[pHantOm]

Eugine, on Feb 5 2006, 05:18 AM, said:

The thing is, you don't see modern day Christians doing these stuff. I base my life on ONE religion: Christianity... Well, I believe in Karma to an extent.

Nowadays, war is more about humans hunger for power and land, not religious beliefs.

these things*

You have to realize, that Christianity is VERY self absorbed. I'm Catholic, and have gone to catholic masses so I know what i'm talking about. As for the wars....hmmm the terrorist bombed us because they dont like the United States because of our beliefs on human life. And because we are the "center of evil" because we dont force our wives to wear cloaks and hide themselves. I am HIGHLY against the muslims belief on human rights, and they are just as against me on my beliefs. But im sorry, I would never treat the woman I love by forcing her to for the most part, be a slave to my every whim. I believe in freedom, and do what my heart tells me to. Not a faith that is based on false pretenses.

[Eugine]

Actually, if you really want to see Christianity at it's best I suggest you go to another church. Go to a 7th day church or a Pentecostal. I'm not saying Catholics are bad, but the way they base their Christianity is sometimes rarely found in the Bible.
But trust me, there are some great Catholics, some which are more Christian than me, and it's what you truely believes so God wouldn't chastise you just because you go to a Catholic church.

You should do some research. They sort of merged the Christian faith with the Roman pegan beliefs. I'm not too keen on this subject so sorry.

[Golden Legacy]

Take it from an entirely different angle. If scientific knowledge is the basis of your beliefs, then tell me, are you yourself content in leaving your existence up to random chance? Yes, this brings up the issue of Evolution vs. Intelligent Design and whatnot, but if you accept scientific theories as the sole guidance in your life, then how do you explain your very existence?

Put it this way; basing it on scientific knowledge only, the cosmos has been around for 14~15 billion years. There is no such entity as a "soul", for in death, that's it. It's over, your very existence ceases.

I am only asking you to conisder this; are you content, ready, and willing to accept all this?

[Someone Else]

Certainly. When I'm close to death, I'd hope my life has been a very fulfilling one and therefore, if it has been fulfilling, I'm ready to cease my existance entirely. I don't want to go to an "afterlife" if my life has been fulfilled, because I'm ready to stop living. :huh:

[pHantOm]

Golden Legacy, on Feb 6 2006, 07:23 PM, said:

Put it this way; basing it on scientific knowledge only, the cosmos has been around for 14~15 billion years. There is no such entity as a "soul", for in death, that's it. It's over, your very existence ceases.

I am only asking you to conisder this; are you content, ready, and willing to accept all this?

Sounds alot better than the Christian belief, in which if you dont follow guidelines that fit the religion you will spend eternity in burning hell.

Actually, if you really want to see Christianity at it's best I suggest you go to another church. Go to a 7th day church or a Pentecostal.

So now there are better Christians, even within your own religion you have disputes on how the religion is preached, and how the information...or lack there of is interpreted.

[Eugine]

Uh... Not really.

You said you've visited Catholic masses in which the people where "VERY self absorbed". So in essence you're saying Catholics are scratch out from your list.
So I replied, why not visit other Christianity churches in which Christianity is at its best, at its best I mean that the churches are much more involved for young Children. You want to return to receive the knowledge they give you. They just don't splash it into your face; they give you it with entertainment and such. Catholics you can say are for more of the traditional Christians, the other divisions I listed have concerts - Rock, Rap, all of the sorts but its Christian music of course. Trust me it rocks.

And I specifically said you can’t be a better Christian because you visit a 7th Day church. It truly comes down to your belief in God. They're probably million of those people who visit that church but aren't nearly good Christians I bet.

OR, you can do like me and don't visit any Church but read the Bible at home and research information you'd like to know on the internet and watch Christian shows.

[Golden Legacy]

pHantOm, on Feb 7 2006, 04:11 AM, said:

Sounds alot better than the Christian belief, in which if you dont follow guidelines that fit the religion you will spend eternity in burning hell.

Actually, if you really want to see Christianity at it's best I suggest you go to another church. Go to a 7th day church or a Pentecostal.

So now there are better Christians, even within your own religion you have disputes on how the religion is preached, and how the information...or lack there of is interpreted.

If you'll realize, in all my arguments, I have never once actually given a point about a specific faith. I am not trying to impose any particular faith, be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. But what I am saying is that without faith, there doesn't appear to be (at least from my perspective) any morals, any ethics, any point to existence.

Are you content in just saying that your life is just another meaningless, random existence? At least in the traditional belief in God, and a heaven and hell, you have something to strive for. You have some sort of goal, some purpose that invokes in you the will to live. Otherwise, what does it all matter? What is the point to your conscious, the very actions you choose to do? It's all for naught, all for an eventual end.

[Elliott]

I have goals, and morals, and no religion.

Despite what you say, your are being judgemental and bias in saying that without religion these things don't exist. I plan to get married, raise a family, make money, and have a fullfilling life in whatever it may be that I end up doing. I don't need some religion that requires faith in something I don't believe exists to have meaning in my life, I find my own meaning. And I have morals too. Sure they will differ from yours, but morals are a matter of opinion, and I don't need religion telling me how to live my life to have morals either.

From your perspecitve my life is meaningless, from mine I will find my own meaning without religion.

And you (religious people) all come back to the same brick wall argument.

You: You need faith!
Us: Why?
You: You just do!
Us: ...

* That's not just based on the arguments of people on the forum, it applies for school and other religious people I have come into contact with.

[Golden Legacy]

Nicely argued, Agatio. However, consider it from another perspective; on what standard do your morals exist? Yes, you very well have the capability to decide what's right and what's wrong, but there is nothing to limit, or rather, guide a person to his own beliefs in that sense.

The morals of one person will differ than another's. What one may perceive as evil and callous may be fairly trivial and even encouraged in the perspective of another. These conflicting ideals cannot exist without conflict, and therein lies religion in another sense; by providing a set of ideals, of morals, of ethics, there exists now the innate human concept of limitation; that one cannot simply preach beyond certain boundaries, that there is in fact a distinction between right and wrong, and this line exists for all, equally and universally.

[Andross]

Society bases its morals upon established law. Law comes from the need for people to have a government which protects their basic/natural rights. Those natural rights are freedoms of expression and a right to pursue happiness. When those rights are infringed upon, justice is expected in order to ensure the wrongdoer is acknowledged and the victim is given reperations. Thus, society bases morals upon the idea of what a person believes happiness, freedom, and liberty to be (the natural lights we expect to be protected; laws are based on moral values). Some may argue these morals come from religion, but others may argue they don't. Both have valid points. In my personal opinion, religion isn't the sole dictator of morals in the end of it all, as you can gather morals from personal insight. Religion has its influences, but it certainly doesn't have that much of an extensive control over every aspect of moralistic views.

This post has been edited by Andross: 07 February 2006 - 08:40 PM

[My Best Wishes]

Agatio, if I recall correctly you attend a religious school? I just recently changed to a new school where the belief is 'christian science', i'm not entirely sure what they believe but each assembly (twice a week) they go off with all these happy clappy bible verses and thier own hymns. Now i'm religious but i just CANNOT stand these assemblies. Forcing what you believe down peoples throats is not called for. I believe you can share what you believe but don't force it.

Andross- I reckon that a good number of laws are inspired either by the bible or the ten commandants. Don't kill, steal, commit adultery etc etc etc. If you really think about it it's all common sense!

[Andross]

watch, on Feb 7 2006, 10:01 PM, said:

Agatio, if I recall correctly you attend a religious school? I just recently changed to a new school where the belief is 'christian science', i'm not entirely sure what they believe but each assembly (twice a week) they go off with all these happy clappy bible verses and thier own hymns. Now i'm religious but i just CANNOT stand these assemblies. Forcing what you believe down peoples throats is not called for. I believe you can share what you believe but don't force it.

Andross- I reckon that a good number of laws are inspired either by the bible or the ten commandants. Don't kill, steal, commit adultery etc etc etc. If you really think about it it's all common sense!

It's a fair arguement to say the ten commandments are a basis for many of modern laws. Which is sensible - it was technically the first codified set of laws if you think about it. But it is also fair to argue that most people wouldn't necessarily claim religion is the only thing that caused a law to be created forbidding the murder of others (as an example). It's common sense, of course - meaning that it probably would have been a law whether or not religion came about prior to such systems.

[Elliott]

Golden Legacy, on Feb 8 2006, 02:20 PM, said:

Nicely argued, Agatio. However, consider it from another perspective; on what standard do your morals exist? Yes, you very well have the capability to decide what's right and what's wrong, but there is nothing to limit, or rather, guide a person to his own beliefs in that sense.

The morals of one person will differ than another's. What one may perceive as evil and callous may be fairly trivial and even encouraged in the perspective of another. These conflicting ideals cannot exist without conflict, and therein lies religion in another sense; by providing a set of ideals, of morals, of ethics, there exists now the innate human concept of limitation; that one cannot simply preach beyond certain boundaries, that there is in fact a distinction between right and wrong, and this line exists for all, equally and universally.

My morals exist on the standard of what I perceive as right or wrong. I see drinking as fine, though not excessivley, sex outside as marriage as fine, though use of protection should be used, and basically following the law to the best of my ability. If you think my morals are wrong, go **** yourself, I don't care.

That second paragraph basically says "everyone has their own morals". :huh:

[pHantOm]

watch, on Feb 7 2006, 11:01 PM, said:

commit adultery

Is that an official law? I thought it was just a unwritten rule that the spouse has maximum divorce benifits if it occurs.

Laws are there to keep society in line, Religion is there to answer the question of why we are all here, and guide us to a good afterlife. Personally, religion has -10% influence on my life, as it makes my life worse than if it wasnt here at all. And I believe the same goes for the world, it is the consequences of this world that people fear.

[el_Sethro]

Golden Legacy, on Feb 6 2006, 09:53 PM, said:

Take it from an entirely different angle. If scientific knowledge is the basis of your beliefs, then tell me, are you yourself content in leaving your existence up to random chance? Yes, this brings up the issue of Evolution vs. Intelligent Design and whatnot, but if you accept scientific theories as the sole guidance in your life, then how do you explain your very existence?

Put it this way; basing it on scientific knowledge only, the cosmos has been around for 14~15 billion years. There is no such entity as a "soul", for in death, that's it. It's over, your very existence ceases.

I am only asking you to conisder this; are you content, ready, and willing to accept all this?

how do I explain my existance? I don't. I have no way of knowing how I came to be and I almost certainly never will. but just because Science cannot provide an explination, that doesn't mean that the ONLY alternative is that there must be a god.

am I content with the scientific explination? that really doesn't matter, as whether or not I am content won't change reality. Anyway, it doesn't bother me. and it makes a LOT more sense to me than the Christian explination.

As for morals, I am an extremely moral person. I am nice to others, I don't do drugs, I don't have sex, and I try not to lie. I don't think that as many laws are based on the ten commandments as you think; they're mostly common sense. it doesn't take a deity-inspired prophet to realize that a society cannot function if everyone is stealing and killing.

[Golden Legacy]

Agatio, on Feb 8 2006, 06:25 AM, said:

My morals exist on the standard of what I perceive as right or wrong. I see drinking as fine, though not excessivley, sex outside as marriage as fine, though use of protection should be used, and basically following the law to the best of my ability. If you think my morals are wrong, go **** yourself, I don't care.

