brings peace to the world, my arse!

You have clearly been blinded by your faith, just because you're community is peaceful doesn't mean everywhere else is, Hitler was a christian does that make him a good person?

This post has been edited by laharl the slayer: 16 January 2006 - 02:29 AM

[Elliott]

Come on Eugine, we're not here to convert or change anyone's mind, we're here for a debate. don't ruin the fun by backing down. That's just another way of saying that too many good points have been raised against you and that you have no comebacks. I for one was enjoying this debate, and it kept me coming back each day to see new replies.

[Laharl]

indeed it is most entertaining, he argues well for his age

[Eugine]

Well, read this link:
http://www.geocities...30/science.html

Just skim through ones which interests you. It shows you how the Bible explained many world phenomenas even before science could have answered it.

[My Best Wishes]

Agatio, on Jan 15 2006, 10:37 AM, said:

There is no hard evidence to support the existance of any god,

This may not be what you had in mind, what about the star that appeared in the east when Jesus was born?

Agatio-Did you watch Supernatural on channel 10 last night? If not there's an encore of it on Wednesday 8:30pm on channel 10. If you have already seen it, the story of the woman hitchhiker actually exists, the version that was in Supernatural merely based the story in America instead of England. Aside from raising a few questions it's quite a good show.

[kate]

I love that show. Jensen ackles is my hero. *cough anyways cough* and what's a hitchhiker got to do with anything? and watch how can you prove that a star appeared? Were you there? and stars disappear and appear all the time. It's a natural occurence. I just mean that if you're going off what was said to happen 2000 years ago, then there are better things. Like all the miracles he performed. But we don't have alot of hard evidence about that either. and by alot I mean any.

This post has been edited by kate: 16 January 2006 - 07:13 PM

[My Best Wishes]

kate, on Jan 17 2006, 12:11 PM, said:

I love that show. Jensen ackles is my hero. *cough anyways cough* and what's a hitchhiker got to do with anything?

In the first ep. My point in raising that is the same as Constantine and as Eugine's post about that exorism movie. There's stuff out there that people see or feel that they can't explain, evil ****. And people all go 'nah i saw it' and all that but they don't believe in the counter of that, god and angels.

And i can't prove that the star existed but you can't prove it didn't.

[kate]

I don't want to prove it didn't. My point is to convince people, you're going to need harder facts then that. Because otherwise both sides are just as believable depending on who you are. I don't think you should need facts though. Faith is called faith for a reason. Yah gotta have a little.

[Laharl]

to me there isn't much difference between 'visions' and 'insanity', i sawe the devil honest, why are you putting me in a straight jacket?

[Neon]

Something very interesting I think you all should read =)
http://www.answersin...i1/creation.asp

[Elliott]

The theory of creation takes faith, there is no proof of creation. This is because there is no way to prove that someone or something made the world, all we have is the world as evidence to go on. Believing that someone/thing simply created everything we have is something that requires faith. Take faith out of the equation and Christianity does not exist. The fact remains is that there is no hard evidence supporting god, jesus, or anything of that kind. Of course Christians will argue the bible is all the proof that you need, but then I remind you that the bible was written by man. And that's why I don't believe in the theory creation, because mankind wrote the bible and created that theory.

[Eugine]

Eventhough the Bible was written by man the profound truth it has given about the old days are so so remarkable it is known for archaeologists to use it.
They have discovered many many places, buildings and lands in which the Bible stated.

[Lightning Star]

true, the bible was written by men. But they were men who were inspired by God, and he used the bible to get his truth out to people. now a days, if you were to be visited by god, you'd think that it was a dream or a halucination. people are more likely to believe a man, than believe a supernatural event.

This post has been edited by lightningstar: 18 January 2006 - 04:56 PM

[Mars Djinni]

...And the Bible is known to have human error, meaning the exact dates and stuff may not make sense. Although, it is free of religious error. That means that the Bible can have a contextual meaning, and with that, to some, it may seem to contradict itself, while it makes almost complete sense to others. And come to think of it, The Bible doesn't seem to be complete. The dead sea scrolls of which teh Bible was derived from were tattered, meaning that the "human error" and "self cotnradictory" could also have been due to missing bits of the parchment it came from.

[Lightning Star]

I'm lazy and do not care to look back. what stands your opinion of the belief?

*just got done watching romeo and juliet and is stuck with shakesperan language XD*

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 19 2006, 07:12 AM, said:

Eventhough the Bible was written by man the profound truth it has given about the old days are so so remarkable it is known for archaeologists to use it.
They have discovered many many places, buildings and lands in which the Bible stated.

True some of the dates, places etc. may be factual, but the bible alone cannot prove the existance of a god, jesus, holy spirits, people rising from the dead etc.

lightningstar, on Jan 19 2006, 10:56 AM, said:

true, the bible was written by men. But they were men who were inspired by God

Men who say they were inspired by god. If I got a team of 100 or so people together and wrote a book that described the creation of the earth, and then claimed that we were inspired by god, would I suddenly get millions of people following my religion. Probably not, but that's what those people did, and over 2000 years the religion has grown. So it's plausible to say if I was to write this new book, that in 2000 years I would have the next Christianity. My point here is that they said they were inspired by god, and anybody could do that. The bible contains no hard evidence of the existance of god.

Mars Djinni, on Jan 19 2006, 12:30 PM, said:

...And the Bible is known to have human error, meaning the exact dates and stuff may not make sense. Although, it is free of religious error.

Of course it is free of religious error, the religion is based on the book, so it's impossible for it to have any religious error. Keep in mind everyone interprets it differently, thus arguments will arise according with each persons interpretation.

[Laharl]

during the time the bible was written conditions were so appauling people needed to comfort, if their lives are so **** and their not going to get anything for it what's the point of living then? Some people saw an oppurtunity and made the world's first and largest co-orperation- the church

[Eugine]

IMO the old days were much better than current days. Yes we have technology with us now, but back then the friendliness of the people were so deep. *Facts taken from Bible*.