That second paragraph basically says "everyone has their own morals". :huh:

First of all, Agatio, I have never insulted your morals. Yes, in the Drinking topic, I have stated that our morals conflict, and that perhaps, from someone from my perspective, you would seem to lack those ethics. However, that is not the case, and I would appreciate it if you don't go around making these assumptions and having a go on everyone.

And secondly, you miss the point of that second paragraph (which again, you overlooked). People have different ideas of morals without religion; some people may choose to abide by society's laws, and others will completely go against it, because what they perceive as right and wrong is, again, different. Now, can this actually exist without conflict? If someone believes murder is acceptable, another that selling drugs to youngsters is perfectly ok, should they simply be accepted?

After all, according to your argument, everyone should express their own ideals and morals, no matter whether it may be wrong in the eyes of others.

And religion solves that, by providing the same guidance, a set standard for morals that all abide to. This way, what is right and what is wrong exists equally for all.

(And remember, society's laws are only adhered to an extent; the justice system has its flaws, as you very well know. Religion, on the other hand, affects an individual not only with his interactions within society but also for himself as a human being)

[Laharl]

Regular christians *fails to think of one in this thread* are fine, the ones blinded by their faith (like Eugine) and those who would try and convert me (like toasty 64) are just annoying. Most wars and conflict have their origins rooted in religion, really making a better world

[pHantOm]

"Golden Legacy
Disciple
********
Group: Moderator
Posts: 1666
Joined: 28-March 04
Member No.: 153
Gender: Male
Age: 16"

LOL so funny, and Golden Legacy you failed to recognize that the laws the government have put in place are universal. All religions believe in different things, including killing. Terrorists blow themselves up, for the good of thier religion. Believing "Alah" will praise them for killing themselves aswell as others. So please, spare me your ignorant bullshlt. A war is going on right now, because a group believes killing others is for the good of thier religion.

[Eugine]

Phantom, you're just saying this without any research or proof. Yes, Muslims believe in reincarnation. Yes, anyone will do anything for their God... but TRUE Muslims aren't the one who practice terrorism. It is those who are brainwashed by Osama and their government which carry out these acts.
Before you come to your analysis you should recognise that the Middle East are siding with America in clenzing those people. Osama is the Hitler for the Muslims, didn't you see many Christians being tricked the same way?

[Golden Legacy]

pHantOm, on Feb 9 2006, 09:07 AM, said:

"Golden Legacy
Disciple
********
Group: Moderator
Posts: 1666
Joined: 28-March 04
Member No.: 153
Gender: Male
Age: 16"

LOL so funny, and Golden Legacy you failed to recognize that the laws the government have put in place are universal. All religions believe in different things, including killing. Terrorists blow themselves up, for the good of thier religion. Believing "Alah" will praise them for killing themselves aswell as others. So please, spare me your ignorant bullshlt. A war is going on right now, because a group believes killing others is for the good of thier religion.

Eugine, on Feb 9 2006, 06:11 PM, said:

Phantom, you're just saying this without any research or proof. Yes, Muslims believe in reincarnation. Yes, anyone will do anything for their God... but TRUE Muslims aren't the one who practice terrorism. It is those who are brainwashed by Osama and their government which carry out these acts.
Before you come to your analysis you should recognise that the Middle East are siding with America in clenzing those people. Osama is the Hitler for the Muslims, didn't you see many Christians being tricked the same way?

Phantom, you would do well to heed Eugine's words, but first, a clarification. Muslims do not believe in reincarnation, but just as with Christians and Jews, believe in the concept of heaven and hell and of course, a God (known as Allah). And you are certainly correct that only the fundamentalist, extremists are the Muslims who are terrorists. Get this straight. The Islamic culture IS IN NO WAY responsible, but the result of a few extremists who believe they are doing this for God, under his whim. That claim is FALSE. No where in the Qu'ran, no where in Islamic doctrine is it taught ANY OF THAT, and you would do well to acknowledge that and not be the ignorant person you are.

Eugine put it in a very good way as well. Hitler? Mao? Stalin? Are you saying those totalitarian rulers did not have that same kind of fervor in their respective nations? They did, they had wide support, and they committed crimes just as horrible.

[Mars Djinni]

Coincidentally, I've been studying Islam for the past weeks. My teacher noted somethign about extremists going for terrorism. In my perspective, Islam is a pretty peaceful faith. I read through a copy of the Qu'ran in the school library and nowhere has it been said that terrorism is the way to go. As the story went, Muhammad went into a cave and received a divine intervention from Allah and showed him a way into a peaceful life. Hint, I said peaceful.

[pHantOm]

But they are still acting in the name of religion, I am aware that 98% of the civilization are with us in the name of fighting terrorism. I read many articles, perhaps this is a good guide to show that Im not an idiot, so please dont treat me like one.

http://www.apologeti...ex.org/s37.html

That is showing that they actually find suicide wrong, it was only added in later. Extremist or not they still act for religion

http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/202/300/moral...n1/Moseley.html

Heres your Al queda info-
http://www.policyrev...G02/harris.html


So please before calling me ignorant, ask me where I get my information. And my interpretation of such information.

[My Best Wishes]

Why? You are blantly coming out and saying that Muslims blow themsevles up because of thier religons. I am studying Islam at school and we JUST we to a mosque(sp?) and spoke to a Muslim lady who was born in Australia. No where in the Koran does it say killing is acceptable. It says something like death to the infidels but that was referring to the wars in THAT age. I'm sure that if MD has read the koran he could answer much better then I can.

[Eugine]

Phantom, yes you have a point about the terrorists using religion in their acts, but the majority of them only use Islam as their scapegoat.

True Muslims aren't voilent as far as I see, especially the muslims in English speaking countries. I have a Muslim neighbour and he's very peaceful and downright hate Osama for giving Islam a bad name.

So yes, terrorists use Islam to carry out their acts, but think not of them as *true* Muslims, just think of them as the Hitler.

[pHantOm]

watch, on Feb 9 2006, 11:05 PM, said:

Why? You are blantly coming out and saying that Muslims blow themsevles up because of thier religons. I am studying Islam at school and we JUST we to a mosque(sp?) and spoke to a Muslim lady who was born in Australia. No where in the Koran does it say killing is acceptable. It says something like death to the infidels but that was referring to the wars in THAT age. I'm sure that if MD has read the koran he could answer much better then I can.

Read my first link I proivided you, The Koran is actually AGAINST suicide. My main point in trying to make, is although the religion is peaceful, some followers have diverted away from that and in the name of religion, are killing. So please before you try and have a comeback at me, read the articles and read my input.

[Elliott]

I think we can all agree religion is the cause of many problems, issues, and troubles in todays society, and in the history of society. Kings who forced their entire peoples to convert, holy wars, the infamous crusaded etc. etc. and today with the wars in the middle east, terrorism etc. Take religion out the picture, or make everyone atheist, and a lot of wars and problems would never have existed.

[pHantOm]

"Get this straight. The Islamic culture IS IN NO WAY responsible, but the result of a few extremists who believe they are doing this for God, under his whim. That claim is FALSE. No where in the Qu'ran, no where in Islamic doctrine is it taught ANY OF THAT, and you would do well to acknowledge that and not be the ignorant person you are."
-Golden Legacy

Well I got some news for you buddy


"To the question "Why do the terrorists hate us?" Americans could be pardoned for answering, "Why should we care?" The immediate reaction to the murder of 5,000 innocents is anger, not analysis. Yet anger will not be enough to get us through what is sure to be a long struggle. For that we will need answers. The ones we have heard so far have been comforting but familiar. We stand for freedom and they hate it. We are rich and they envy us. We are strong and they resent this. All of which is true. But there are billions of poor and weak and oppressed people around the world. They don't turn planes into bombs. They don't blow themselves up to kill thousands of civilians. If envy were the cause of terrorism, Beverly Hills, Fifth Avenue and Mayfair would have become morgues long ago. There is something stronger at work here than deprivation and jealousy. Something that can move men to kill but also to die.

Osama bin Laden has an answer--religion. For him and his followers, this is a holy war between Islam and the Western world. Most Muslims disagree. Every Islamic country in the world has condemned the attacks of Sept. 11. To many, bin Laden belongs to a long line of extremists who have invoked religion to justify mass murder and spur men to suicide. The words "thug," "zealot" and "assassin" all come from ancient terror cults--Hindu, Jewish and Muslim, respectively--that believed they were doing the work of God. The terrorist's mind is its own place, and like Milton's Satan, can make a hell of heaven, a heaven of hell. Whether it is the Unabomber, Aum Shinrikyo or Baruch Goldstein (who killed scores of unarmed Muslims in Hebron), terrorists are almost always misfits who place their own twisted morality above mankind's.

But bin Laden and his followers are not an isolated cult like Aum Shinrikyo or the Branch Davidians or demented loners like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber. They come out of a culture that reinforces their hostility, distrust and hatred of the West--and of America in particular. This culture does not condone terrorism but fuels the fanaticism that is at its heart. To say that Al Qaeda is a fringe group may be reassuring, but it is false. Read the Arab press in the aftermath of the attacks and you will detect a not-so-hidden admiration for bin Laden. Or consider this from the Pakistani newspaper The Nation:

"September 11 was not mindless terrorism for terrorism's sake. It was reaction and revenge, even retribution." Why else is America's response to the terror attacks so deeply constrained by fears of an "Islamic backlash" on the streets? Pakistan will dare not allow Washington the use of its bases. Saudi Arabia trembles at the thought of having to help us publicly. Egypt pleads that our strikes be as limited as possible. The problem is not that Osama bin Laden believes that this is a religious war against America. It's that millions of people across the Islamic world seem to agree."

-Newsweek

And since im so "ignorant" here is my source for this information:
http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/news...101501_why.html

[My Best Wishes]

My goodness, using the AMERICAN media for your facts.
Dude, they're extremists who have interpreted scripture to suit and justify their actions, nothing more, nothing less.

Did you know that recently a show aired over here that suggested that September 11 was executed by the US government? I didn't watch it but my cousin told me about it, the planes that hit the towers had no commercial markings, the 'plane' that 'hit' the Pentagon, where was the wreckage?
I don't know you and I don't know what you really think about it all but I’m not trying to piss you off here.

Agatio-I'll agree that false religions are to blame.

[Golden Legacy]

Agreed. I was about to say, the article you posted was, of course, heavily biased toward the Western demographic.

It's just as Watch said; just fundamentalists who've falsely interpreted the Qu'ran to their own preference, to justify their actions.

But if anything, a fair point must be made here; many nations (including some in the Middle East and elsewhere through the world) have disliked the United States strongly. And can you blame them, especially with our current president? But not to raise that issue...

Agatio, there are plenty of other motives other than religion for war. Have their been religious wars? Yes. But that does not mean that without religion, their would be no conflict. It's only fairly natural for their to be conflict, whether it is over territory, politics, defensive alliances, resources, etc.

[pHantOm]

Golden Legacy, on Feb 11 2006, 08:52 AM, said:

It's only fairly natural for their to be conflict, whether it is over territory, politics, defensive alliances, resources, etc.

Oh I definitally agree with you, a great example of this is North Korea. The point I have been trying to point out (and I thinkyou guys finally get it) is that even though, EVEN THOUGH terrorists are extremist, its still in the name of religion. I have no problems with people having faith in a religion, but I do have a problem when people lose common sense due to faith, which is kinda an oxymoron. Burned lol. Just think about it

A all powerful being created the Earth and the human race, he is not to be questioned and if so you will burn in an infinite firepit.

Ofcourse there is much more to it, but thats the jist of it, I think this is almost as crazy as Scientology.

[Golden Legacy]

pHantOm, on Feb 11 2006, 10:41 AM, said:

Oh I definitally agree with you, a great example of this is North Korea. The point I have been trying to point out (and I thinkyou guys finally get it) is that even though, EVEN THOUGH terrorists are extremist, its still in the name of religion. I have no problems with people having faith in a religion, but I do have a problem when people lose common sense due to faith, which is kinda an oxymoron. Burned lol. Just think about it

A all powerful being created the Earth and the human race, he is not to be questioned and if so you will burn in an infinite firepit.

Ofcourse there is much more to it, but thats the jist of it, I think this is almost as crazy as Scientology.

In the name of religion, yes, but who are the only ones who acknowledge that? Only the extremists.

And to summarize religion as that is really ignorace. The point of religion (we've argued this before) is guidance and faith, and also purpose. There, in this case, is an incentive not to do wrong, and to do right. People need some moral standards to adhere to, and religion provides it.

All right, let's see all those rehashed rebuttals again.

[Laharl]

Incentive to appease/impress an all mighty creator most likely. Examples - Medieval christains "we must slay the heathens or be smited". Modern day extremists "if i kill enough heathens Allah will reward me". Looking from a religious point of view, times haven't changed much, there's an illusion of greater freedom, but you go to the vatican and start preaching the Kuran and i'd like to see you leave in something or that a bodybag or police car

[Elliott]

This topic is going around in circles...

Person: "There is no proof of god."
Other Person: "You need faith!"

Today in the religious-ey class at school (compulsory :P ) I got called a pessimest because we were asked for arguments for and against the existance of god and I was providing things against. I just replied with "maybe so, but I just don't like to believe things that have no basis in fact". Religion is one of those things.

Even the class of about 30 people failed to provide any hard or even close to hard evidence supporting the existance of god. The dead sea scrolls got brought up, as well as people coming back to life and claiming to see heaven. But the former only proves the existance of religious people (not god) and the latter is most likely some guy wanting to make money off a story he threw together.

Doesn't the bible say "no living person has ever seen heaven". A guy on the news (some Aussie who was caputred in Iraq or something along those lines) who died and came back to life said "I have good news and bad news. The good news is there is no hell, and the bad news is there is no heaven". How can both these people be right?

(Wen I say 'dead' I mean their heart has stopped and they were brought back to life).

[pHantOm]

Agatio, on Feb 14 2006, 07:31 AM, said:

This topic is going around in circles...

Person: "There is no proof of god."
Other Person: "You need faith!"

Today in the religious-ey class at school (compulsory :P ) I got called a pessimest because we were asked for arguments for and against the existance of god and I was providing things against. I just replied with "maybe so, but I just don't like to believe things that have no basis in fact". Religion is one of those things.

Even the class of about 30 people failed to provide any hard or even close to hard evidence supporting the existance of god. The dead sea scrolls got brought up, as well as people coming back to life and claiming to see heaven. But the former only proves the existance of religious people (not god) and the latter is most likely some guy wanting to make money off a story he threw together.

Doesn't the bible say "no living person has ever seen heaven". A guy on the news (some Aussie who was caputred in Iraq or something along those lines) who died and came back to life said "I have good news and bad news. The good news is there is no hell, and the bad news is there is no heaven". How can both these people be right?

(Wen I say 'dead' I mean their heart has stopped and they were brought back to life).

I think you and I would get along really well in real life Agatio. :D

I have said pretty much all I need to say, and there is no more to add. It is evident that the members of faith will not admit to any weak segments of religion, and will continue thier effort to prove us wrong. I hope I have proved my intellegence, knowledge and understanding in this question of life. Aswell as show that I dont just sit and play MapleStory my entire life, when infact, it is only a very small fraction (if any now adays) of my life. Thank You for the very enjoyable discussion/debate on religion.

~Mark

[Neon]

Sounds like they're a bunch of hypocrites to me, lol.
They try to prove the existance of god and therefore the truth of the bible by saying that heaven exists because people have seen it, but the bible itself says that nobody who is alive can see it (so then the the bible's truth disagrees with the truth that proves it's truth making it's truth lies and the truth that disproves it's lies lies and the universe implodes killing everyone in it).

And before you try to correct me, they couldn't be 'dead' in the sense that the bible speaks of if you can bring them back to life <<.

This post has been edited by Neon: 14 February 2006 - 07:58 AM

[Eugine]

First of, the Bible says no one can see heaven and BE PART of the world anymore. Don't let anyone fool you; no one in modern day has seen heaven or hell and came back to tell us about it.

Secondly, the Bible is a story written by people INSPIRED by God. God spoke through them, he did not write it himself. So you can't really say the Bible IS proof that God exist. It is proof that people who believes in God exists (which is already proven since scientists have proven that the Bible account on history is relevant).

Now, how can we say God really exists using the Bible? We can eventhough it was written by men.
First of all, no normal human predicts, foretells the future or comes back to life after days of death. A higher specie (I'm not using being here so people can tell me anything)... A higher specie, meaning God is more developed AND advance that us humans - scientifically, emotionally, physically - anything name it.

[busy, will update]

[Elliott]

I reckon we would too Phantom.

I will take my leave from this topic also. The argument of whether or not God is real has been done to death, and no one has ever proved his existence, ever. It simply cannot be done unless he physically appeared before us today.

Let me just finish with saying, in the end, the answer will be revealed. Meaning that when we die we will finally know.

This post has been edited by Agatio: 15 February 2006 - 02:25 AM

[My Best Wishes]

And you have still failed to disprove his existence. There may be no 'hard' evidence to support mine/Eugine's/others arguments but there is no evidence other then "well if you can't prove it I must be right" to support you.

Believe me, depending on your life span you won't need to die before you know.

[Laharl]

or depending on what mental illness you have, "i can see god" no that's the dementia kicking in again

[Toasty64]

A while ago, about a year, my mom broght home a book she found at our christian book store in town. It is entirely true, not because I say so, but because researchers say so. This book is called "The Bible Code." It has proof in it that the bible actually predicted assasinations, but not directly. In the jewish bible, which is written so the words line up like in a word search puzzle ( I think), researchers have found predictions of numerous assasinations, and rises of dictators (Hitler). This was discovered after they decifered it with a code. I'm not sure if the code was reverse engineered or what, but if the code is accurate, than the bible would have predicted Hitler's rise to power hundred's of years before it happened. I'm not nessisarily saying that it's 100% correct, but if it is, than there is you're rock hard evidence IN THE BIBLE that God exists.

What do you think about that?

And about the last part of Agatio's last post, or WHEN the rapture comes.

This post has been edited by Toasty64: 18 February 2006 - 12:20 AM

[Someone Else]

...that's still a big IF. So you still haven't really given proof.

[Laharl]

Of course christians are going to see their deity exists or they wouldn't be christians, it's like being a pagangreek and not believing in the olympianian gods

[Elliott]

If you have no proof of god, then you have no proof of the rapture.

Toasty: you seem extremely blinded by your faith. And please, if your going to use this bible code theory to prove a god exists, then at least provide some examples, otherwise it's just all hearsay and conjecture.

[Eugine]

This may be out of line but I have a question. Why do non-believers always try to put themselves higher than religion or do EXACTLY what the religion says NOT to do?

Isn't there something fishy? Are you fueled by the antagonist of God? Agatio, you don't believe in the Bible yet you follow what it says NOT to do. Why is that? Remember the Church of Satan always use these symbols, "I › †". If you don't believe me do some research on "Church of Satan". Maybe you don't recognize it, but you're custom title IS religious, it's just not Christian, it's Satanic.

Well, if you did not realize this, just informing.

[Laharl]

anyone who's clever enough not to believe in god is clever enough to know there's no satan either

[My Best Wishes]

laharl the slayer, on Feb 19 2006, 08:02 AM, said:

anyone who's clever enough not to believe in god is clever enough to know there's no satan either

LMAO. I can't believe anyone is THAT stupid! Congrats Dullahan.

If you don't believe in god, fine, if you don't believe there's a Satan, lol you're ****ed.

[Toasty64]

I know it's not very clear but it was hard to get a focus.Anyway, on the left hand side the symbols are circled meaning that this is the next war. On the top right hand corner there are symbols that have boxes and diamonds around them, the first three symbols highlighted say "this person", skip two symbols after that and there are seven symbols indicating the exact name of the person, and then three more boxed symbols indicating that the person stated will die.If I can get a clearer picture I will post it. Remember that this was confirmed by scientists and resaerchers, and that this was found in the untranslated version of the christian bible that we have in America.

And sorry for such a big picture.

This post has been edited by Toasty64: 18 February 2006 - 07:17 PM

[Elliott]

I post those symbols as a way of saying I am better than religion. I don't believe in the existance of God therefore I don't believe in the existance of Satan either, you can't have one and not the other. I post, and use, symbols etc. like that to get on the nerves of religious people, to get a reaction etc. and obviously it works. Personally, I think anyone who has a religion has to be stupid to believe in something with no basis in fact. It's just silly. Don't get me wrong, I have a few Christian friends (being at a christian school), but I think what they do on Sundays is just plain retarded.

[My Best Wishes]

I'm sorry but do you actually understand the concept of faith?

Seeing as you go to a christian school and they force the bible down your throat I can understand why you're bitter, but why you're so angry is another story.

[Elliott]

Over the last 7 or 8 years or so of being involved and being around Christians and church etc. I just became fed up with it and everything that comes with the religion. I hate the concepts, the principles and everything about it. This applies to every other religion as well, I want nothing to do with it, or anyone involved with it.

[el_Sethro]

watch, on Feb 18 2006, 09:34 PM, said:

LMAO. I can't believe anyone is THAT stupid! Congrats Dullahan.

If you don't believe in god, fine, if you don't believe there's a Satan, lol you're ****ed.

What, are you going to try to "prove" that there's a satan now, too?

Quote

I'm sorry but do you actually understand the concept of faith?

though the questoin was not directed at me, I can say that yes, I do understand the concept. It seems to me that it's all these religious nuts who keep trying to prove that there is a god don't understand the concept. Like I've said before, there's no point in trying to prove that he exists, as that would make FAITH unnecissary to religion, which of course, ruins the whole point.

Quote

This may be out of line but I have a question. Why do non-believers always try to put themselves higher than religion or do EXACTLY what the religion says NOT to do?

It's too bad that you think that because it shows that these athiests giving rational athiests such as myself a bad name. Sadly, many athiests go out of their way to be as un-christian as possible, and in doing so, throw out some perfectly good ideas, just because they're considered "christian", basically turning athiesm into a religion itself, whose principals are to go against all other religions. I consider myself a very moral - even righteous - person; I don't do drugs, I don't have sex, I don't like violence, but I am certainly in no way christian. So please realize that we aren't alway like that.

[Toasty64]

Agatio, on Feb 19 2006, 06:26 AM, said:

I want nothing to do with it, or anyone involved with it.

Yet you have Christian friends?

And I got a much clearer scan of that page, but my comp. wont let me open it. I've tried opening it with a number of scanning programs and photo/picture programs but nothing works. Can any body help?

[Mars Djinni]

I think you might want to get another picture, it isn't working.

[Laharl]

watch, on Feb 19 2006, 12:04 AM, said:

LMAO. I can't believe anyone is THAT stupid! Congrats Dullahan.

If you don't believe in god, fine, if you don't believe there's a Satan, lol you're ****ed.

impressive, you're condemning me to a hell i don't even believe in. nicely done.

[Eugine]

You don't have to believe in something for it to exist.