Anyway, Agatio I doubt what you say is plausible (about creating a religion). First of all, you need incredible faith. Second to *overcome* Christianity would be a very tough job in that you'd have to:

Form a logical book, the Bible wasn't written in just one mans lifetime. It was written over a period of over 2000 years. Carbon dating shows that the buildings in which the Bible states were of different years (research carbon dating if you want to know how it works). Since the dead cannot communicate with the living, it was impossible for the writers to communicate with or just make some wild suggestion about future Bible prophecies. Even if they ever did, it was through the power of God who helped them achieved it. They predicted future Bible stories.
Remember, I'd like to repeat. Carbon dating suggests the Bible was not written in the same year by a group of 2000 men.

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 20 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

IMO the old days were much better than current days. Yes we have technology with us now, but back then the friendliness of the people were so deep. *Facts taken from Bible*.

Anyway, Agatio I doubt what you say is plausible (about creating a religion). First of all, you need incredible faith. Second to *overcome* Christianity would be a very tough job in that you'd have to:

Form a logical book, the Bible wasn't written in just one mans lifetime. It was written over a period of over 2000 years. Carbon dating shows that the buildings in which the Bible states were of different years (research carbon dating if you want to know how it works). Since the dead cannot communicate with the living, it was impossible for the writers to communicate with or just make some wild suggestion about future Bible prophecies. Even if they ever did, it was through the power of God who helped them achieved it. They predicted future Bible stories.
Remember, I'd like to repeat. Carbon dating suggests the Bible was not written in the same year by a group of 2000 men.

I suppose when you read the bible you skipped all the wars and crucifictions?

And scientology is a created religion, and Darwin created the theory of evolution. Also, I'm sure Buddhism would have been thought up by Asians centuried ago, there is no record of it in the bible, and that's supposed to be all knowing right? The point is, other religions have simply been thought up people over time, and your faith is blinding you to the possibility that so was christianity.

[Mars Djinni]

Agatio, on Jan 19 2006, 04:29 AM, said:

Of course it is free of religious error, the religion is based on the book, so it's impossible for it to have any religious error. Keep in mind everyone interprets it differently, thus arguments will arise according with each persons interpretation.

I wouldn't say the religion is based on the book. Christianity was upholded by its founders of which few took part in writing the Bible. The Bible may be the most important resource, but it surely isn't the center of teh faith.

Bear with me here, I'm trying to word it as neutral possible.

[My Best Wishes]

MD you hit it spot on.

Agatio, on Jan 20 2006, 12:06 PM, said:

I suppose when you read the bible you skipped all the wars and crucifictions?

And scientology is a created religion, and Darwin created the theory of evolution. Also, I'm sure Buddhism would have been thought up by Asians centuried ago, there is no record of it in the bible, and that's supposed to be all knowing right? The point is, other religions have simply been thought up people over time, and your faith is blinding you to the possibility that so was christianity.

Buddism doesn't believe/whorship a god, they well i guess whorship in a sense the dead guy Budda and they wish to become enlightened, which is why they're so peaceful. (Pretty sure thats right)

[Mars Djinni]

A religion, as I may have said in posts earlier, is someone's way of life. In that case, religion doesn't mean that one must follow a god and submit to a supreme force's will. Budda is more of a role model rather than a god or prophet, I guess. I believe that Buddists don't worship him as an omnipotent being, but rather acknowledge him for his legacy.

[Laharl]

Ancient China was a buddist state, 3,000 years before the birth of christ ;)

[Elliott]

watch, on Jan 15 2006, 11:26 AM, said:

Neon- I hate all those sites that try to disprove God or other religions. Why? Becuase they are Biased . They are there to promote one side, not give the facts and let people decide, and they do twist things around and not give all the facts.

That is exactly what religious sites do as well. Everyone gets blinded by their beliefs at times, this is why when it comes to religion, I try to keep an open mind so as to have a logical understanding of things.

[Eugine]

I keep an open mind to all religions. I've studied practically all the religions of the world and even atheism. I just found Christianity to benefit me the most in that it made me appreciate live much more.

[Elliott]

There isn't a whole lot to study about atheism. It's simply a lack of belief in the existance of gods. There is no holy book or spiritual practices, just nothing.

[Laharl]

here's a funny stroy, i was in Liverpool and i was given a leaflet by christian zealots protetsing that they don't want Jerry Springer the Opera to come the theatre they claim it is blasphmous and people cannot mock the almighty god, then they proceed to hammer christian crap into the unfortunate reader.

Quotes like

"One day he will return in judgement, to condemn the wicked and justify the righteous. How will the Empire Theatre management stand in that day? How will you stand?"

this isn't a joke i've got the leaflet in front of me.

And my personal favourite

"Our whole nation prayed during the Second World War and we were saved miraculously"

I AM NOT MISQUOTING OR TAKING THIS OUT OF CONTEXT.

so WW2 victory had nothing to do with the deaths of thousands of allied soldiers then?

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 20 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

Carbon dating shows that the buildings in which the Bible states were of different years (research carbon dating if you want to know how it works).

Wouldn't carbon dating also show that there are fossils from millions of years ago, though according to the bible, the earth was only 'created' around 5,000 years ago?

[Eugine]

I don't know. No one knows how long Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, it could have possibly been billions of years until they decide to eat a fruit.

Some people also says when the Bible was translated from it's original language it was confused with 7 days when it was infact 7 billion years. You see, some words have more than one meaning.

Some also says the Bible isn't true and unreliable.

Some also says Carbon Dating isn't reliable because scientists usually lie to contradict the Bible.

Believe which you may.

[Elliott]

How can a human live for 7 billion years? Are you saying they were immortal or something? I suppose that's not so far fetched in you believe that the dead can be brought back to life and that a mere touch can heal leprosy.