Reply:
You don't have to believe in something which doesn't exist. D:

[Laharl]

no it's a fair point, even if it is stupid.e.g. i don' beleive in cheese, yert it still exists

[Toasty64]

That was pointless.......................................................................
.........................................................

................................................................................
...............................................................................

................................................................................
...............................................................................

As was this post, Toasty. I'd have thought you'd have known better than to post something like this, by now. - GL

[Ivan is my name]

aetheist ( sp) myself. We did this in RE not so long ago. ( in my eyes) If there was a god, why is there still suffering. If he is benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, then why is there still suffering. If there was a god ( still in my eyes) then there wouldnt be an earth.

[My Best Wishes]

There is so much hate, fear etc etc etc in this world because we made it. Racism in America between Blacks and Whites come from the settlers going to Africa to ensalve a race of people. Fear because of what our media selects to 'sell' us. We made whats in this world, it's ours to keep or to destroy.

[Golden Legacy]

Precisely what Watch has stated. All this suffering, these class and racial struggles, are all due to human incompetance and flaws. Those that are responsible for those calamities will not be salvaged later on, and justly, those who've proven moral and good beings will be rewarded.

[Ivan is my name]

That is a very good point actually. But if we made all this hate and fear in this world, God is obviuosly not benevolent to save or stop it.

[Eugine]

From a Christian point of view:
God believes in free will, he don't force Christianity on you. We live life how we want it to be. He just left a guide (the Bible) on how to use it.

[Split Infinity]

el_Sethro, on Feb 20 2006, 04:38 AM, said:

I consider myself a very moral - even righteous - person; I don't do drugs, I don't have sex, I don't like violence, but I am certainly in no way christian. So please realize that we aren't alway like that.

There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that sex is a bad thing, or we all probably wouldn't be here right now. Anyway, a person of your age shouldn't be having sex in the first place, in fact I believe it is illegal.

[My Best Wishes]

Ivan is my name, on Feb 28 2006, 05:54 PM, said:

That is a very good point actually. But if we made all this hate and fear in this world, God is obviuosly not benevolent to save or stop it.

I'm not sure you completely understood my point. My point was that among other things was that we made the hate, we created the racism. Think that god exists for a second, he is our father we are his kids. Would it be right for us to get into a fight or start something and then for him to step in and go 'nah guys i'm stopping this here'?

Spilt-I'm not under the impression that Seth ever said that sex was bad. How are we supposed to have kids otherwise? I believe he is stating that say one night stands and having sex for social reasons is wrong.

[Eugine]

LOL. I don't like your analogy Watch... If I was a father and I saw my kids fighting to death, I'd put myself in and try to control them.

I'd more say God is an observer, he warned us of what our sin can cause and how we can cure it. He would not step in until he finds to people who listens to his warning. He's feeling it, he wants to step in, but to obey his own rules, he can't.

[Elliott]

Just about human incompetance and flaws. It's not humanities fault that there are tsunamies, volcanoes, earthquakes, landslides etc. that kill millions of people.

If you believe that a god made this world, and that he has power over everything, then that would be his doing etc.? Is his plan for these people to let them live to 30 or however old they are, then kill them off with a natural disaster?

Because according to your beliefes, god has a plan for every single person does he not? Was his plan for those 6 million jews in the holocaust to be killed in crematoriams, death marches, and gas chambers?

Don't you see how little sense this makes? That this infinitely loving, infinitely merciful and all powerful god can let 6 million jews be slaughtered? Thousands killed in disasters? People raped every day?

And all this time you speak about god as though his existance is proven and factual, when all the while he is essentialy something written about in a book thousands of years ago and used to explain things people such as Christians can't (for some reason) be bothered turning to something like science for.

So on one hand you say god is all powerful/merciful/loving, yet people are murdered every day, raped, have things stolen from them, wrongfully incarcerated etc. etc. And you say this is due to free will?

I simply cannot fathom how you all fall for this.

[Eugine]

Agatio you are partially correct.

First of all, global population has caused an imbalance in the structure of the crust. Over population and excavating of the lands to build trains, underground tunnels, fending for water and many more caused this imbalance. Once man interferes with the structure of the earth, earthquakes occur because of the imbalance. Yes, it is a natural process for the earth to shake but man was a catalyst in all the catastrophic disasters of modern times.

Now that earthquakes have occurs (partly due to man), tsunamis will occur, no explanation in man's job; we (in)directly caused the earthquakes, so indirectly we caused the tsunamis.
When the earth crust is opened because of the earthquake, volcanoes can be formed along the crust of plates. We caused the earthquakes (in)directly, so we caused the volcanoes indirectly.
Landslides can be prevented, but man greedy, greedy ways have caused the poor people in South East Asia; Africa and here in the Caribbean to be succumbed to the forces of nature. Instead of trying to aid the people of SE Asia, we rather by rock music, go use our money in drinking beers, go concerts, buy cloths we don't even need, use our money to make websites... MUCH MORE.

Finally, I’ll repeat myself; God does NOT interfere with human actions, we caused it ourselves so we will fend and feel the consequences of our act by ourselves. God is a JUST God, when someone is just they don’t see make things perfect. They give you the punishment they deserve, trust me. We deserve it.

[Mars Djinni]

Life is too short. No one ever knows and will ever know when they will die. Hell, I could get hit by a car tomorrow. It is part of God's plan to keep people "awake" in a sense that at any given moment, God could just "end the audition". Think of it like that. What if you were asked to do an audition in front of a famous music artist with the chance of you having the opportunity to go and be part of his band. If you think you did well, then it would be something to be proud of in the end. If you screwedit up, then you'll be getting a Simon Cowell.

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Mar 1 2006, 07:54 AM, said:

LOL. I don't like your analogy Watch... If I was a father and I saw my kids fighting to death, I'd put myself in and try to control them.

Yea wasn't the best analogy ever.

Agatio, on Mar 1 2006, 11:42 AM, said:

Just about human incompetance and flaws. It's not humanities fault that there are tsunamies, volcanoes, earthquakes, landslides etc. that kill millions of people.

If you believe that a god made this world, and that he has power over everything, then that would be his doing etc.? Is his plan for these people to let them live to 30 or however old they are, then kill them off with a natural disaster?

Because according to your beliefes, god has a plan for every single person does he not? Was his plan for those 6 million jews in the holocaust to be killed in crematoriams, death marches, and gas chambers?

Don't you see how little sense this makes? That this infinitely loving, infinitely merciful and all powerful god can let 6 million jews be slaughtered? Thousands killed in disasters? People raped every day?

And all this time you speak about god as though his existance is proven and factual, when all the while he is essentialy something written about in a book thousands of years ago and used to explain things people such as Christians can't (for some reason) be bothered turning to something like science for.

So on one hand you say god is all powerful/merciful/loving, yet people are murdered every day, raped, have things stolen from them, wrongfully incarcerated etc. etc. And you say this is due to free will?

I simply cannot fathom how you all fall for this.

Agatio i'm sure you read my last posts but i'm also quite sure you missed my point(my fault for not being very clear) My point, as clear as i can make it: God can step in but it is our world to deal with. It's our reponsability, Eugine said it well "God does NOT interfere with human actions"

And Agatio, I am as sure that my religon is correct as you are that there is no god and satan.

[Laharl]

so your saying when something good happens god did it, when something bad happens he was...sleeping or busy or whatever. That sounds just like politicians

[Eugine]

Yep. Something so.

When God steps in, does miracles it is because we deserve it or he simply see us as an asset in curing the world. If we do wrong things, why would God give us miracles? We don't deserve them... We betrayed him.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 01 March 2006 - 04:24 PM

[Sea of Time]

I agree with Eugine, God does not interfere with human actions. He punishes us in the afterlife, but while we live, our actions are what makes us who we are.

[Laharl]

*realises error* **** i've been arguing religion with Americans, that's why i'm not getting anyway, people in the UK don't really give a **** about religion, not where i live anyway

[My Best Wishes]

And you think Australia is a happy go to church country? At least Americans mention God on their money.

And what does that have to do with anything laharl?

[Elliott]

So if something good happens say, you win the lottery, a new sibling is born, or your find a girlfriend, then that is seen as a 'gift from god' or, 'god has done this for me'.

Though, when the holocaust happened, or a tsunami kills thousands of people, or your parents die, then suddenly 'god isn't intervening', or, 'he's just observing'.

Don't any of you realise how little sense that makes?

Oh and Eugine, who fed you the bull**** about the earths population causing eathquakes, tsunamis, and volcanoes? Heard of Pompeii? These natural (emphasis on natural) disasters have been occuring before we hit the 6 billion people mark, they have been around for millions of years.

This post has been edited by Agatio: 02 March 2006 - 04:31 AM

[Laharl]

Sea of Time's and Eugene's previous comments stunned me that these people actually believe this so strongly. Need help getting point across...outnumbered greatly, damn christians!

[My Best Wishes]

Agatio, on Mar 2 2006, 09:29 PM, said:

So if something good happens say, you win the lottery, a new sibling is born, or your find a girlfriend, then that is seen as a 'gift from god' or, 'god has done this for me'.

Though, when the holocaust happened, or a tsunami kills thousands of people, or your parents die, then suddenly 'god isn't intervening', or, 'he's just observing'.

Don't any of you realise how little sense that makes?

Oh and Eugine, who fed you the bull**** about the earths population causing eathquakes, tsunamis, and volcanoes? Heard of Pompeii? These natural (emphasis on natural) disasters have been occuring before we hit the 6 billion people mark, they have been around for millions of years.

Lol it'd take more then God to get me a girlfriend <_<

I'd like to pick one thing from your post,

"Though, when the holocaust happened, or a tsunami kills thousands of people, or your parents die, then suddenly 'god isn't intervening', or, 'he's just observing'. "

I'll agree with that. The boxing day tsunami, Hurricane Katrina etc etc people always go "oh yea where was god, why didn't he help us". How bloody dumb do you have to be. "Oh god i don't believe in you" then when life sucks "Oh where is he? Why isn't he helping me"

Bloody hypocrites(sp?).

[Laharl]

they need to put their weak minded faith in something, the only gods i need are nature and science

[Eugine]

Agatio, I do Geography. I know what I'm talking about. Let me just get some internet resources for you.

Quote

Finally, ground shaking can also result from the detonation of explosives. Thus scientists have been able to monitor, using the tools of seismology, nuclear weapons tests performed by governments that were not disclosing information about these tests along normal channels. Earthquakes such as these, that are caused by human activity, are referred to by the term induced seismicity.

Other than that, humans catalyzed the other causes because of the imbalance of population on different plates. I'm not saying humans invented earthquakes or any natural disasters for that matter, I'm simply saying due to the greedy minds of humans the rate increased. Take for example hurricanes, due to global warming scientists have proven that extreme hurricanes will be more rampant and more destructive within the next 25 years. They have specifically blamed us, themselves on that.

And Agatio, those "miracles" you gave aren't the miracles God give. Those are simply luck, and influenced by man specifically. To make a baby you have sexual intercourse, wait 9 months and deliver the child. Nothing special about that. Anyone do it; but if you believe in God, he'll bless your newborn of course.

EDIT: Laharl, you can have both God & science at the same time you know. There's no rule in science which dictates "once you believe in science you're an atheist". A matter of fact, pioneered science experiments were done by full pleged religious people. Newton, Einstein (who wasn't Christian but religious I think) and most important of all in my opinion Gregor Mendel the father of Genetic Engineering. Let me tell you a story about Gregor Mendel.

I can't remember his era but he was a Australian Catholic priest & scientist at the same time. He carried out detailed experiments on genes inheritance using peas. His experiments were correct, but disgarded by scientists in old time. They were furious that a Christian man would destroy all of their other theorems. The scientific community disgarded his experiments and moved on, so did he. He simply wrote a book, he then died.
Only after he died, his experiments were approved and do you, he was downright correct. This brought about the genetic revolution. Now you see all the beautiful things we get because of the priest? If he was accepted before then, our quality of life would have been much better. Since yield is higher with Genetic Engineering.

My point: This is what you call a miracles and you can be both scientific and religous at the same time, I am. I know evolution back into front.

[el_Sethro]

Split Infinity, on Feb 28 2006, 06:34 AM, said:

There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that sex is a bad thing, or we all probably wouldn't be here right now. Anyway, a person of your age shouldn't be having sex in the first place, in fact I believe it is illegal.

I know that, and I don't have sex. that's my point. (although no, it is not illegal). Actually, I don't have a problem with loveless sex purely for pleasure (one-night stands), but I wouldn't do it myself. But that's another topic altogether.

Quote

So if something good happens say, you win the lottery, a new sibling is born, or your find a girlfriend, then that is seen as a 'gift from god' or, 'god has done this for me'.

Though, when the holocaust happened, or a tsunami kills thousands of people, or your parents die, then suddenly 'god isn't intervening', or, 'he's just observing'.

that has always bothered me about religion. They say that god has a plan for everybody, and you cannot change it (inwhich case, why pray for people who are in Intensive Care or something? if it is god's will that this person dies, who are you to ask him to save them?). Yet they also claim that everybody has free will, and you send yourself to hell. a good example of this is Judas. It was in god's plan all along that Jesus would die for our sins, so... Judas was fated to betray him. Fine. But now Judas burns in the ninth circle of hell because of this horrible betrayal, which he could not prevent? That hardly seems fair. poor Judas never had a chance.

[Eugine]

I always get angry when people interpret the Bible wrong! El Sethro, that was very wrong.

Did Jesus specifically tell Judas, "you're going to betray me Judas & there's nothing you can do about it!' No. When Jesus told Judas this, Judas had already planned his act. God did not influence it. Jesus is God therefore he knew it all along. He knew when he came Judas will betray him. Did he cause it? No, it was all in Judas heart.
Finally, Judas was not convicted to hell because of this act. After betraying God, Judas committed suicide. Suicide without a plausible reason is hell.

This post has been edited by Eugine: 02 March 2006 - 05:29 AM

[Elliott]

So, god did not influence it at all. But at the same time god is all knowing, and has a plan for every single person? Explain this to me.

[Eugine]

Lets say, you're having a party at your parent house. You know it's wrong but yet you do it. They were informed by a friend, so they are well informed on what you're planning. You can step in and cancel the party or you can just wait and see what they do in the situation. In God case he usually waits and just knows the outcome. He doesn't want to aid you because he wants you to make your own decisions.

Using the parents analogy again let's say God has an investment in the bank for you. He warned you that if you betray him in anyway he'll not give you that loan to get a head start in life but as long as he see a true change in you he is always willing to give you that loan.

Using the parents analogy again <_< let's say your parents are excellent in the doctor field. Of course your parents will want you to become a doctor because they're expert at the field, you may choose it or not. It is their plan for you to choose it of course.
Also, God is a personal God meaning he has a relationship with everyone and never shares he give each person 100%.

[el_Sethro]

Eugine, on Mar 2 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

I always get angry when people interpret the Bible wrong! El Sethro, that was very wrong.

Did Jesus specifically tell Judas, "you're going to betray me Judas & there's nothing you can do about it!' No. When Jesus told Judas this, Judas had already planned his act. God did not influence it. Jesus is God therefore he knew it all along. He knew when he came Judas will betray him. Did he cause it? No, it was all in Judas heart.
Finally, Judas was not convicted to hell because of this act. After betraying God, Judas committed suicide. Suicide without a plausible reason is hell.

... yet Judas burns (actually, technically he freezes, I believe) in the deepest circle of hell, which is reserved for traitors (therefore, he was sent to hell because of the betrayal, not the suicide).

and it was my understanding that Jesus's whole purpose on earth was to be sacrificed for our sins; it was all planned out well ahead of time. You said yourself that he knew when he came that Judas would betray him, before the thought ever entered Judas's mind. That doesn't sound like Judas had a choice to me - if Judas truely had the freedom of choice, then god would not know what he was going to do until Judas had made his choice.

[Eugine]

Judas did have a choice. God just knew what his choice would have been... That's all, what's so hard to understand about that?

[Laharl]

so this god of yours, he's a bit schizo isn't he? (No offence intended)

[Someone Else]

That sounds very iffy. NOTHING, AND NO ONE CAN KNOW WHAT can happen UNTIL it happens. You can know what choices you have in certain situations and you know what choices you have in life. How can "God" know all the choices, and what happens because of these choices?

[My Best Wishes]

Eugine, on Mar 2 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

Finally, Judas was not convicted to hell because of this act. After betraying God, Judas committed suicide. Suicide without a plausible reason is hell.

Actually he was destined for hell anyway, same as the Cain in Cain and Abel.

el_Sethro, on Mar 3 2006, 08:16 AM, said:

[color=gray]... yet Judas burns (actually, technically he freezes, I believe) in the deepest circle of hell, which is reserved for traitors (therefore, he was sent to hell because of the betrayal, not the suicide).
/color]

What is with these circles of Hell? Who fed you this BS info? You know theres more to it then just Heaven and Hell.

[Laharl]

yeah that hell crap is irritating, Lucifer got thrown out of heaven for what? Answering back to god? if god's so ommnipotent and almighty why doesn't he just destroy Lucifer, eliminating all evil, he did create him after all according to your faith

[Mars Djinni]

Lucifer got thrown out of heaven because of the fact that he planned to overthrow God. As a test, God lets Satan tempt people sometimes to prove that a person is strong enough to stay in allegience to God. Something like the story of Job. I think that Satan may be destined to be destroyed finally during Judegement Day or so.

[Laharl]

the seriousness with which you said that amuses me greatly

[Elliott]

Why did this topic get left to die? Anyway...

Eugine, on Mar 2 2006, 10:29 PM, said:

I always get angry when people interpret the Bible wrong! El Sethro, that was very wrong.

But who determines what is the right interpretation?

Let's look at this logically for a change shall we; since that glorious day Jesus was crucified, all that has been left behind on this Earth was The Holy Bible (the word of God supposedly), correct? So how is anyone supposed to know what the correct interpretation of this book is? Why are there so many different denominations with their own unique version of God's will, and takes on the events of The Bible?

I would assume your answer to this question is that they have prayed over it, and that God has shown them the right direction to take? If that is correct, then why are there still so many different denominations if it is the same god giving the answers?

How can the one omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient god (who is always portrayed as the rock-like figure; forever consistent and never changing) give so many different answers?

So I guess what my main queries here are, why are there so many denominations, and how does one interpret The Bible in the 'correct' manner?

I think you find when you poke and prod at Christianity (or any religion for that matter), and when you question your faith, and the very foundations of Christianity, that is when the seams that hold it together finally fall apart, and the faith in your non-existent god is finally lost. That's what happened to me anyway.

[Hotshot101]

The different denominations though don't make it up. Now let me poke and prod at an athiest here (which you are I am very well guess). You may not believe in a god, but how do you know there isn't? For instance what created us? And Don't even try the big bang theory with me and evelution did not say how the earth was created it just says how we where. We couldn't have just been there either, because as for every, cause there is an effect. We where the effect, then there had to be a cause. Also are emotions that defines us from a robot of sorts. With the way are body structure is, you can't make emotions. Also what about your entire being? You see something had to create us no way any of these wacky theories could be true.

You may be able to poke and prod at our religion, because it is easy for an athiests point of view to say that even didn't even exist or if it did. If you weren't you would crumble yourselves.

[Nyktos]

Hotshot101, on Jan 3 2007, 07:51 PM, said:

Now let me poke and prod at an athiest here (which you are I am very well guess). You may not believe in a god, but how do you know there isn't? For instance what created us?

I am not Agatio, but I am an atheist, so I will answer this. I am not against the concept of a god. However I believe that it is far, far more likely that there is no god, than that there is. Also, the chance of any actual existing religion being true approaches zero if you actually look at statistics.

Hotshot101, on Jan 3 2007, 07:51 PM, said:

because as for every, cause there is an effect. We where the effect, then there had to be a cause.

True, but the cause could easily be something other than intelligent design.

Hotshot101, on Jan 3 2007, 07:51 PM, said:

Also are emotions that defines us from a robot of sorts. With the way are body structure is, you can't make emotions.

Ever heard of hormones?

Hotshot101, on Jan 3 2007, 07:51 PM, said:

Also what about your entire being? You see something had to create us no way any of these wacky theories could be true.

Intelligent design does not "have" to be true. Random creation is very much possible.

[Golden Legacy]

Felix of Vale, on Jan 3 2007, 08:59 PM, said:

Intelligent design does not "have" to be true. Random creation is very much possible.

Do you know the sheer mathematical impossibility of "random creation"? Physicists believe that when the Big Bang occurred, if it was off by a single particle, the whole thing would have collapsed immediately. We would believe that the universe is billions of years old, an amount of time that is beyond comprehension -

and that somehow, there was a star that was JUST the right size, that had a planet that was JUST the right distance, that had JUST enough gravity to hold it together, etc. etc.

It seems far too unlikely. In fact, I'd argue that an Intelligent Designer makes more sense here, as everything would have fallen into chaos, as probability dictates.

[Nyktos]

I'm not discounting intelligent design. And yes, random creation is very unlikely. And yet, it is impossible to deny that it happened, at least once, unless you claim that God has existed for all of infinity, he was randomly created (or created by another being, but random creation has to have happened at some point).

[Elliott]

Hotshot101, on Jan 4 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

The different denominations though don't make it up. Now let me poke and prod at an athiest here (which you are I am very well guess). You may not believe in a god, but how do you know there isn't? For instance what created us? And Don't even try the big bang theory with me and evelution did not say how the earth was created it just says how we where. We couldn't have just been there either, because as for every, cause there is an effect. We where the effect, then there had to be a cause. Also are emotions that defines us from a robot of sorts. With the way are body structure is, you can't make emotions. Also what about your entire being? You see something had to create us no way any of these wacky theories could be true.

You may be able to poke and prod at our religion, because it is easy for an athiests point of view to say that even didn't even exist or if it did. If you weren't you would crumble yourselves.

1. I don't KNOW there is no god. But I do KNOW that the Judeo-Christian god as described in the bible does not exist, because how can he exist as you say he does, with such a history of atrocities in this world? That makes absolutely no sense.

2. You asked what created us, I ask what created God. It's a stalemate question that will never be answered on this Earth, at least in my lifetime.

3. I see Christianity as just as much a wacky theory as you see my beliefs. You say a man rose from the dead and than another man parted seas? How is that anymore believable than the theory of evolution (which at least has some scientific backing).

Quote

It seems far too unlikely. In fact, I'd argue that an Intelligent Designer makes more sense here, as everything would have fallen into chaos, as probability dictates.

There is the EXACT same odds that an intelligent designer / God exists than there is that everything happened by chance (what I believe): 50/50. Look at this mathematically:

Everything happened by chance
------------------------
Intelligent designer / God

Exact same odds, see? I choose to believe in chance because that has some scientific backing (the theory of eveolution) unlike the intelligent designer theory which basically says (correct me if I'm wrong): There has to be a designer because everything is too complex to happen by chance.