I find it hard to believe that every translation of the bible mixed days with billions of years. A lot of people have translated it correct, how can they ALL get it wrong?

And I also find it hard to believe that every single carbom dating scientist would lie simply to contradict the bible. There must be thousands of people who have done carbon dating on fossils, how could they ALL have lied in order to contradict a religion?

This post has been edited by Agatio: 23 January 2006 - 06:03 PM

[Eugine]

Like for instance remember the Noah and the Arc story in the Bible? People are wondering whether it was the whole earth or just North Africa (I think)... Can't remember where the Bible stories took place.

I'll have to research more about the scientists part though, not too adept in that.

[Laharl]

Eugine, on Jan 24 2006, 12:12 AM, said:

Like for instance remember the Noah and the Arc story in the Bible? People are wondering whether it was the whole earth or just North Africa (I think)... Can't remember where the Bible stories took place.

I'll have to research more about the scientists part though, not too adept in that.

Palestine maybe? that is the christian holy land, oh wait no it isn't it's the JEWISH holy land, my mistake.

Also either way with the Earth creation things it's wrong, it is clearly not seven days and scientists have proved the earth is 4.5 Billion years old, there goes 7 billion

[Mars Djinni]

The Christian Holy Land is Jerusalem and/or Rome if I can recall.

I've been told that it has been confirmed that there was a flood in early times adn taht there was a ship dated using carbon dating to that time. Whether it can be confirmed that it is Noah's or not is impossible, however.

[Someone Else]

I think we should all know that the Noah's Arc to story is false'd. Basically, from my knowledge, God purged the Earth of all humans so he could "restart" the Earth (except Noah and some other dudes) because humans turned evil.

What's that called? I remember that there was some kind of name for it.

But anyway, I think the Noah's Arc story is false, like I said. If it were TRUE, God would have purged the Earth DECADES upon DECADES ago.

[My Best Wishes]

Wind Dude, on Jan 26 2006, 01:19 PM, said:

I think we should all know that the Noah's Arc to story is false'd. Basically, from my knowledge, God purged the Earth of all humans so he could "restart" the Earth (except Noah and some other dudes) because humans turned evil.

What's that called? I remember that there was some kind of name for it.

But anyway, I think the Noah's Arc story is false, like I said. If it were TRUE, God would have purged the Earth DECADES upon DECADES ago.

And the part where the lord promised Noah that he would never flood the Earth again...

laharl-I'm not going to deny there are ALOT of Religous physicos out there, i think my church has like 4 breakaway churches. One of them believes in Polygamy and practice it <_<

[Eugine]

Blah. WD read the Bible before you try to say something. God indicated in the Bible that he will never flood the world again, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't send signs. All those massive earthquakes in the world, natural disasters increasing, volcanoes errupting, all the diseases.

Don't you think these could be signs from God?

[My Best Wishes]

And the flood was the 'baptism' for the world, purging the sins and saving the wicked, forgiving and forgetting, and starting the world anew.

Also there is going to be another baptism but by fire.

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 26 2006, 06:56 PM, said:

All those massive earthquakes in the world, natural disasters increasing, volcanoes errupting, all the diseases.

Don't you think these could be signs from God?

No. Science shows these are simply natural 'disasters'. The movement of the plates in the earth causes earthquakes, volcano eruptions are a natural occurance (we learned about how they work in school but I forgot exactly, look it up), diseases are caused by germs. And in case you ask, tornadoes are caused by weather patterns <_< .

[Laharl]

Earthquakes caused by a god that's a good one. Plate Techtonics anyone?

[Someone Else]

Eugine, on Jan 25 2006, 10:56 PM, said:

Blah. WD read the Bible before you try to say something. God indicated in the Bible that he will never flood the world again, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't send signs. All those massive earthquakes in the world, natural disasters increasing, volcanoes errupting, all the diseases.

EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. The Big G is creative, I'm sure he could end the world some other way. XP;

[pHantOm]

AIDS is the devil >_<

Disease is more widespread now adays because PEOPLE are more widespread, we travel more we are closer in proximity and have alot of people crammed in areas. As medicine improves, the viruses will improve aswell to adapt to the defense. <_< Its all SCIENCE, religion is all belief, some religions STILL believe that the sun revolves around us, others like witchcraft worship the Earth itself. Such a wide variety of religion, and we KNOW some of the things they believe are wrong. So what makes yours right, we just cant prove yours is wrong yet, hopefully soon though so people will stop with all this bs. :P

[My Best Wishes]

You're all so shallow minded! Look at the state of the world in say 1840 compared to today. Look at how the values and morals of the world have gone downhill. The civil war, world war 1, world war 2, Vietnam, gulf war, the war on terror. Look at how easily it is to obtain things now a days, despite the 18+ limit people still are drinking, smoking, looking at porn, having sex etc. The worlds values have been traded out for a quick buck and look at how many 'disasters' happened last year. Boxing day tusnami, earthquakes, volcanos, floods, hurricane Katrina etc etc etc

[Someone Else]

Hurricanes, volcanoes, floods, earthquakes... etc. have ALWAYS happened. Who exactly said that they didn't have as much of them back then?

I'm not exactly big on science, but I'm sure Global Warming had something to do with the hurricanes. 8B I can't say anything about the earthquake related issues, though. (tsunamis, floods, etc.)

[pHantOm]

watch, on Jan 26 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

You're all so shallow minded! Look at the state of the world in say 1840 compared to today. Look at how the values and morals of the world have gone downhill. The civil war, world war 1, world war 2, Vietnam, gulf war, the war on terror. Look at how easily it is to obtain things now a days, despite the 18+ limit people still are drinking, smoking, looking at porn, having sex etc. The worlds values have been traded out for a quick buck and look at how many 'disasters' happened last year. Boxing day tusnami, earthquakes, volcanos, floods, hurricane Katrina etc etc etc

No, we arent you are. You accept something with no real evidence whereas we explore the alternatives, not just accept something as true.