[Golden Legacy]

Agatio, on Jan 3 2007, 09:17 PM, said:

Exact same odds, see? I choose to believe in chance because that has some scientific backing (the theory of eveolution) unlike the intelligent designer theory which basically says (correct me if I'm wrong): There has to be a designer because everything is too complex to happen by chance.

Almost.

There has to be a designer NOT because "everything is too complex", but BECAUSE everything is complex.

Is it really mere coincidence that everything is structured the way it is? That everything, from the cells in our body, to the stars in space, are dictated by the motions of atoms? That the same force that keeps us on Earth also attracts the plants, the Sun, etc.?

In a layman's content, just look at everything around you. Why is it so hard to accept that this is the work of an Intelligent Designer, when everything is intricately linked, everything is related, everything functions and exists as they do.


Think about this. "Random Chance" ALWAYS goes to the most natural, SIMPLE path. That's what it would spontaneously end up doing. Yet, the complexity of the world is far greater than that. Everything around us is UNNECESSARILY COMPLEX to exist - things don't NEED TO BE this complex, but they are.

[Hotshot101]

To give you a real point of view on religion. We don't know whats going to happen when we die, what created us, or the real truth. No matter how much we want to deny it we don't know. So its mainly a random draw of the card about who is right and who is wrong. I just bet my way you bet yours. Its that simple. So you can't really prove me wrong anymore then I can prove you wrong.

As for creation yes it is sorta a stalemate on the accounts, but random creation is just to unlikely. Nothing like that happens by accident. Who could have caused it if it did?

[Elliott]

How about this theory:

Since the beginning of time (probably not the best term to use), planets have been popping up all over the universe similar to ours (in one way or another) and failing because of one or two details; be it a small oxygen deficiency, perhaps there was not enough room and overpopulation occurred which led people to kill each other until there was no one left, or maybe even an meteor collided with that planet and obliterated it.

For all we know these things could all have happened, and it just so happens that the Earth we live in is fortunate enough to have just the right chemical balance, lack of disasters etc. enabling us to live the way we do today. How the other planets failed is not important, but the merely the possibility that they do or did exist.

This is entirely within the realm of possibility.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe we are not the only 'Earth' ever to existed, and many may have existed before us but have failed, or maybe they still do exist, but we have not yet discovered them and we just happen to be the one (or one of the) planet(s) that as lasted as long as it has; though that's not to say that we couldn't all be wiped out some time in the next 100 years but some unforeseen disaster, war, plague etc. thus beginning another cycle.

I know this all seems far fetched when you think about it, but at least it can BE explained by some form of science, unlike the intelligent designer theory which simply states that some guy pulled a universe out of his arse because he was bored.

I hope that all made sense.

Anyway, for me, the beginning is irrelevant. I don't care how we got here, as dwelling on the beginning is counter-productive to both the present and the future for me. What I'd much rather discuss is the fundamentals or religion, how they affect us today, and why they exist in the first place; as opposed to sitting here talking about what could have happened to created the universe (which is something Christians seem to find very important, as whenever they find something that can't be explained, they use God).

[Hotshot101]

Well I can answer why religion exists.

Religions exist to find truth or answers to the universe that just about no science can explain. Each religion has its own way of truth. Its just a matter of trying to explain the unexplainable. So your theory is correct and many religions share the samething.

Athiests I can find seem not to really care why they are here or what happend or anything mysterous, thats why they don't seem to believe in a god.

Just dwelling on the past is not productive of course, learning from it is. Religion doesn't really affect us today (except for the terrorists) as much as it did a long time ago. Pretty much religion is you believe in one or you don't.

[Elliott]

Hotshot101, on Jan 4 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

Well I can answer why religion exists.

Religions exist to find truth or answers to the universe that just about no science can explain. Each religion has its own way of truth. Its just a matter of trying to explain the unexplainable. So your theory is correct and many religions share the samething.

Eventually we will be able to answer everything with science. Look at some historical examples; people used to think the earth was flat, and when people died from cancer it was because god was angry with them. Then we discovered that Earth actually revolves around the sun, and cancers are caused by a number of factors, God not being one of them. Science, logic, rationality and intelligence can provide answers to everything, maybe not today, but eventually. I mean what do you honestly need to know that can only be answered by God?

Hotshot101, on Jan 4 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

Athiests I can find seem not to really care why they are here or what happend or anything mysterous, thats why they don't seem to believe in a god.

I'd rather live purely by my own experiences, triumphs and downfalls rather than a 2000 year old book. Simple as that.

Hotshot101, on Jan 4 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

Just dwelling on the past is not productive of course, learning from it is. Religion doesn't really affect us today (except for the terrorists) as much as it did a long time ago. Pretty much religion is you believe in one or you don't.

Actually, Christian morals affect everyone in some way or another. Christians think murder is wrong, yet I feel that some people deserve it; so then if I am to kill someone, I'm the bad guy. Christians think sex before marriage is wrong, I think it's fine and dandy; yet when people do it, the church frowns upon them. Christians think lying is wrong, but in some situations, lying is beneficial to everyone involved.

So as you can see (and there are probably other examples I can't think of) Christian morals are embedded deep into most Western Societies, and have been for the past 2000 years. So to say that religion ONLY affects us because of terrorists is extremely incorrect.

[Hotshot101]

religion doesn't affect murder. That was put in even before christianity. I know some people deserve it doesn't make it really make it right. The church yes, but not the government. It is a good idea for helth reasons like aids and other wierd reasons I don't really care to explain. The 3rd one didn't make a wit of sense lieing can be dangerous and sometimes it ain't.

I don't think you will be able to answer everything with science. There are a lot of mysteries out there. Science mabye able to solve a great number of things now, but there are somethings that can't be solved.

Christian take in there own triumph, downfalls, expierences just like you. The Bible is a way to help us live ourlives as good as we can.

[Eugine]

Well, the reason why we interprete the Bible different is simply because
1. Not everyone has the same intelligence, just as how we interprete questions different, same goes for the Bible. And to add to this, the Bible is a serious book for many people, cuz it governs the way of life of many people...
different interpretations = segregations = different denomination.
2. Even if you're religious, remember we all have human desires, some people even segregated to fit their desires in their religion (the Anglicans parted from the Catholics because some priests wanted to get married for example).
3. Lastly... Religion will be undermined by the antagonists, and 'sinners', to accomadate it. Most religions 'soften', for example some churches want to allow abortions, *** priests, etc. This human desires causes segregation (Athiests may argue they do this to keep thier hold on people for continual donations o.o)

You can even argue that Muslims, Jews, Christians all served the same God, but eventually we interpreted and followed different reincarnations because of personal choice, that doesn't mean we aren't connected, because ultimately, it's the same God we desire. Read this.

Basically, we humans hadda be foolish to follow this God for the entire existance of homo sapiens, and the increasing use of science hasn't really changed things. Contrary to popular belief, people are turning to religions more and more. Church attendants in USA was one of the highest this Christmas IIRC.

[My Best Wishes]

Why was this topic not left to die.

Agatio-
There are so many branches of Christianity because people interpet things differently, and also look how many different translations of the Bible there is. That is reason enough for misunderstandings.
God(Heavenly Father) was created by his parents, the same way you were, by a man and a women.

Moses parted the Red Sea by the priesthood, the power of God. Jesus rose people from the dead because he also had the priesthood.

You are very correct, we are not the only 'Earth' to exist. The reference I am thinking of escapes me at the moment though.

[Elliott]

God was created by his parents? There's a new one.

[My Best Wishes]

It mades more sense by calling him Heavenly Father but what is so 'different' about it?

[Elliott]

I thought you talking about the God who made the world, not the God that the other God send down to earth to tell people about that God and the other God who happens to be a spirit. Damn intertwined trinities.

[My Best Wishes]

I got that after reading it twice.

God is Heavenly Father
His son is Jesus
The other spirit is the Holy spirit, or, the Holy Ghost. I believe in the trinity, not the trinity in one being crap.

[Elliott]

But why do you believe? Why is it necessary to put your faith in the unseen? I could never seem to understand the mentality of Christians. Is it because you're afraid of what happens when you die? Do you do it to be accepted by Christian family and friends? Is it so you can be a part of a 'great cause'? What initially made you fall for it, and why do you continue to read The Bible, pray, and go to Church so you can pay someone to read The Bible to you?

[My Best Wishes]

I am a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) so my church and my beliefs are quite different to that of say, Izar, or a catholic.

I grew up in my church, my parents are both members, they met at a dance.
As I see it, it is not 'necessary to put your faith in the unseen', however you live you will go to heaven, to an extent. There are 3 degrees of Heaven, the lowest as it is commonly known is Hell. It is not the place of fire and brimstone where Homer Simpson will make you eat doughnuts. It is the place reserved for people, and I summarised this once "They have lived after the manner of the world, they have been carnal, sensual and devilish. They have chosen the world over Jesus they are, liars and thieves sorceress and adulaters blasphemers and murderers. Their number will include all the proud yea and all that do wickedly."

Why do I put my faith in the unseen? Well to use a simple answer, because that is what faith is. But for me? Because I know that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost exists, and I know that my Heavenly Father loves me. As he equally loves all his childern.

To answer your last two questions, I was born into it, I never fell for anything.
Why do I continue to go to church? Truthfully I go out of habit and to see my friends. I live in a area where the Chapel has 3 different wards meeting there, meaning alot of 'youth', people I get along with. Adding the fact I've known these people for 2-8 years it makes strong friendships. And no not all of use follow the 'rules' but the main reason I go is for my mates.

As for reading the Bible? I don't, I don't read the scriptures. Even in our 'classes' we turn them into conversations about anything rather then Luke chapter 4 or whatever.

[Elliott]

Again we hit the brick wall argument...

Christian: You need faith in the lord God!
Atheist: Why? My life is going fine without it. I don't fear death, and I don't need a book to tell me how to live.
Christian: God is real, you need faith in him otherwise you go to Hell.
Atheist: Show me God, and show me Hell, and I will believe.
Christian: No one on Earth has ever seen Hell. Pray to God, he will answer!
Atheist: I prayed, and nothing happened, no matter how hard I tried and listened.
Christian: You need faith in the lord God!

So on and so fourth.

Present me with something fresh!
I've heard all these tired arguments before; so do me a favour and show me some kind of logical and rational argument. Present me with some kind of proof or evidence that backs up your intelligent design theory or your belief in God.

[My Best Wishes]

You reply as though I had a point to prove. You speak as though all christians believe you must have faith and obey or burn. What sort of father would do that to his childern? If he sacrificed one of his childern for the rest of us why would he shun you for having doubt?

[Hotshot101]

Agatio, on Jan 4 2007, 08:17 AM, said:

Again we hit the brick wall argument...

Christian: You need faith in the lord God!
Atheist: Why? My life is going fine without it. I don't fear death, and I don't need a book to tell me how to live.
Christian: God is real, you need faith in him otherwise you go to Hell.
Atheist: Show me God, and show me Hell, and I will believe.
Christian: No one on Earth has ever seen Hell. Pray to God, he will answer!
Atheist: I prayed, and nothing happened, no matter how hard I tried and listened.
Christian: You need faith in the lord God!

So on and so fourth.

Present me with something fresh!
I've heard all these tired arguments before; so do me a favour and show me some kind of logical and rational argument. Present me with some kind of proof or evidence that backs up your intelligent design theory or your belief in God.

If you want a debate well here is one. Through out the bible there are predictions of revalation, not just in the book itself. Its even in Isiah. One verse dictates that people will come from all over the world to the holy land and come under one language. Now you look at the period between the world wars and now. Jews have started converging back to Israel and became a country again in the 1950s. Thats the first prediction. In Israel, a person has been teaching these jews how to speak hebrew. There is your second. Now the bible says 70 years after Israel has control over there promised land. Around that 70 years the rapture is suppose to happen. There are also many other signs from revalation. One is the bible vaguely predicts the crashing of the twin towers. Another is the wars and rumors of wars. We are currently at war with terrorist world wide. Rumors would be a war with Iran and North Korea. There are probaly many more rumors. Its all leading up to the rapture. Now all we need is this guy trying to put the world back together.

Except it or not this is all going to happen and nothing you can say will stop it.

Now I know you can say its all coincedence, but you don't know that for sure do you?

[Saturos S.]

Before joining the discussion I'll clarify what I am first.

I was raised as a catholic. The first... 12-13 years of life I went to church each weekend and got pretty well-known through-out the church due to that I was in the children choir and regularly joined in church activities. However when growing up I started to do different things on Sunday. So I started going to church less and now I've more or less stopped going. Only on christmas eve and easter days really.

I can easily say that I'd like something to be there, to guide or at least help my fate in a passive way. I'd like to think that my grandfather who died a few weeks before my birth looks down on me, or at least knows of how I am and what I'm like. I'd like to think that there is something after death.

But if you just look at it seriously, you know that there isn't a god or gods. Someone that controls your fate or created life. So I'm more or less an atheist now. I respect those who think like I mentioned because I'd like to be able to think that way. It gives a sort of peace or harmony to be able to know (or think) that death isn't the end, that there are people always watching over you or at least that you're fate, how bad as it might be, can change if you live well. But, alas, as sceptic as I am, I, for one, can't think that way.

[Elliott]

Hotshot101, on Jan 5 2007, 05:22 AM, said:

If you want a debate well here is one. Through out the bible there are predictions of revalation, not just in the book itself. Its even in Isiah. One verse dictates that people will come from all over the world to the holy land and come under one language. Now you look at the period between the world wars and now. Jews have started converging back to Israel and became a country again in the 1950s. Thats the first prediction. In Israel, a person has been teaching these jews how to speak hebrew. There is your second. Now the bible says 70 years after Israel has control over there promised land. Around that 70 years the rapture is suppose to happen. There are also many other signs from revalation. One is the bible vaguely predicts the crashing of the twin towers. Another is the wars and rumors of wars. We are currently at war with terrorist world wide. Rumors would be a war with Iran and North Korea. There are probaly many more rumors. Its all leading up to the rapture. Now all we need is this guy trying to put the world back together.

Except it or not this is all going to happen and nothing you can say will stop it.

Now I know you can say its all coincedence, but you don't know that for sure do you?

How do a few vague predictions confirm the existence of anything in The Bible?
You're really grasping at straws here. I could say something now and then in 20 years it might happen, that doesn't make me Godlike, it just means I got luck.

Nostradamus said this in the 16th century:

Quote

In the year of the new century and nine months,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror
The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.
Fire approaches the great new city
In the city of York there will be a great collapse,
2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb
Third big war will begin when the big city is burning

Does that make him some kind of supernatural deity because he predicted 9/11?

[Eugine]

The Nostradamus prediction was disproved a while ago. Smart asses purposely twisted his prophecies when translating to make it seem like a 9/11 prediction. Plus, they also took different lines from his quatrains to make it even more believable, when infact they were different predictions alltogether.

If Nostradamus actually predicted what you typed there, he'd of been a saint or something now, because he was a Christian (or atleast religious) himself.

[Hotshot101]

Notradamus nothing! There was no notradomus in the bible. If anything he wrote some fake book 100-200 years after it all was said to be. Gotta look at the actual bible not some nostic gospel.

[Elliott]

How is The Bible any different? It was written by bias Christians. They could have put anything they wanted in there, and bias Christians today could still be twisting their words for all we know. It's a 2000 year old book, anything could have changed, it's entirely within the realm of possibility.

[Hotshot101]

The nostic gospels are in seperate books. Us being biased, aren't you doing the same thing? You can't prove are beliefs wrong anymore then we can prove yours.

How do you know the bible was or was not changed? You would have to have the original to tell that and we only have half.

[Elliott]

But why risk putting faith in something like that?
Why risk placing your blind faith in a text that could have been manipulated and edited 1000s of times since it was first written? Wouldn't you rather base the way in which you live entirely around your own first-hand experiences, than around those who died thousands of years ago? Why is it necessary?
Couldn't you be just as happy, if not happier without living by a book?
I just can't seem to get my around the stupid mentality that drives people to live their lives by some ancient text (not just Christians, but other religions as well).

[Golden Legacy]

Agatio, on Jan 4 2007, 09:12 PM, said:

I just can't seem to get my around the stupid mentality that drives people to live their lives by some ancient text (not just Christians, but other religions as well).

I just can't seem to get my head around the stupid mentality that drives people to follow laws set down in society.

(sarcasm there)

[Split Infinity]

The law can be wrong at times, yes, but what laws would you be referring to in particular?

[Hotshot101]

General laws like not killing someone.


Agatio the only recorded changes in the bible are the nostic gospels and they are pretty much excluded from the bible itself. Really all you are getting at Agatio is that you think that you can't see it means it isn't real.

[Split Infinity]

Such laws are common sense, not having them in place would mean chaos and constant fear for everybody.

[Elliott]

Hotshot101, on Jan 5 2007, 01:42 PM, said:

General laws like not killing someone.

Agatio the only recorded changes in the bible are the nostic gospels and they are pretty much excluded from the bible itself. Really all you are getting at Agatio is that you think that you can't see it means it isn't real.

How do you know what GL was referring to? Answering questions intended for other people isn't a good trait to have.

Well why should I, or anyone else believe in something and base my life around something that I don't know to even be real?

[Hotshot101]

That was kinda commen sense.


Don't you want to have atleast some consent of what can happen to you when you leave this world? I mean there is more to the body then just the biology. We each have a soul that makes us who we are. That just doesn't dissapear.

[Split Infinity]

Agatio would probably argue that that's just a myth of which there is no real evidence.

[Elliott]

Please, if you're going to debate, don't say things like "we all have souls" and then provide absolutely no evidence to support it. All that does is show how ignorant and simple-minded you really are.

[Mars Djinni]

Here's my reason as to why I choose to be a part of Christianity.

I want to make the most of my life, then I choose to keep working hard to the bitter end. I'll compare it to a skill I've used as a Martial Artist for a long time.

It's like trying to break a wooden board which is held six feet above the ground with a jump-kick. To break it, what I do is to imagine the impact point to be higher than the board itself (Let's say six and a half feet).

Simple imagining doesn't cut it though. One has to BELIEVE it is ACTUALLY six feet and a half, to act as if it were a reality. If the mental note still is "I know it's six feet high, but I'm trying to imagine it as six and a half", then it won't work.

In doing so, all force goes beyond the actual barrier to meet the visualized target.

Now contextually, I take the same approach to life. Though I set goals to my life (careers, achievements, etc) to make my life worthwhile, my true goal is not aimed during life itself, but rather after. I choose to believe that by using what I've got - my abilities, talents, strengths - in the service of others, I will reach the goal beyond life itself. My death is the barrier, and my goal outside of it that my LORD dictates is the visualized target.

Life demands risks. I choose to go beyond the unseen, to jump beyond the borders of human knowledge to believe that God exists. Why? Because I feel this is the best path of life for me, I being someone who has a lot of aspirations, yet needs the motivation.

[Elliott]

Mars Djinni, on Jan 5 2007, 02:58 PM, said:

Now contextually, I take the same approach to life. Though I set goals to my life (careers, achievements, etc) to make my life worthwhile, my true goal is not aimed during life itself, but rather after. I choose to believe that by using what I've got - my abilities, talents, strengths - in the service of others, I will reach the goal beyond life itself. My death is the barrier, and my goal outside of it that my LORD dictates is the visualized target.

That's a bit of a gamble; limiting the life you know you have to make the life you're not sure even exists better.

[Eugine]

You can't argue religion with scientific facts Agatio. That's the reason I guess you're in disbelief. Religion wasn't made to be answered with scientific facts (simply because it was there long before man comprehended science or knew about it infact).

Religion was made to be answered, simply on faith, which is something everyone was made with. If you don't understand faith, you can't understand religion.
Simply put, faith is the opposite of fear. Fear is the belief that the outcome of a situation will be bad, while faith is the belief that the outcome of a situation will be good. We have faith in religion because who wants fear?

Saying that, we can go back to this:
Christian: You need faith in the lord God!
We simply chose to have faith in 'lord God', because we put our hope in that the future will be good for us. and this higher being can see to it that we will be fine in the future. How can that be explained scientifically?

Atheist: Why? My life is going fine without it. I don't fear death, and I don't need a book to tell me how to live.
Well, not pointing at you, but I know for a fact that many athiests said this, but contradicted themselves when death arrives. Most saying 'Help me lord/God' when their time is reached. This simple sentence shows the basic instinct for man to call on a higher being in time of need, and most likely, this is why faith exists in a higher being. It's built into us.

Christian: God is real, you need faith in him otherwise you go to Hell.
Atheist: Show me God, and show me Hell, and I will believe.
Even if God isn't real, the belief that he is, is something many humans need. Maybe the Bible said he was a personal God for a reason. Maybe, maybe God is simply ingrained in us to have faith.

Christian: No one on Earth has ever seen Hell. Pray to God, he will answer!
Atheist: I prayed, and nothing happened, no matter how hard I tried and listened.
Praying and simply reciting something in one head is different imo. I guess when prayingathiests need to mean it. Something I find it hard to accomplish because theirs disbelief ingrained. I guess only life experience can change one mind.
Christian: You need faith in the lord God!

But then, aruging religion is very hard when there's so much out. That's why I hope to take a philosophical study on religion (everyone - the good and bad) before I die to understand it more.

EDIT: So much people posted before I wrote this <___<. MD, basically I share the same opinion as you.

[Golden Legacy]

Golden Legacy, on Jan 4 2007, 09:55 PM, said:

I just can't seem to get my head around the stupid mentality that drives people to follow laws set down in society.

(sarcasm there)

Agatio, on Jan 4 2007, 10:52 PM, said:

How do you know what GL was referring to? Answering questions intended for other people isn't a good trait to have.

Here is what I was talking about.

Agatio, you seem intent on discounting the religious principles as being untrustworthy, and yet you choose to abide just by secular laws that make up our society today. It's actually a bit of a contradiction.

You claim that you don't want to trust in an "ancient book" of guidelines, believing that is has been manipulated.

Do you honestly feel safer trusting the secular laws of today? Do you feel safe believing in the society where corruption and killings are daily occurrences?

Look at Christianity, Islam, etc. Say what you will about those "books" (Bible, Qu'ran, etc.), the same principles that the religious followers adhere to today are the SAME ones from thousands of years ago.

Which do you want to trust more, the corrupt secular laws of today (which, let me remind you, are ALSO created by "distant" people), or the laws that have survived the test of time, for thousands of years, and have proven themselves?

[Elliott]

Eugine, on Jan 5 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

You can't argue religion with scientific facts Agatio. That's the reason I guess you're in disbelief. Religion wasn't made to be answered with scientific facts (simply because it was there long before man comprehended science or knew about it infact).