[Eugine]

Science simply explains how God does it.

[pHantOm]

Eugine, on Jan 26 2006, 06:01 PM, said:

Science simply explains how God does it.

Show me, you have the stage.

[Eugine]

Before I show you, you must enter a realm which needs faith. Do you have what it takes?

[gsninja]

Sure, we have what it takes <_<

I'm a Christian-Catholic, and am obviously monotheistic. Science and religion have always contradicted each other, some people say religion is simply just something people have created for the sole basis to give hope to others. Those same people think science is the only reason that explains the natural occurances in the universe. However, I believe that God, indeed, has more to do with just the universe...

[Elliott]

How can religion contradict science? Science uses proof, facts, and hard evidence to explain what makes the earth, our bodies, and nature tick.

Religion (primarily christianity) simply says that god wills it to happen, and it happens, with no hard evidence to back it up.

Because of this, you need 'faith' to be able to follow and believe in that religons ways. With science, you get the facts, and you're on your merry way, with religion, you need faith to be able to believe that one almighty being makes everything happen.

[Toasty64]

Neo_Genesis, on Jun 7 2005, 09:52 PM, said:

I'm an Atheist myself, together with 85% with the rest of my class. the strange thing is, I'm on a christian school, we have two hours of religion in a week, and almost every teacher on our school believes in God. however, from the people who I know from my school -- which are quite a lot -- almost none of them don't believe, or don't really care. I don't flame on God, or say stupid things towards him or the religion, I just don't really... do anything about it. I tried becoming religious many times in my life, but how much I tried, it never worked. an important fact for my Atheisme is that everybody knows that Dinosaurs lived millions of years before the human did. how can God have created things in 7 days then (Not a flaming sentence)?

He IS God, he can do anything, he could level a mountain in the blink of an eye.

Agatio, on Jun 7 2005, 11:20 PM, said:

Apparantly the 7 days, as with a lot of the bible, is metaphorical, so the 7 days could have been 7 billion years or something like that. My dad is a keen Christian so I pick up stuff like that from time to time.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, but the bible clearly states that the earth has only been around for about 10,000 years. Thats why when scientists were calculating how much dust was on the moons surface, they way over calculated, there wasn't nearly as much dust on the moon as they thought there was. And if your curious about why they tried calculating the amount of dust on the moon, then I'll tell you. It was for the first manned flight moon mission. they knew that there was dust on the moons surface, and they needed to know how long to make the legs on the moon lander.

Mathak Kraven, on Jun 8 2005, 04:36 AM, said:

Then I wouldn't want to go to heaven, right, sleeping for 1000 years with no food.

But I agree with Agatio, I so despice those Jehovah's witnessess, trying to convert me when I'm at my home watching TV or playing a game, telling me whatever I was doing was done by god. No way dude.

In heaven there is no need for food or sleep, there is no fighting, no disease, and it will be paradise. If any of you end up there, you will understand. That is if you don't trust the bible, which I DEFINATLEY do.

[Toasty64]

Agatio, on Jan 28 2006, 01:30 AM, said:

How can religion contradict science? Science uses proof, facts, and hard evidence to explain what makes the earth, our bodies, and nature tick.

Religion (primarily christianity) simply says that god wills it to happen, and it happens, with no hard evidence to back it up.

Because of this, you need 'faith' to be able to follow and believe in that religons ways. With science, you get the facts, and you're on your merry way, with religion, you need faith to be able to believe that one almighty being makes everything happen.

There are many facts to back up what the bible(Christianity) says. Like the dead sea scrolls. Archiologists have also reported that Noahs Ark has been found frozen into a sweedish mountain and the bible states that his ark did land on a mountan as the water receded.

Agatio, on Jun 8 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Which brings us to the bible. A book, just a book. I think the Christians merely made this up as a means of gathering followers. I doubt the a super-being told someone, who apparantly lived 1000 years, to write a bunch of laws, and about the creation of the earth. This seems so completely far-fetched for me. Another factor of me giving up my faith.

Like I said earlier, there is plenty of proof to back up what the bible is saying.

[Someone Else]

Again your replied to a year old post...

[Toasty64]

Neo_Genesis, on Jun 8 2005, 05:43 AM, said:

The bible was written by very much people who believed in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
that brings me to another religious subject:
the Christian religion is stated as a monotheisme, but the Moslems say it isn't. in their book, Jesus is also a character, but he is mentioned as a profet, not God's son. they say the Christian religion isn't a monotheisme, because we believe in three "Gods". first of all we believe in The God, the creator. second we believe in his son, Jesus Christ. and last, we believe in the Holy spirit. I think the Moslems have a point with that.

Yes, but the other two(Jesus and the holyspirit) are not gods. The Holy spirit is said in the bible to live inside of us, while Jesus is his son, but if your Christian, you don't pray to Jesus, you pray to God. For Christianism to be polytheistic, Christians (like myself) would have to pray to more than just God.

Wind Dude, on Jan 28 2006, 09:51 AM, said:

Again your replied to a year old post...

Ya, but this time there's no new info, I have the right to add to a year old post. And I meant to do that.

This post has been edited by Toasty64: 28 January 2006 - 05:15 PM

[Eugine]

http://www.av1611.org/rock.html

Opinion?

[Someone Else]

I skimmed a lot of that crap.

Anyways, apparently that's a 1995 page.

You should know, a lot of rockers back then weren't quite right in the head. And besides, people should be more concerned with RAP anyway. Rap is much more of a lifestyle than Rock is.

Agatio will probabaly give more rantage over that page. XP

[Eugine]

Well, RAP has more of HUMAN violence which can easily be corrected. SPIRITUAL violence on the other hand... Once you're on the wrong path... It's lifetime.

Why you ask? You sell your soul to the Devil for pleasure and HUMANLY comforts... If you try to get back your soul... He can easily take it away from you permanently.