But these days, and for the past few hundred years, science is correcting the answers to questions that people were previously using religion to answer. Doesn't it seem like a matter of time before every answer religion has to offer will be corrected by science? That's what I believe anyway, I suppose only time can tell there though.

Eugine, on Jan 5 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

Religion was made to be answered, simply on faith, which is something everyone was made with. If you don't understand faith, you can't understand religion.
Simply put, faith is the opposite of fear. Fear is the belief that the outcome of a situation will be bad, while faith is the belief that the outcome of a situation will be good. We have faith in religion because who wants fear?

I'd rather live with reality than with faith, as faith is unproductive. Faith is putting trust and responsibility into the unseen, rather than taking matters into our own hands. Rather than have faith that God will provide for me, I'd rather go into the world and provide for myself, and make decisions on my own merits rather than praying to God / having faith. In a way faith is for the lazy, rather than for those who have the will to do things by themselves, for themselves. As for the fear argument, I really don't fear death, in all honesty. I know that when I die, my question of Heaven and Hell, God and Satan will be answered; but until my dying day I simply cannot believe in Heaven or Hell, God or Satan as they cannot ever be proved to exist.

Eugine, on Jan 5 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

Saying that, we can go back to this:
Christian: You need faith in the lord God!
We simply chose to have faith in 'lord God', because we put our hope in that the future will be good for us. and this higher being can see to it that we will be fine in the future. How can that be explained scientifically?

Atheist: Why? My life is going fine without it. I don't fear death, and I don't need a book to tell me how to live.
Well, not pointing at you, but I know for a fact that many athiests said this, but contradicted themselves when death arrives. Most saying 'Help me lord/God' when their time is reached. This simple sentence shows the basic instinct for man to call on a higher being in time of need, and most likely, this is why faith exists in a higher being. It's built into us.

Christian: God is real, you need faith in him otherwise you go to Hell.
Atheist: Show me God, and show me Hell, and I will believe.
Even if God isn't real, the belief that he is, is something many humans need. Maybe the Bible said he was a personal God for a reason. Maybe, maybe God is simply ingrained in us to have faith.

Christian: No one on Earth has ever seen Hell. Pray to God, he will answer!
Atheist: I prayed, and nothing happened, no matter how hard I tried and listened.
Praying and simply reciting something in one head is different imo. I guess when prayingathiests need to mean it. Something I find it hard to accomplish because theirs disbelief ingrained. I guess only life experience can change one mind.
Christian: You need faith in the lord God!

But then, aruging religion is very hard when there's so much out. That's why I hope to take a philosophical study on religion (everyone - the good and bad) before I die to understand it more.

I won't call for God when I'm about to die, because I don't believe in him. I don't see why a die hard Atheist such as myself would call for God when they about to die. Perhaps those out there who don't really have an opinion on religion might call for God, but for people like me who are anti-religious, calling God's name is out of the question.

Lastly, why "hope" that the future will be good for you, when you can make your future good for yourself by the decisions you make? Rather than think to yourself "God has a plan for me, and it will all work out", why not make your own plan, and make things work out by yourself, rather than putting blind faith in the unseen.

Golden Legacy, on Jan 5 2007, 03:21 PM, said:

Here is what I was talking about.

Agatio, you seem intent on discounting the religious principles as being untrustworthy, and yet you choose to abide just by secular laws that make up our society today. It's actually a bit of a contradiction.

You claim that you don't want to trust in an "ancient book" of guidelines, believing that is has been manipulated.

Do you honestly feel safer trusting the secular laws of today? Do you feel safe believing in the society where corruption and killings are daily occurrences?

Look at Christianity, Islam, etc. Say what you will about those "books" (Bible, Qu'ran, etc.), the same principles that the religious followers adhere to today are the SAME ones from thousands of years ago.

Which do you want to trust more, the corrupt secular laws of today (which, let me remind you, are ALSO created by "distant" people), or the laws that have survived the test of time, for thousands of years, and have proven themselves?

I don't have a very high opinion of society, or the government either.

To say that the principles that the religious followers adhere to today are the same as those thousands of years ago is not to say that those religious adherents created them. Look at it logically, if someone kills someone you care about, you will be upset and you want to see that person punished. Therefor, murder becomes something that the general populace agrees is bad.

I'm not sure if you were, but it seems you were implying that religious adherents are the ones who invented these laws, when in actual fact they the product of nature and common sense, and were most likely incorporated into religion and religious societies. As for surviving the test of time, laws back then such as 'Honor the Lord God', 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery' etc. are not around today are they? The only ones that have remained intact and been legislated are those that, as I said, are the result of nature and common sense.

[My Best Wishes]

Your whole arguement about not helping yourself because God will is a load of rubbish. Who really thinks just because they believe in God he will give them the month's rent or the car payment? You work hard and live a worthy and moral life and he will help you.

Have you also ever considered if God doesn't exist, maybe some people just feel calmer and happier with the belief that life has a purpose, and that they are part of something that extends through our life and death?

I know for me that my religion just makes sense. Don't drink, smoke or do drugs. These things kill you and change your state of mind. Do not have sex before marriage. Honour your spouse. Be honest, be physically healthly. Really it is very simple and basic to understand.

[Elliott]

Sex before marriage with protection is fine 99% of the time, really. I know quite a lot of people from both work and school, and they're very well balanced, nice and easy going people. Christianity places a lot of importance on sex I know, but there really isn't any reason why. Honour your spouse? Plenty of married couples these days have had sexual relations with other people before they got married, and they probably enjoy sex with each other a lot more now because they are both experienced. If 2 people never had sex until they were married, it would be one very awkward honey moon I would imagine.

Drinking doesn't kill you by the way. Of course over-indulgence and alcoholism are detrimental, but that's the same for anything. Eating 100 chocolate bars in one day will make you sick, but in moderation chocolate is fine. I drink, fairly frequently too, but it's not going to be the cause of my death because I don't drink in excess every night, or even every weekend anymore.

[Hotshot101]

Yeah I will agree with Agation on drinking. As long as you don't over do it. Its an okay thing.

Agation you rely to heavily on science to solve everything. Science has limitations and they can't be broken. Science has solved some of religion questions (mainly primative ones like space), but its hasn't solve many.

[Saturos S.]

Science really has solved a lot of questions. The only real thing that I rely on religion for is the afterlife.

[Eugine]

You really didn't read what MD wrote? Religion does more than that.

[Saturos S.]

Sorry, I said people but meant myself. It's been edited.

[Hotshot101]

Still there is a lot more then that.

[Golden Legacy]

I'm quoting what MD posted, because it's absolutely brilliant.

Mars Djinni, on Jan 4 2007, 11:58 PM, said:

Here's my reason as to why I choose to be a part of Christianity.

I want to make the most of my life, then I choose to keep working hard to the bitter end. I'll compare it to a skill I've used as a Martial Artist for a long time.

It's like trying to break a wooden board which is held six feet above the ground with a jump-kick. To break it, what I do is to imagine the impact point to be higher than the board itself (Let's say six and a half feet).

Simple imagining doesn't cut it though. One has to BELIEVE it is ACTUALLY six feet and a half, to act as if it were a reality. If the mental note still is "I know it's six feet high, but I'm trying to imagine it as six and a half", then it won't work.

In doing so, all force goes beyond the actual barrier to meet the visualized target.

Now contextually, I take the same approach to life. Though I set goals to my life (careers, achievements, etc) to make my life worthwhile, my true goal is not aimed during life itself, but rather after. I choose to believe that by using what I've got - my abilities, talents, strengths - in the service of others, I will reach the goal beyond life itself. My death is the barrier, and my goal outside of it that my LORD dictates is the visualized target.

Life demands risks. I choose to go beyond the unseen, to jump beyond the borders of human knowledge to believe that God exists. Why? Because I feel this is the best path of life for me, I being someone who has a lot of aspirations, yet needs the motivation.

[Hotshot101]

Pretty much he nailed it right on the head.

[My Best Wishes]

Agatio, on Jan 6 2007, 12:23 AM, said:

Sex before marriage with protection is fine 99% of the time, really. I know quite a lot of people from both work and school, and they're very well balanced, nice and easy going people. Christianity places a lot of importance on sex I know, but there really isn't any reason why. Honour your spouse? Plenty of married couples these days have had sexual relations with other people before they got married, and they probably enjoy sex with each other a lot more now because they are both experienced. If 2 people never had sex until they were married, it would be one very awkward honey moon I would imagine.

Drinking doesn't kill you by the way. Of course over-indulgence and alcoholism are detrimental, but that's the same for anything. Eating 100 chocolate bars in one day will make you sick, but in moderation chocolate is fine. I drink, fairly frequently too, but it's not going to be the cause of my death because I don't drink in excess every night, or even every weekend anymore.

The point of not sex before marriage isn't incase you get the girl pregant, it's meant to honour your spouse. You stay chaste and fatihful to your wife and don't commit adultery, it will build a stronger happier marriage with less chance of commiting an infidelity.

As for the drinking, I agree. In small doses I don't think it can have outragous effects on your liver or kidneys or whatever, but again that isn't the point. It still harm's your body and can change your state of mind.

[Elliott]

watch, on Jan 6 2007, 06:15 PM, said:

The point of not sex before marriage isn't incase you get the girl pregant, it's meant to honour your spouse. You stay chaste and fatihful to your wife and don't commit adultery, it will build a stronger happier marriage with less chance of commiting an infidelity.

As for the drinking, I agree. In small doses I don't think it can have outragous effects on your liver or kidneys or whatever, but again that isn't the point. It still harm's your body and can change your state of mind.

I don't care about 'honoring my spouse'. To be honest, I would rather have sex with the person before I married them; it would bring us closer together, give us experience, make us comfortable, and just as importantly: have us both knowing what we like / what makes us happy in terms of sexuality before tying the knot. Also, the same applies for having sex with someone who is not a virgin. They are more experienced, and it will make the sex a lot more enjoyable. I suppose if you're the kind of person who finds that having sex infects you with guilty thoughts and wants to abstain from sex until you're married, and then only have it with the one person for your entire life: good for you. Furthermore, you can't know that abstaining from sex until you're married will decrease the chance of 'committing an infidelity', that's a massive generalisation, and there are plenty of happily married couples out there who had sex before they were married. Your puritan, holier-than-thou attitude is showing through in a very negative way now. Anyway, this is about religion, not sexual matters, so I suppose we should steer away from this particular aspect of the argument.

As for drinking, the whole reason I drinking is to change my state of mind. It loosens me up, removes my inhibitions, and allows me to be much for confident, as I am the introverted type when I'm sober. Plus, when I'm with a bunch of guys and alcohol is involved, it's a lot more enjoyable because of all the crazy things that we get up to / that happen to us, and gives us many a story to tell in the following days. I suppose until you've really experienced a good night out with the lads drinking, then you can't really understand why drinking is such a great social activity.

[Hotshot101]

There is nothing wrong with sex before marriage (still I ain't going to do it), because of the fact that you could get yourself a baby in the process and thats a big risk.

[Eugine]

I find there are problems with sex before marriage.
It destroys the honeymoon, because that's the whole point of the honeymoon really. To experience your partner for the 1st time. Being both n00bs at it you learn with the person you'd share the rest of your life together with (but with divorce becoming the norm now o.o)... I think it'll build the relationship even higher, because you're married, you've now become one under law or you're God emotionally, spiritually and sex now does it physically. I really think all three aspects has to be present. But this is only because of my religion.

[Hotshot101]

well yeah. Sex is Gods creation reincarnated. Its just more then enjoyment its making life.