[Someone Else]

Well, I don't believe in the "Devil". >.>; It's much more likely that "God" exists in my opinion.

So my views contradict that entirely.

[Zxor]

Does anyone think that Halloween is a "Devil's" holiday. If so, tell me why.
Btw, WD, are you saying you don't believe in God?

[Eugine]

But if the devil do not exist, it will contradict nature. There is no good without evil; yang without yin; heaven without hell.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 30 January 2006 - 12:56 AM

[pHantOm]

Eugine, on Jan 29 2006, 06:56 PM, said:

SPIRITUAL violence on the other hand... Once you're on the wrong path... It's lifetime.

*SIGH*
This is the kind of belief that angers me about religion, it is your belief that everyone is wrong that doesnt accept/conform to your style. I am not a devil worshiper, it is my belief that the devil exists and I am to do what is morally correct by my own standards to keep myself in what I believe, infinite burning in hell. But, I have had engaged in sexual activity with a partner before marriage. Against my catholic belief. I masturbate and dont tell a kiddy fiddler priest that I do so in "confession", another sin. Am I pervert for masturbation? No, simply an act of human nature especially in males. Where we have had to supress our sexual activity to less than what nature wants us to. You lie, and commit all types of sins everyday. It is your belief that only specific ones matter, then what are the point of these other rules? The philosophy of religion is out of wack, and unfit for our advanced civilization that we know of today.

As for scientific evidence, Noahs arc was in a dark dingy cave under a mountain!?!? LMFAO Sounds like someone told some dude to go find it, and when he goes hunting for it they laugh behind his back. Show me an arc please, an arc THAT CAN FIT EVERY FREAKING MAMMAL, INSECT, AND REPTILE ON EARTH. :P OMG Fairy tale anyone!?!?!?! That "legend" or "story" in my belief was made up to keep civilization living in a mild state of fear of dying. Showing God isnt afraid to wipe us all off the face of the Earth. So please enlighten me on this evidence.

[Eugine]

Of course you cannot compare sins like lusting to murder. That's why God said he just each human depending on the crime he commited. Each person will experience different punishments.

Also, please do your research before you make silly comments like this. The arc did not hole EVERY animal in existance. It hold pairs of each aniaml, a male and female counterpart. Let me run through this.
Aquatic animals are out of the scene because they can survive in the water.
Plants can be replanted after the the flood; and who knows, maybe there were many more plants before the flood.
Many of micro-organisms can survive in water also, so that's out.
Macro organisms can be found on animals such as cows and such. Plus, it isn't that hard to collect macro organisms and store them on the ship.
Reptiles can live on both land and sea if you're wondering. Now that's covered the only organism to really pay attention to was the mammals (excluding the whales). It isn't that hard to collect two pairs of each mammal.
Birds can be easily collected and protected by God. Remember, the flood was really aimed for humans, so God could have protected any other animal if he ever see fit.

If there's other animals I forgot please tell me.

Anyway, on to the arc. The arc took 120 years to be constructed, and remember back then people lived very long because of this:

Quote

There have been many speculations concerning the great length of human life spans before the Flood, such as the earth having a thick water vapor canopy that blocked out most of the sun's harmful radiation, or double atmospheric pressure that enhanced the health of all organic life. The Bible, however, does not directly explain why this was or why life spans shortened after the Flood.

Is there any ship in modern history which took this long to be made? No.
Finally, the arc was made under God's guidance and strength.

Any other question?

[Sea of Time]

Eugine, on Jan 29 2006, 05:30 PM, said:

http://www.av1611.org/rock.html

Opinion?

The page is definitely interesting and in some ways, true. However, since it is a 1995 page, the rock decade of the 80's is still fresh in the author's mind. I don't think rock music today is as much promoting satan as it was in the 80's (or early 90's). Is Satan present in rock music? Yes, and it always will be, but is it always promoting Satan? I would say not anymore.

And with that, I suppose I've thrown my hat into the religion debate.

This post has been edited by Sea_of_Time: 30 January 2006 - 02:38 PM

[pHantOm]

Eugine, on Jan 30 2006, 03:22 PM, said:

Of course you cannot compare sins like lusting to murder. That's why God said he just each human depending on the crime he commited. Each person will experience different punishments.

Also, please do your research before you make silly comments like this. The arc did not hole EVERY animal in existance. It hold pairs of each aniaml, a male and female counterpart. Let me run through this.
Aquatic animals are out of the scene because they can survive in the water.
Plants can be replanted after the the flood; and who knows, maybe there were many more plants before the flood.
Many of micro-organisms can survive in water also, so that's out.
Macro organisms can be found on animals such as cows and such. Plus, it isn't that hard to collect macro organisms and store them on the ship.
Reptiles can live on both land and sea if you're wondering. Now that's covered the only organism to really pay attention to was the mammals (excluding the whales). It isn't that hard to collect two pairs of each mammal.
Birds can be easily collected and protected by God. Remember, the flood was really aimed for humans, so God could have protected any other animal if he ever see fit.

If there's other animals I forgot please tell me.

Anyway, on to the arc. The arc took 120 years to be constructed, and remember back then people lived very long because of this:
Is there any ship in modern history which took this long to be made? No.
Finally, the arc was made under God's guidance and strength.

Any other question?

Once again with the assumption

"Finally, the arc was made under God's guidance and strength."

OK, so 1 person out of the entire world is spoken to by God. Put this in context nowadays, what would you think of this man? The same as me, crazy. Once again I please ask, show me proof of existance other than speculation. I have plenty of evidence that suggests the opposite of what you are telling me, and I will bring it to the table after you show me something conclusive other than an opinion on age, something I didnt even bring up.

[Sea of Time]

God knew back then the same as he does now. If you were to think that that man was crazy, you would be swept away in the flood, just like the non-believers back then. The world was filled with sin, so God made a plan. Only the true believers survived and the world practically started over again.

[Eugine]

Oh my! It's a Bible story, obviously I'd include GOD in it!

[pHantOm]

Toast posted saying there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting Gods existance, i'm simply asking the followers of regilion to provide me with such material.

[Sea of Time]

There is theoretical scientific evidence, but there is no hard proof. It's all about faith, if you believe there is a God, then there is.

[pHantOm]

Sea_of_Time, on Jan 30 2006, 04:51 PM, said:

There is theoretical scientific evidence, but there is no hard proof. It's all about faith, if you believe there is a God, then there is.

OK

So my point is made, 5 posts later.

[Sea of Time]

There will always be things like the Lost Scrolls, or the apparently found Gospel of James, but they do not point to a definitive fact that there is a God. I believe with faith that there is a God, but I cannot explain to someone who is too stubborn to have faith with evidence.

[pHantOm]

Sea_of_Time, on Jan 30 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

but I cannot explain to someone who is too stubborn to have faith with evidence.

If people just accepted things as they were, we would still think the Earth was flat.

[Zxor]

Eugine, on Jan 30 2006, 02:55 AM, said:

But if the devil do not exist, it will contradict nature. There is no good without evil; yang without yin; heaven without hell.

I am not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying do you believe it is a devil's holiday.

[Eugine]

PFF. It's human nature to want to yearn knowledge. That's why there's economic development. When man ate the fruit of knowledge of good an evil, this thirst came into man.

[Mars Djinni]

pHantOm, on Jan 30 2006, 03:56 PM, said:

If people just accepted things as they were, we would still think the Earth was flat.

Technically, it's a different case with religion. There is proof that the earth is round. There is no proof that gives a straight answer that God exists or not. If ever there is proof, we have yet to discover it.

[Someone Else]

Actually there is proof the Earth is round like MD said. Ya go into space, ya see the Earth is round.

Anyhoo. I'm agnostic since there is no proof God exists. Nor is their proof that he DOESN'T exist. I lack "faith", so I point more towards God not existing than otherwise, however.

[Mars Djinni]

I might sound a bit... I don't know, sneaky or something. I lack a better word.

But anyway, I think "playing it safe" would be to live agnostically. Call me a man of little faith if you must, but I think that when we die, if there really IS a God, then we won't get into much trouble, but on the flipside, if there were no God at all, we knew that we didn't go wasting our time on the one life we had on earth.

Don't get me wrong, I still believe what I believe. I'm jsut thinking about it through a "neutral"perspective.

[Someone Else]

It's also much easier to say you're agnostic as opposed to atheist or whatnot. That way you don't get an elitist on your case as much.

[Zxor]

Proof, uh, miracles? But there are proof of evil, possesion...

[pHantOm]

The best way to put is

If you believe in religion, you are accepting that God is the creater and has an influence on your daily life. But why cant you just believe in God and not follow the religions rules? Why, because the whole point of religion is to scare and supress people into behaving. A good thing if you think about it, if there were no deterants of death. Anybody miserable will commit suicide, anybody desperate will commit suicide and anybody angry will kill someone else then themselves. Fear of a miserable afterlife is a good thing for mankind, because are we horrible to one another.

[Toasty64]

There is evidence that god exists. I'm surprised that after I've told you AND gave you proof that you still don't believe me. That news about the ark being found frozen in a mountain in Europe was disscussed alot in my social studies class at school last year. And my school is a PUBLIC school. On top of that, the only way that you could possibly say that the dead sea scrolls don't exist is if you didn't watch the news special that was on last summer that lasted for a WEEK. I'm not trying to convert anyone to christianity, even though I'd like those of you who don't believe to, I'm just saying that to deny PHYSICAL PROOF that he does exist is like saying that there's no such thing as oxygen(which you already know you need to survive).

[Enoch]

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a bit, all the evidence you mentioned dousn't supply the nature of god, more or less it gives proof that those people who worshiped god existed back then. Like moses actualy existed, and there is documaneted proof of that. because it is taken from several ancient records, including Egyptian writ. And Joseph actualy existed, and is talked about in the sea scrolls and in egyptian hyroglyphics as well. And there is physical evidence that Jesus lived on earth way back when, but it's only if you believe that he is the savior, that would set you apart.

But I still believe that god exists. I feel that that kinda self revelation needs to come from god himself. wether it be a warming of soul, or a burning of spirit, or if you are lucky enough to speak one on one with the big man himself. To be honest, I believe that I have felt that burning of spirit, and can attest to it right here and now.

[Toasty64]

I'm not quite sure what you meant, but I'm glad you believe.

[Laharl]

my compliments to American Christians, lets kick Darwinism off the cyllabus in favour of creationism and then wonder why we're so stupid

[el_Sethro]

Enoch, on Jan 31 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

Moses actualy existed, and there is documaneted proof of that. because it is taken from several ancient records, including Egyptian writ.

I'm not so sure about this. It was my understanding that there was absolutely no evidence that Moses existed, or even that the Egyptians ever had Hebrews as slaves. They also found it curious that a people wandering the desert for 40 years would not leave any archeological evidence.

I don't know about the rest of the examples you gave.

Quote

There is evidence that god exists. I'm surprised that after I've told you AND gave you proof that you still don't believe me. That news about the ark being found frozen in a mountain in Europe was disscussed alot in my social studies class at school last year. And my school is a PUBLIC school. On top of that, the only way that you could possibly say that the dead sea scrolls don't exist is if you didn't watch the news special that was on last summer that lasted for a WEEK. I'm not trying to convert anyone to christianity, even though I'd like those of you who don't believe to, I'm just saying that to deny PHYSICAL PROOF that he does exist is like saying that there's no such thing as oxygen(which you already know you need to survive).

You haven't given proof. I did a few google searches, and didn't find anything about the ark being found in a swedish mountain, but I did find this Christian site which admits that despite several supposed "sightings" of the ark, there is no proof of its existance, and many of the sightings contradict each other, not always agreeing that the ark is even on the same place on the mountain.

as for the Dead Sea scrolls, I won't argue that they don't exist, but I'm really not convinced that they prove anything. like Enoch said, they just prove that the PEOPLE who worshipped god existed, not that god himself exists

and i seem to remember someone back a few posts saying that because Aquatic animals and reptiles could swim, and birds could fly, so they wouldn't need to be on the ark, I'm not going to even begin to say why that is so wrong. look at this webpage; it pretty much explain why the whole ark thing is impossible.

Look people, the whole point of religion is FAITH. Science and Religion can never agree, because science uses evidence, and religion uses faith. If you are truely faithful, you will believe no matter what the evidence says. So don't pretend that there is reliable evidence (or even more rediculous, proof) to support the bible. There just isn't. If you are truely Christian, you don't need it. I'm not saying that Science can prove that there isn't a god, but you can't use science to prove that there is one, either.

[Eugine]

First of all, laharl. They want both intelligent design and evolution to be taught.

Secondly, el sentro. Noah's arc may not be proven scientifically, but remember this is a Bible story! It was GOD who brought about the flooding.
"THROUGH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!"

[Elliott]

The wreck of a ship in a mountain is not nearly suffience proof of the existance of a higher divine being that created the universe. And neither are some old scrolls. Anyone who would take this as hard evidence to base their faith must be pretty gullible.

[Someone Else]

Eugine, on Feb 2 2006, 02:08 PM, said:

First of all, laharl. They want both intelligent design and evolution to be taught.

Secondly, el sentro. Noah's arc may not be proven scientifically, but remember this is a Bible story! It was GOD who brought about the flooding.
"THROUGH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!"

And God exists? :blink: That post was kinda pointless, your only back-up was that God can make anything happen.

*still agnostic, nevertheless*

[Mars Djinni]

Even to me that sounded a little too dependant on the truth about God. During debates like these, I think it would be a bit more reasonable to have a neutral view over things. This "through God all things are possible" is what I sometimes refuse to believe. It's.... too much to cover up our inexperience in the beginning.

[Laharl]

Eugine, on Feb 2 2006, 10:08 PM, said:

First of all, laharl. They want both intelligent design and evolution to be taught.

Secondly, el sentro. Noah's arc may not be proven scientifically, but remember this is a Bible story! It was GOD who brought about the flooding.
"THROUGH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!"

there's a plane wreck in the sea GOD MUST EXIST! oh wait it's plane that's just crashed and the christians on board have just been betrayed by their 'god'.

[Eugine]

When I said about God, I meant you can't really say it's not true using the Bible. After all, it is a Bible Story. Since Christians believe God caused the flooding, no science can explain how he did it. He's trillion of years ahead of our knowledge.

And Agatio, last time I checked out of the 6.4 billion people alive now only 17% of the population is actually "Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist". Humans must be that gullible. :blink:

[el_Sethro]

Eugine, on Feb 2 2006, 07:38 PM, said:

Secondly, el sentro. Noah's arc may not be proven scientifically, but remember this is a Bible story! It was GOD who brought about the flooding.
"THROUGH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!"

Quote

When I said about God, I meant you can't really say it's not true using the Bible. After all, it is a Bible Story. Since Christians believe God caused the flooding, no science can explain how he did it. He's trillion of years ahead of our knowledge.

Thank you, exactly. You believe in Noah's Ark because of Faith, despite the lack of proof. It's the people who are trying to convert everyone they see who annoy me: they know that the only way to convert skeptical people like myself is to prove scientifically that there is a god, which kinda defeats the purpose of the whole FAITH part.

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Feb 4 2006, 06:22 AM, said:

And Agatio, last time I checked out of the 6.4 billion people alive now only 17% of the population is actually "Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist". Humans must be that gullible. :blink:

Yes, they are. Following a religion and having a faith in something that has absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up. And giving 10% of their earning to an organisation that claims to use the money for their 'god' when really they're using it to convert other unkowing and gullible people into their cult.

[Toasty64]

el_Sethro, on Feb 2 2006, 08:42 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about this. It was my understanding that there was absolutely no evidence that Moses existed, or even that the Egyptians ever had Hebrews as slaves. They also found it curious that a people wandering the desert for 40 years would not leave any archeological evidence.

I don't know about the rest of the examples you gave.You haven't given proof. I did a few google searches, and didn't find anything about the ark being found in a swedish mountain, but I did find this Christian site which admits that despite several supposed "sightings" of the ark, there is no proof of its existance, and many of the sightings contradict each other, not always agreeing that the ark is even on the same place on the mountain.

as for the Dead Sea scrolls, I won't argue that they don't exist, but I'm really not convinced that they prove anything. like Enoch said, they just prove that the PEOPLE who worshipped god existed, not that god himself exists

and i seem to remember someone back a few posts saying that because Aquatic animals and reptiles could swim, and birds could fly, so they wouldn't need to be on the ark, I'm not going to even begin to say why that is so wrong. look at this webpage; it pretty much explain why the whole ark thing is impossible.

Look people, the whole point of religion is FAITH. Science and Religion can never agree, because science uses evidence, and religion uses faith. If you are truely faithful, you will believe no matter what the evidence says. So don't pretend that there is reliable evidence (or even more rediculous, proof) to support the bible. There just isn't. If you are truely Christian, you don't need it. I'm not saying that Science can prove that there isn't a god, but you can't use science to prove that there is one, either.

OK, well I remeber where it was reported now, it was a turkish mountain, and it was gods will that melted the ice on that mountain so we could see and truly believe that the Ark was real, furthering our trust in god. Global warming (stupid idiotic, but mabey true theory) might have had something to do with it, but it was gods will that allowed global warming to happen, Part of his master plan. And for those of you who don't believe and are purpousefully pushing christianity away, just remember that when the rapture comes, there's still a chance to convert. And yes now I am purposefully trying to convert you. AND FOR THE LOVE OF PETE YOU BLIND IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS PHYSICAL PROOF HE EXISTS SO BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STUBBORNESS OF SOME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

[pHantOm]

Toasty64, on Feb 4 2006, 12:36 AM, said:

AND FOR THE LOVE OF PETE YOU BLIND IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS PHYSICAL PROOF HE EXISTS SO BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STUBBORNESS OF SOME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

Saying there is and actually bring such "evidence" to the table are two serperate things. Perhaps you should actually back up what you say instead of just hoping we will actually believe your words over our already self convinced theory.

[Laharl]

Toasty64, on Feb 4 2006, 05:36 AM, said:

AND FOR THE LOVE OF PETE YOU BLIND IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS PHYSICAL PROOF HE EXISTS SO BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STUBBORNESS OF SOME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

And here comes the christian oppression again, are you gonna persecute us we don't believe? Notice how no other faith tries to encourage people whoi aren't interested to their faith, not the buddists or even the muslims, only christians. God exists because you say so? Not a very convincing arguement is it?

[Eugine]

He sounds like you eh' laharl? (read back on your Christian bashing posts if you don't believe me).

Also, your post is totally wrong, you know how many Buddism book I have in my house? Don't you see the Middle East having war against other countries (Isarel) to get back their land? Don't you see the Chinese government opressing the people so they can only practice Buddism? Other religions have to be "undergrown". Don't you see the Wiccans putting curses on you when you believe in another God?

What do you see modern day Christians doing? They only use the Media and advertisments.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 04 February 2006 - 05:34 AM

[el_Sethro]

Toasty64, on Feb 4 2006, 03:06 AM, said:

OK, well I remeber where it was reported now, it was a turkish mountain, and it was gods will that melted the ice on that mountain so we could see and truly believe that the Ark was real, furthering our trust in god. Global warming (stupid idiotic, but mabey true theory) might have had something to do with it, but it was gods will that allowed global warming to happen, Part of his master plan. And for those of you who don't believe and are purpousefully pushing christianity away, just remember that when the rapture comes, there's still a chance to convert. And yes now I am purposefully trying to convert you. AND FOR THE LOVE OF PETE YOU BLIND IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS PHYSICAL PROOF HE EXISTS SO BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STUBBORNESS OF SOME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

I find it sooo ironic that you are calling me stubborn...

look, this proof you're talking about just isn't there. No amount of typing in bold, capital, underlined letters can change that.

[Laharl]

lol, but the undrlining makes it so much more authorative <sarcasm>

[Mars Djinni]

Toasty64, on Feb 3 2006, 10:36 PM, said:

OK, well I remeber where it was reported now, it was a turkish mountain, and it was gods will that melted the ice on that mountain so we could see and truly believe that the Ark was real, furthering our trust in god. Global warming (stupid idiotic, but mabey true theory) might have had something to do with it, but it was gods will that allowed global warming to happen, Part of his master plan. And for those of you who don't believe and are purpousefully pushing christianity away, just remember that when the rapture comes, there's still a chance to convert. And yes now I am purposefully trying to convert you. AND FOR THE LOVE OF PETE YOU BLIND IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS PHYSICAL PROOF HE EXISTS SO BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STUBBORNESS OF SOME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

Do you have any other proof? If you are meaning to convert people, then it's hopeless trying. It's what most members here emphasized that they hated about religion. Global warming is being caused by a hole in the ozone, created only because of our own actions. Our exhaust is ripping the Ozone apart, it's been said many times. And note, you said "gods". If you are truly Christian, you would have said otherwise.

[Elliott]

Like someone said earlier, the boat, the scrolls, and any other phyisical 'proof' you can show only proves that those who believed in God existed, not that God himself exists. And you call us stubborn? Am I stubborn because I base my beliefs in scientific facts and documentation? I would have thought the one steadfast in beliefs based on a book thousands of years old would be the stubborn one...

@ Eugine: media, advertisments, and wankers on forums.

[pHantOm]

Eugine, on Feb 4 2006, 06:31 AM, said:

He sounds like you eh' laharl? (read back on your Christian bashing posts if you don't believe me).

Also, your post is totally wrong, you know how many Buddism book I have in my house? Don't you see the Middle East having war against other countries (Isarel) to get back their land? Don't you see the Chinese government opressing the people so they can only practice Buddism? Other religions have to be "undergrown". Don't you see the Wiccans putting curses on you when you believe in another God?

What do you see modern day Christians doing? They only use the Media and advertisments.

Francesca put it best


http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6360/alooklolcopy13jb.jpg

[Eugine]

:S, I don't get that Phantom.

[Toasty64]

Mars Djinni, on Feb 4 2006, 10:27 AM, said:

Do you have any other proof? If you are meaning to convert people, then it's hopeless trying. It's what most members here emphasized that they hated about religion. Global warming is being caused by a hole in the ozone, created only because of our own actions. Our exhaust is ripping the Ozone apart, it's been said many times. And note, you said "gods". If you are truly Christian, you would have said otherwise.

I meant God has.

[pHantOm]

Eugine, on Feb 4 2006, 07:29 PM, said:

:S, I don't get that Phantom.

You just posted about all the fights and **** religion causes, which you posted as if it was a good thing. And just the overall outlook on it, I found simly obserd.

[Eugine]

The thing is, you don't see modern day Christians doing these stuff. I base my life on ONE religion: Christianity... Well, I believe in Karma to an extent.

Nowadays, war is more about humans hunger for power and land, not religious beliefs.

[Andross]

Eugine, on Feb 4 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

:S, I don't get that Phantom.

I began ROFLing and LMAOing right then :blink:

Toasty: You have no right to an opinion if you have the audacity to call the entire theory around global warming phony. In fact...

/punch

This topic consistently shows me ignorance and abrasiveness from the religious side. I guess there's no such thing as a moderate "believer" anymore. Damn zealots, ruining it for us reform Jews...